The Official Fantastic Four Thread - They're kind of all right.

[roach]

Originally Posted by Tron Bonne

I can't help but wonder if anyone who comments on Batman's 'death' actually read the 'death' in question. I mean, **** a whale guys, it wasn't even a 'death'.

Oh, and I though Johhny's death was fine. Whatever, we didn't see him get his inwards ripped out and eaten, who cares. The moment was still pretty cool.

I think the only complaint people had was that Johnny should have put up more of a fight. No need to see blood and guts. Just that he got a few more panels of the fight

[Tron Bonne]

Originally Posted by roach

I think the only complaint people had was that Johnny should have put up more of a fight. No need to see blood and guts. Just that he got a few more panels of the fight

Yeah, maybe. I don't know, the whole two-page spread of him getting overwhelmed by the Annihilation wave just didn't seem like it needed much more explanation to me.

[TheCorpulent1]

Cap's death was perfect. It wasn't particularly gruesome, but we got to actually see Cap go out exactly the way we all know he'd want to go out--saving lives. Doesn't matter that it was a single life and that it was a guy who was effectively marching him to his execution--it was within his power to save a life, so he did it, even though it cost him his own. Perfect display of heroism from Marvel's shining beacon of heroism.

Ted Kord's death, while a lot of people hate on it, worked for me for similar reasons. Yes, I could've done without the gratuity of actually seeing the bullet splatter a chunk of his head, but the events leading up to it--one man, ignored by his supposed friends due to his past misadventures, investigating a potentially major conspiracy all on his own simply because he knew about it and couldn't sit by and do nothing--that's heroism at its finest once again. We get to see him go through all of this and root for him, so when the worst happens, it hits us in the gut and leaves us feeling like DC's world is profoundly unfair and just wrong.

Johnny's death, on the other hand, didn't really have a lot of build-up. I think the actual scene of his death, with his body obscured beneath this roiling mass of Annihilation Wave bugs, was well done; I didn't need to see anymore of him actually dying. But there should've been more of him valiantly fighting off wave after wave while Ben and the others could do nothing but watch helplessly. Play up the drama of the moment, you know? Drive home to the readers that this is a man's life being spent bravely, heroically before our very eyes in the service of those he loves--quite literally, it turns out--more than life itself. Instead, he just tosses Ben through the portal instead of himself, yells a bit, and three panels later, it's over. That was just anticlimactic to me.

[Tron Bonne]

Originally Posted by TheCorpulent1

Johnny's death, on the other hand, didn't really have a lot of build-up. I think the actual scene of his death, with his body obscured beneath this roiling mass of Annihilation Wave bugs, was well done; I didn't need to see anymore of him actually dying. But there should've been more of him valiantly fighting off wave after wave while Ben and the others could do nothing but watch helplessly. Play up the drama of the moment, you know? Drive home to the readers that this is a man's life being spent bravely, heroically before our very eyes in the service of those he loves--quite literally, it turns out--more than life itself. Instead, he just tosses Ben through the portal instead of himself, yells a bit, and three panels later, it's over. That was just anticlimactic to me.

Yeah, I can see that I guess. For me, I just imagined he went down like a boss (as the kids say nowadays, though I honestly don't know what that means) in the gutters, like I know Johnny would. However, I can understand wanting to see more of it in panel.

[roach]

Originally Posted by TheCorpulent1

Johnny's death, on the other hand, didn't really have a lot of build-up. I think the actual scene of his death, with his body obscured beneath this roiling mass of Annihilation Wave bugs, was well done; I didn't need to see anymore of him actually dying. But there should've been more of him valiantly fighting off wave after wave while Ben and the others could do nothing but watch helplessly. Play up the drama of the moment, you know? Drive home to the readers that this is a man's life being spent bravely, heroically before our very eyes in the service of those he loves--quite literally, it turns out--more than life itself. Instead, he just tosses Ben through the portal instead of himself, yells a bit, and three panels later, it's over. That was just anticlimactic to me.

exactly...let us live thru the last moments of his life as he fights. Make us think he could almost beat them back.
Imagine if he beats back wave after wave and then uses the nova and thinks he's wiped them out then looks to see another wave and then get overwhelmed...thats how a hero goes out

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, basically. Sometimes you just don't skimp on the action.

[roach]

Originally Posted by TheCorpulent1

Yeah, basically. Sometimes you just don't skimp on the action.

a perfect example of a hero going out like a champ is Superman...hell that fight between Doomsday was like 4 issues long

[Dread]

But, what about the deaths of Nova and Quill in THANOS IMPERATIVE? I mean, true, there was a little foreshadowing in issue one, but they didn't have some grand brawl with Thanos. They ran at him with a bellow, there was a flash, and boom, instant presumed death. Was that bad, too? Because I seem to recall everyone here loving the **** out of it. Granted, without a death bag and media promotions, hype for it wasn't lifted to a ridiculous level.

I thought Johnny's "last stand" was fine. Not perfect, but fine. I mean, there was no time to show more butt-kicking panels; Hickman was busy wrapping up the subplots people REALLY care about, like the fate of Nu-Earth ( ) or Sue becoming queen of random fish people for no real logical reason than to give her something to do besides "wife/mother" (okay, I actually liked how the latter ended). I did notice Johnny's efficiency going up about 75% in issue #586, which I commented on in my reviews. Like, suddenly he was acting like a veteran hero who had almost as much experience as Ben. That alone should have been the giveaway, really.

That, and solicitations for ASM's THREE tie in that claimed Spider-Man was mourning his friend. True, he's chummy with all of the Four, but Johnny the most. Plus, Thing was on all those FEAR ITSELF covers.

Y'know what book might suddenly get more out of this? SPIDER-GIRL. In that book, Anya has just lost her father and is grieving. She's friends with the Four through her father (but hasn't told them that she's Spider-Girl, which is a bit daft frankly. That's like if you're friends with Superman in your civilian guise but don't dare tell him you're a superhero, because he might do something horrible like help you in a fight or invite you to a cool team). Well, Sue losing her brother may help her be a supportive figure for Anya if Paul Tobin plays it off like that. Even if he missed the memo that Red Hulk apparently doesn't go on mindless rampages anymore (or so I hear).

[Havok83]

So will the FF continue as a threesome or is their a new member joining soon?

[JustABill]

Basically, my problem with Johnny's death is it's VERY easy to reverse without a major time traveling event or anything of the sort. We see a guy who can go super nova fall down crowded by a bunch of people. I can't believe he's dead. I mean I know for all intents and purposes he's dead for right now, but the way Hickman went about it just did not convince me this was it for Johnny Storm.

[Dread]

Originally Posted by highguard

Well, it is the end of an era. So I should say something on these boards that I peruse and enjoy so much, the long term contributors like the Corpulent1, Dread, Franklyn Richards and Vartha are always around. Today however I think I will add my two cents. Heroes are a rare thing in this world. The guy lauded by the president at a recent memorial as a hero put his life on the line to save the life of a shooting victim instead of running to safety. He was not the only one to run to help but he lived, others died. That is what heroes do despite the possible mortal outcomes. Everyday men and women in the armed services, policemen, firemen, and others risk life and limb to save others, they too are heroes. They are the bravest, selfless souls who bring cheer and inspiration to so many of us.

And so we come to the idea of Super Heroes, as spider man often recalls, with great power must come great responsibility. I loved the idea of super heroes from the time I was a child. I loved the Fantastic Four, loved their bright blue costumes, their family dynamic, the squabbles and the heart warming banter found in every family. Reed and Sue were the adults and if truth be told Johnny and Ben were the children even before there was Franklyn and Valeria. At times they were reckless, immature, thoughtless and annoying and yet we all loved them so. This was a true family, the first family of comics.

As I grew older Reed Richards became more of a favorite with me, but when I was a kid the human torch was my hero. His powers were bright and flashy and visually stunning. I still thrill to the awesome visuals of the torch provided by Jack "King" Kirby, big John Buscema, Rich Buckler, George Perez and even John Byrne whose style grew on me and who can forget Joltin Joe Sinnot the inker supreme. These guys brought me much joy in their portrayal of my childhood hero. I also am humbled by the care these writers brought to these characters, Stan the man Lee and Roy Thomas, Len Wein, Byrne, Claremont, and now I must add Johnathan Hickman to the list of greats.

I think Mr Hickman did not show the final stand because obviously it leaves us with some hope and that is a stunning achievment for a writer of fiction. Some writers are hacks, because they have not taken the time to see the potential of what they have but I now see a glimmer of what Mr Hickman is trying to do. Many complained about the pace of his book but I begin to see a possible masterpiece. He knows the death is but a tease, that the hope of this story is yet to be told, that people want to be inspired, to hope to dream. For many kids that is what comic books were, a vehicle to take us away to magical places, hopeful lives, and heroic people.


It seemed fitting that Johnny would stare at a billion to one odds and shout his defiance into the black abyss before him. I hope for the day when Mr Hickman will show us the true extent of his battle with the bugs. The last page was black, but the Human Torch was always about fire and light, Johnny was never the hero that spider man was, or Iron Man or Thor my current favorite hero but his potential is undeniable.

He is the man child with the fearless heart who always ran off before thinking to the oft consternation of Reed or Sue, the guy with the power of the sun who could fry the flesh off of wolverine without breaking a sweat if he really wanted to. The guy that possibly could take out a billion enemies on one continent. As a child these were the questions I had, why don't they show his true power, the power of the sun, the flame, the fire. Well given what I suspect Mr Hickman is about to do, maybe we will get to see Johnny Storm in all his blazing glory. I hope you survived Johnny, and I thank you Mr Hickman because I suspect that by the time you are done with this story, the Fantastic Four will have changed, and the Human Torch will finally take his place among the greats.

So thank you Mr Hickman for making us and others who may not have grown up with this character care about what happens next.

We are waiting Johnny Storm, find your way back home to your family.

It took me a while to comment on this, but I thought this was a well written tribute post. I have to say, while I was making a series of sprite comics for Examiner to poke some fun at this latest death, it was causing me to actually miss Johnny a little bit more. Good job, dude.

Originally Posted by Havok83

So will the FF continue as a threesome or is their a new member joining soon?

The series will relaunch in March as "FF" which likely stands for Future Foundation. Either the kids will fill in for Johnny, or Spider-Man will for a time. The gamble is it being the Four's 50th anniversary year and not having the actual title in print. Marvel feels that's a thrilling gamble, but it could be brand suicide. It's like McDonald's celebrating the 50th Anniversary of the Big Mac by canceling it, replacing it with "the BM" and increasing it's price by 33% and offering vaguely defined changes to it - all while promoting that the Big Mac turns 50. No sane corporation would do such a thing, but what's great about Marvel is they're a business that doesn't think at all like one - maybe that's why sales are slumping.

[Varient]

Question:
Was Ben's transformation because of the situation or did the timer run out?

[Franklin Richards]

I was thinking about Johnny growing old this week. Then my itunes randomly played one of my old Fantastic Four radio dramas and it reminded me what Johnny Storm would be like when he finally grew old.




This is the end product that writers need to envision with Johnny. Will Johnny "grow up"? Well he doesn't have too. He just has to be older. Bill does some very crazy things but you don't think of him as Paris Hilton or Justin Timberlake. He's an adult with a great sense of humor and great spirit.


THAT'S what grown up Johnny Storm should be like. And Bill made a great Torch in those old radio dramas.

[storyteller]

I didn't need foreshadowing. I can accept that sometimes heroes just die. But it screams "he ain't dead so why should I care?". His body is perfectly fine if he went nova, he could break out of it. I guess the problem is that for someone like him, this 1st wave should be a cakewalk. Basically I need to see an epilogue where he fights the good fight and gets a lethal injury. I mean after what the X-men went through, Kurt and Cable got fitting deaths. If a character is going to die in what could be considered a gruesome death then we better see it.

[Dread]

Originally Posted by Franklin Richards

I was thinking about Johnny growing old this week. Then my itunes randomly played one of my old Fantastic Four radio dramas and it reminded me what Johnny Storm would be like when he finally grew old.




This is the end product that writers need to envision with Johnny. Will Johnny "grow up"? Well he doesn't have too. He just has to be older. Bill does some very crazy things but you don't think of him as Paris Hilton or Justin Timberlake. He's an adult with a great sense of humor and great spirit.


THAT'S what grown up Johnny Storm should be like. And Bill made a great Torch in those old radio dramas.

Before this post, I had no idea that the Fantastic Four even had a radio show in 1975, and that Bill Murrey of all people voiced Johnny Storm in it. This was pre-SNL, naturally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3rhQc666Sg

Given that radio shows basically stopped being terribly popular by around the 1950's, when TV's were no longer as much of a luxury item, it is odd that Marvel even bothered with a radio show. Certainly by 1975, even COLOR SETS were starting to become the norm. VCR's were in the horizon, man. What were they thinking? I suppose it is similar to today, when Marvel is still getting used to this whole "internet" thing, or that fashion styles have changed since the 90's.

Still, those old vinyl records of those FF shows must be quite a collector's item.

[TheCorpulent1]

Originally Posted by Varient

Question:
Was Ben's transformation because of the situation or did the timer run out?

Timer ran out. Remember, the Future Foundation kids said the serum would make him human but there was no way to tell for how long. Turns out it was that long.

[Varient]

Originally Posted by TheCorpulent1

Timer ran out. Remember, the Future Foundation kids said the serum would make him human but there was no way to tell for how long. Turns out it was that long.

So,.. Now everytime this year,.. He'll be human,... Okay,..

[Dread]

As an FYI, Axel Alonso's first major boast as EIC - that FANTASTIC FOUR #587, the "death bag" issue leaked to the press, would be the #1 book of Jan. 2011 is at least true:

http://blog.comichron.com/2011/02/ja...ading-day.html

I expect David Gabriel to still burst through a wall like Kool-Aid Man and say someone was misquoted; he seems to do that a lot.

Of course, it was a big fish in a very small pond. Sales fell a whopping 25-27% from December 2010. DC also didn't ship a slew of well selling titles such as BATMAN, INC., FLASH or GREEN LANTERN. Things were so slow that SPAWN #200 was the 4th best selling book and Image eked out a 7% share of the market - their best showing in about 14 years. That said, January sales are often very low for various reasons. Similarly bad starts to years occurred in 1998, 2005, and 2009, and the year end results were mixed (sales in '98 proved terrible, sales in '05 proved great, and sales in '09 stood pat).

Hard sales figures won't be out for another 2 weeks or so. But in order to be the #1 book, I'd assume that FF #587 had to sell somewhere north of 75,000 copies, if not around 80,000 copies. That would represent a near doubling of their sales from issue #586 and their best numbers since the very start of the Millar/Hitch run. That's why they keep doing death stories, folks. They keep working, at least short term. The long term fix is still an elusive riddle.

[TheCorpulent1]

If they keep doing death stories that are actually good, I don't mind. The problem is when people try to capitalize on that trend with terrible stories. Or, in broader terms, the problem is just terrible stories, of which mainstream comics have a lot.

[Anubis]

Finally got the issue. Pretty good.

[JustABill]

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=30746

So basically it's becoming another thinly disguised Avengers book? Wonderful.

[TheCorpulent1]

Meh. I was with it until I saw Spider-Man on there with his horrible, horrible costume. White's really not a good primary color for comic book costumes...

[kguillou]

Oh god...those white costumes...what are they thinking? I'm all for Spidey joining the team but this is a little much...

Oh and Dread looks like we underestimated FF's sales a bit. The numbers came in and it sold roughly 115,000 copies, nearly 60,000 above its usual sales. Looks like another win for marvel marketing...

[TheCorpulent1]

Dayumn. Black polybags and gratuitous death still work, apparently.

[kguillou]

Which means we'll be seeing plenty more characters die shortly....yay??