Discussion: Global Warming, Emission Standards, and Other Environmental Issues II

[Marx]

Yeah, they definitely need to stop dragging their feet.

[Spidey-Bat]

Less government red tape would help. As would Obama waiting to find out whose "ass to kick."

Originally Posted by 8wid

Who else thinks that this is America's Chernobyl? Actually in saying that, also a warning sign of the future decline of the US too.

I don't know about the safety violations BP or specifically this well had, but the Chernobyl power plant was a piece of **** even by contemporary standards. Likely because the Soviet Union was pouring most of their GDP (I think up to 70 or even 80 percent) on the military at that point.

[Marx]

MEASURING SENSORS TO BE DEPLOYED TO OIL PIPE TO CALCULATE FLOW
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/13/gul...ex.html?hpt=T1

[Marx]

BP OIL CONTAINER WASHES UP ON FLORIDA BEACH
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/12/flo...ex.html?hpt=T1

[Carcharodon]

Originally Posted by Marx

MEASURING SENSORS TO BE DEPLOYED TO OIL PIPE TO CALCULATE FLOW
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/13/gul...ex.html?hpt=T1

....just now? Really? They didn't think that would have been a good idea a month ago?

****.

[Marx]

PRESIDENT OBAMA TO ADDRESS NATION TUESDAY NIGHT OVER OIL SPILL
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/13/oil...ex.html?hpt=T1

[Carcharodon]

Originally Posted by StorminNorman

Just got a job with the oil cleanup in Bay County, FL.

Dude. Props.

[Marx]

Originally Posted by Carcharodon

....just now? Really? They didn't think that would have been a good idea a month ago?

****.

Yeah, this should have been done a long time ago.

[Paradoxium]

Originally Posted by Carcharodon

....just now? Really? They didn't think that would have been a good idea a month ago?

****.

Originally Posted by Marx

Yeah, this should have been done a long time ago.

Probably did think it was a good idea, just regulation and red tape. Expect more of this.

[StorminNorman]

Originally Posted by Marx

BP OIL CONTAINER WASHES UP ON FLORIDA BEACH
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/12/flo...ex.html?hpt=T1

Surprisingly, the people who have been training me have been very supportive of BP - and these are long time veteran hazmat people. One of my trainers was working on the spill three days after it happened.

They have the works working 7 days a week, 12 hours a day (you get a day off every 30 days.) . I have been told that when it hits Panama City Beach, it's possible they will go up to 7 days a week, 16 hours a day - this container washed up in PCB.

[Marx]

BP CALL CENTER EMPLOYEE: 'WE'RE NOTHING MORE THAN A DIVERSION'
http://www.khou.com/home/BP-operator...-96259454.html

[Anita18]

Originally Posted by StorminNorman

LOL, the FUTURE decline of the US? You are a few years late on that one.

I think the only country on earth entirely on the up and up economically speaking is China, and we all know the kinds of social problems they're having in the rural areas because of all the rampant development...

It's all about perspective and priorities.

Originally Posted by Marx

Yeah, this should have been done a long time ago.

Especially when they were obviously having trouble capping the thing because they didn't know the upward pressure the spewing oil was exerting.

[Paradoxium]

I have been reading some rumors that Goldman did some big shorts on BP, one day before the spill. I don't know the full extent of it, or if it is Teh Conspiracy Theory.

[Paradoxium]

BP chief Tony Hayward sold shares weeks before oil spill

[StorminNorman]

Originally Posted by Anita18

I think the only country on earth entirely on the up and up economically speaking is China, and we all know the kinds of social problems they're having in the rural areas because of all the rampant development...

It's all about perspective and priorities.

The decline in America is not limited to economics. When America gave up Capitalism, it lost the very principal that made it great.

[The Overlord]

Originally Posted by StorminNorman

The decline in America is not limited to economics. When America gave up Capitalism, it lost the very principal that made it great.

America did not give up capitalism though, heck even in Europe they still have capitalism, heck China is a supposed communist country has a capitalist economy. Unless a government nationalizes all businesses, there is still capitalism to some degree in a country

The Libertarian idealized form of pure of capitalism is not the only valid type of capitalism. Heck you can argue They have no labor or environmental laws, but would you rather work in a Chinese factory or an American one which is governed by labor rules? Would you rather America adopt an Chinese style environmental policy, where factories just dump population in the sky and the water, with no regard for anything?

[Anita18]

Originally Posted by The Overlord

America did not give up capitalism though, heck even in Europe they still have capitalism, heck China is a supposed communist country has a capitalist economy. Unless a government nationalizes all businesses, there is still capitalism to some degree in a country

The Libertarian idealized form of pure of capitalism is not the only valid type of capitalism. Heck you can argue They have no labor or environmental laws, but would you rather work in a Chinese factory or an American one which is governed by labor rules? Would you rather America adopt an Chinese style environmental policy, where factories just dump population in the sky and the water, with no regard for anything?

Plus I think even Stormin would disagree with China's policy of "give up the farmland on which you and previous generations have lived on so we can develop it for the Motherland" stuff.

And I don't think capitalism is "the very principle that makes America great." Lots of countries have had capitalism, it doesn't make us any different. You could even argue that Switzerland and Bermuda (is it Bermuda?) have better versions of capitalism since so many Americans have bank account shelters over there to hide assets to escape our taxes.

What does make us different and truly great (and is the very principle of American greatness) is the fact that Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert can do what they do and have no fear of retribution.

[Paradoxium]

Regulations FTW:

http://energycommerce.house.gov/inde...ries&Itemid=55

http://energycommerce.house.gov/docu....revisions.pdf

From: Morel, Brian P
Sent: Fri Apr 16 02:42:42 2010
To: Vidrine, Don J; Sepulvado, Ronald W
Subject: FW: Modification of Permit to Bypass at Location Surface Lease: G32306 Surface
Area: MC Surface Block: 252 Bottom Lease: G32306 Bottom Area: MC Bottom Block: 252
Well Name: 001 Assigned API Number: 608174116901 has been approved.
Importance: Normal
Attachments: Macondo_RBP 7addition.pdf
Attachments: Macondo_RBP 7addition.pdf
FYI - Approved permit for casing. Still

Congratulations Obama regulation fanboys, the regulators approved the casing changes that - if not approved - would have prevented the oil spill.

[StorminNorman]

Originally Posted by The Overlord

America did not give up capitalism though, heck even in Europe they still have capitalism, heck China is a supposed communist country has a capitalist economy. Unless a government nationalizes all businesses, there is still capitalism to some degree in a country

The Libertarian idealized form of pure of capitalism is not the only valid type of capitalism. Heck you can argue They have no labor or environmental laws, but would you rather work in a Chinese factory or an American one which is governed by labor rules? Would you rather America adopt an Chinese style environmental policy, where factories just dump population in the sky and the water, with no regard for anything?

Lasse-faire capitalism is the only true form of capitalism as it's the only form of capitalism that actually protects the idea of individual rights - which is the philosophical foundation of capitalism.

Originally Posted by Anita18

Plus I think even Stormin would disagree with China's policy of "give up the farmland on which you and previous generations have lived on so we can develop it for the Motherland" stuff.

And I don't think capitalism is "the very principle that makes America great." Lots of countries have had capitalism, it doesn't make us any different. You could even argue that Switzerland and Bermuda (is it Bermuda?) have better versions of capitalism since so many Americans have bank account shelters over there to hide assets to escape our taxes.

What does make us different and truly great (and is the very principle of American greatness) is the fact that Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert can do what they do and have no fear of retribution.

No country has ever had true capitalism. America was the closest to it, though Alexander Hamilton did his best to eliminate it early on.

It's funny you mention the fact that Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert can do what they do with no fear of retribution because that's not true in the America we live today. With the control the government has over industry, it's quite possible that with the proper shift in politics, the Congress could decide to add a new tax on political comedies, or cable networks, or comedy networks, or in other ways that would undermine their success.

Now would our Congress actually do that? Probably not - there is little points to gain from that. But the fact is they have the ABILITY to do so. Look at the talks that are going on about taxing websites in order to save newspapers? What if Network TV starts going under, with the fascist America we have today - our Congress has the ABILITY (whether they use it or not) to tax cable networks in order to save network.

In a Capitalist country, that would be impossible. In a capitalist country, Stewart and Colbert would truly, TRULY, be free.

[chaseter]

Originally Posted by Paradoxium

Regulations FTW:

http://energycommerce.house.gov/inde...ries&Itemid=55

http://energycommerce.house.gov/docu....revisions.pdf


Congratulations Obama regulation fanboys, the regulators approved the casing changes that - if not approved - would have prevented the oil spill.

It was Bush's fault.

[The Overlord]

Originally Posted by StorminNorman

Lasse-faire capitalism is the only true form of capitalism as it's the only form of capitalism that actually protects the idea of individual rights - which is the philosophical foundation of capitalism.

So Norway is not free. Are you actually there is no difference between Norway and North Korea in terms of the level of freedom that exists in these countries?

Also what is more important, the military dictatorship in Chile had a free market economy and they also had a terrible human rights record, does the fact the government didn't interfere with the private sector make the dictatorship in Chile more free then Norway?

I don't even think this true capitalism is even practical or even that's possible, I like the idea of Santa Clause, that doesn't mean he exists.

I think you are chasing a type of freedom that doesn't even exist and thus I don't see why I should care about unpractical ideal?

Speaking about the environment in general, if companies are so great at running their won stuff, why did have this oil leak? How was this caused by over regulation?

I think you are confusing freedom with licence.

Originally Posted by Paradoxium

Regulations FTW:

http://energycommerce.house.gov/inde...ries&Itemid=55

http://energycommerce.house.gov/docu....revisions.pdf


Congratulations Obama regulation fanboys, the regulators approved the casing changes that - if not approved - would have prevented the oil spill.

How is approving the casing an example of over regulation? Isn't the government just giving the casing a pass without inspecting it under regulation? wouldn't be more regulatory to inspection the casing before approving it?

And if BP was great at running their own stuff, why would they use this casing in the first place, did Obama force them to use that casing?

Why are private companies more trust worthy then the government? It seems naive to think one is more trust worthy then the other.

[The Overlord]

Double post.

[Marx]

BP SETS UP ESCROW ACCOUNT FOR GULF DAMAGE CLAIMS
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...id=BOremS7voyP

[StorminNorman]

Originally Posted by The Overlord

So Norway is not free. Are you actually there is no difference between Norway and North Korea in terms of the level of freedom that exists in these countries?

Did I ever compare a regulated country to North Korea?

Norway is free because the government has decided to allow freedom in certain areas - like free speech. They are not completely free though and the government has the ability to restrict rights if they so choose (it just happens that in a Democracy, it takes a great deal of political power to do so - as well as a goal in doing so).

Also what is more important, the military dictatorship in Chile had a free market economy and they also had a terrible human rights record, does the fact the government didn't interfere with the private sector make the dictatorship in Chile more free then Norway?

No. The key is a government that respects individual rights - such a country, like the one America was meant to be, would not have a military dictatorship that abuses the rights of it's citizens.

I don't even think this true capitalism is even practical or even that's possible, I like the idea of Santa Clause, that doesn't mean he exists.

We won't know if it's possible unless we try, right? You know what we DO know is not practical? The mixed/fascist economy that we are left with today. Or have you not noticed the incredible amounts of debt that has been accumulated by America, Canada and Europe?

I think you are chasing a type of freedom that doesn't even exist and thus I don't see why I should care about unpractical ideal?

You can choose to care about whatever you want, it really doesn't matter to me.

Speaking about the environment in general, if companies are so great at running their won stuff, why did have this oil leak? How was this caused by over regulation?

A free market wouldn't necessarily prevent the oil leak - though what's the point in regulation if it couldn't do it either?

What we have seen is that regulation doesn't do anything except raise the prices of goods, curtailing innovation and limiting competition for companies. If the purpose of regulation is to prevent lead from getting into our toys, or disease in our food, or oil in our water - and yet we still get lead in our toys, salmonella and BP, what purpose does it serve?

You know, besides enriching the pockets of politicians?

[Paradoxium]

You are asking you same old loaded questions with crazy assumptions.

The MMS is the administration's regulatory agency. It's not over or under regulation, they didn't enforce it properly. It's not the magical Phlebotinum people make it out to be. The fact is, I posted the public's expectation of Obama here is absurd. There is little he can do.

But if you are the believer in regulation will solve the shortcomings of the market, then I point out where they could have solved it then and there with the MMS, but they didn't. Pro-regulators should be bashing the administration on this - but I wouldn't. It gives a false sense security and moral hazard on controls. Just like the Canadian banks right now. Leveraged up 20 times because the government haz their backs (even the worst bailed out banks were at least half of this leverage).

Which brings us to this: this is an example of property rights fail. The government should not be granting out free license like this to BP to begin with. BP Should have been forced to deal with with the businessmen and fisherman. They would need to reach settlement on conditions, provisions and liabilities etc... They have all the incentive in the world micro and inspect stuff like this because it would damage their business and livelihood. But there was no respect to property rights here, because the government created the moral hazard. All the government manage to do is usurp their property right and limit the liability. Now taxpayers could very well be on the leash for this, all in the name of the mighty regulatory hand who knows better.