Should they make another Punisher movie? - Part 1

[LuisTX85]

Originally Posted by S. Grundy

Not really, I mean look at AMC and The Walking Dead that pushes the boundaries of gore on TV, hell it's more violent than Masters of Horror ever was and that was on Showtime. Language that's shouldn't be a deal breaker it could always just be bleeped and released uncensored on DVD.

A Punisher TV series that isn't on HBO could actually be good, if you don't get hung up on juvenile things like gore/swearing/nidity.

True!,As juvenile as it may be though.....Gore&swearing is a very big part of the Punisher,Nudity would be nice to an extend But I just think that they would need to push the Gore&Violence as much as possible for TV(for most of the season).....IF they really wan't it to be Punisher come to life!

[CrimsonMist]

Originally Posted by LuisTX85

True!,As juvenile as it may be though.....Gore&swearing is a very big part of the Punisher,Nudity would be nice to an extend But I just think that they would need to push the Gore&Violence as much as possible for TV(for most of the season).....IF they really wan't it to be Punisher come to life!

I don't think gore and swearing is all that big a part of The Punisher at all. Hell, to be honest, if there's one thing that always annoyed me about Ennis' MAX stuff and even Aaron's stuff is that the villains ALWAYS curse, almost to the point that it puts Joe Pesci to shame. Really, it gets a little annoying.

As for the gore, if they stay away from War Zone's level of over the top garbage, it'll be fine. I want there to be blood and violence in The Punisher as much as anyone, but I really don't care to see parkour jumpers getting blown to bits or people's heads getting shot off with a Scanners-like explosion of blood. Just kill people. Make it serious and not funny and give it a consequence. Don't make it mindless.

[Shockdingo]

Agreed, gritty intensity unsettling and amoral atmospheres are important. It needs to feel like we're in a seedy vile crapsack world. Violence is important, but gore? Meh, theoretically a Punisher movie with Pg-13 levels of violence could work. It's all about the content and how it's presented. Do I want a pg-13 Punisher? No. I just don't want a movie that pushes the envelope for the sake of doing so while letting the other content sour.

And hah, I thought I was the only one who was distracted by all the profanity. It's weird, I'm so used to it in movies, real life and such so it tends not to phase me unless it's a little ol' granny who's dropping F-bombs, but yea, the Max books tend to over do that, plus the injection of the bad guys using over the top racial slurs. I mean I get it, these guys are scum, but at times it feels like it's overcompensating just cause it's an adult brand. I don't know, that's just me.

[S. Grundy]

Well, the Punisher was basically PG/PG-13 for decades before Ennis came along. As long as it is well written, that is all that should matter.

[bigscore]

i think at the very least it should be as dark as TDK..

[Punisher Rising]

I don't mind the excessive swearing and violence in the Max series, since real-life criminals talk just like that and the dialogue being that way makes it more realistic and harsh.

[The Overlord]

Originally Posted by S. Grundy

Well, the Punisher was basically PG/PG-13 for decades before Ennis came along. As long as it is well written, that is all that should matter.

Except the Ennis stories are the best ones, that's why I think Punisher works better as R-rated.

[S. Grundy]

So Stevenson has been talking with Marvel about old Frank. Nothing's definite though.

[Red.Star.Killer]

Originally Posted by S. Grundy

So Stevenson has been talking with Marvel about old Frank. Nothing's definite though.

Looking back at the punisher's of cinemas past I have actually liked every single one because they fit their film for their time. However, that being said the best punisher is still imo Thomas Jane. Now I know some might be like "Oh god not another Jane fan boy let it go!", but it's true. Out of all the Punishers his film and portrayal was the best.

The Cons:

Yes it wasn't in New York, yes he only lost his wife and kids (not his whole family), yes John Travolta kinda hammed it up (not as bad as West though), and yeah he only went all *bang bang bang* towards he last 8 minutes.

The Pros:

Realistic action, great portrayal by Jane, and even though there were some "huh wtf moments", the story was way more seriously. Jane not only looked like Frank, but he sounds like him too.

Sure Ray was big and mean looking, but it takes more than that to be a believable vigilante. To me a vigilante is someone who is dead inside. They got nothing else to live for, they have only one goal, and that goal is all they have. Without anything to live for they basically have an attitude about them that reads screw it if I die, I die. I get that from Jane, from Ray I get a live action video game. Bulletstorm comes to mind.

That being said, if there is any former Frank Castle coming back to give it another go it should be TJ. If they want someone new Jon Hamm or Holt McCallany.

[Alexei Belyakov]

Originally Posted by S. Grundy

So Stevenson has been talking with Marvel about old Frank. Nothing's definite though.

He shouldn't play him again. All associations to the horror that was Punisher Warzone need to be removed if they're going to reboot. The guy was basically a cardboard cut-out of the Bradstreet covers without an ounce of substance. Naturally the director is to blame for this, but in the end great actors transcend crappy material, hell even Routh in his his pseudo-Reeve persona was better than this guy.

On the other hand, Jonathan Hensleigh's Kill The Irishman looks fantastic.

Thomas Jane did the best job. He became the very essence of the character using as little dialogue as Stevenson did - yet wasn't a walking dynamite stick. He was a man on a suicidal quest for revenge that drove home a very low budget Tampa Punisher movie. I remember when I first saw it how quickly I connected with the guy. The torture in his eyes. Thing is, Jane's a terrific actor. Hung, Stander and The Mist are just a few of his gems. They should bring him back, specially now that he's coming off 2 back-to-back Golden Globe nods for playing Ray Drecker.

They should bring back Hensleigh too and throw him a decent budget for once. With a hundred mil that guy can do what Nolan did with Batman to The Punisher.

[TheVileOne]

I'd say no. Punisher has failed as a movie character three times already.

[Alexei Belyakov]

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

I'd say no. Punisher has failed as a movie character three times already.

They've also gone cheap on him all three of those times. He's never gotten a decent treatment by a studio.

Also, the '04 Punisher wasn't really a failure. It made back its budget and made enough on DVD to warrant a sequel. Had they not reduced the budget to scraps, Jane and Hensleigh woulda done a good follow-up set in New York.

The character just needs a real budget for an adaptation. Marvel wanted him back and I'm sure they'll invest their usual $100+ million on him when they make the film.

[Red.Star.Killer]

Originally Posted by Alexei Belyakov

They've also gone cheap on him all three of those times. He's never gotten a decent treatment by a studio.

Also, the '04 Punisher wasn't really a failure. It made back its budget and made enough on DVD to warrant a sequel. Had they not reduced the budget to scraps, Jane and Hensleigh woulda done a good follow-up set in New York.

The character just needs a real budget for an adaptation. Marvel wanted him back and I'm sure they'll invest their usual $100+ million on him when they make the film.

Budget doesn't mean crap, just look at District 9. The fault falls solely on the shoulders of lionsgate. They marketed the film poorly, whoever thought releasing Punisher 04 the same week as Kill Bill Vol.2 and a week before Man on Fire was just nuts. As much as I love Frank, he's not getting a budget like Iron Man or Wolverine. He's one of the most simple, realistic, and easiest characters to bring to the screen, he don't need a budget for a transformers movie. He just needs a director and studio with their heads out of their asses.

Also, the dvd doesn't matter. A film is released in the cineplex to make its money there and there only, dvd/blu-ray is the bonus. But we lucked out and LG was willing to go from that but the direction they went (War Zone) was just terrible.

[TheVileOne]

Blah blah blah budget blah blah blah DVD sales. Movie was a mediocre effort and failure.

They rebooted several years later instead of doing an actual sequel. That's all I really have to say there.

Also Punisher isn't a $100 million character. Sorry he just isn't.

[S. Grundy]

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

I'd say no. Punisher has failed as a movie character three times already.

Well, Marvel is doing something with the character whether you think its right or not, so suck it up. If Marvel by themselves can't make the character at least a minor success then that's when they should put the character away.

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

Blah blah blah budget blah blah blah DVD sales. Movie was a mediocre effort and failure.

They rebooted several years later instead of doing an actual sequel. That's all I really have to say there.

Also Punisher isn't a $100 million character. Sorry he just isn't.

Yeah, he isn't a $100 million dollar character, he just needs a modest budget and a good director.

Also, PWZ was going to be a sequel with Jane, he left because he didn't like the direction and Lionsgate rebooted.

[TheVileOne]

Excuses excuses.

Also I love the Punisher characters and story. But he's been pretty much a failure to adapt to movies. If the Jane movie was a bigger success, I doubt they would've had as much trouble doing another sequel with him in it.

Marvel doesn't seem to be in any hurry to do a new movie right now. They've got enough on their plate.

[S. Grundy]

The problem with the proposed Jane sequel was he wanted to take the movie into a gritty urban crime drama place and Lionsgate wanted the silliness that became PWZ. That's why he left and the movie was rebooted.

If anything happens it will probably be post Avengers. But then who knows, it could be sooner.

[TheVileOne]

Or maybe that's just what the writers and producers turned Punisher: War Zone into.

And yeah there is nothing going on with a Punisher movie pre-Avengers.

[Alexei Belyakov]

Lions Gate is 100% responsible for the Hensleigh/Jane franchise falling apart. The first film made enough of a profit to warrant a second one but the studio got sloppy. Here's how it went.

In late 2004 they greenlit Punisher 2 and Hensleigh had written an "ok" first draft by June 2005. They were gonna go into production that same year for a 2006 release.

But then in '06 Hensleigh did an interview where he said they rejected his latest draft since it would run them $70-80 million. He departed the project soon after that. I read that final draft and it was spectacular. It was like The Punisher meets The Wire. But yeah, the scope was high so it woulda cost them at least $70 Million, specially since they wanted New York and Hensleigh wanted to shoot in actual New York and not Canada (Warzone ).

They brought in writers after Hensleigh left to rewrite the film into a cheaper product. Jane stayed on hoping the rewrites could still deliver a solid film but with a lower budget. In early '07 the Kurt Sutter draft was turned in, but along with it the studio decided to lower the budget even more. Walter Hill and John Dahl were approached to direct but couldn't believe how little the studio wanted to spend and turned it down. Jane realizes they want the cheapest film possible and exits.

Now that Jane's gone, they know they can go as cheap as humanly possible and hire Lexi Alexander (who trained under Chuck Norris and loves his movies) to take the project and add her own flavor. She did and we got the horror that was Warzone. Ironically, the studio thought they could get away with an incredibly cheap Punisher movie thinking it was impossible for it to tank since it cost so little. It made $8 Million domestically.

Hensleigh's latest film looks fantastic. He comes from the school of Sam Peckinpah and Don Siegel. With the right budget and Thomas Jane, they could deliver a gripping Dark Knight-caliber Punisher film.

Hopefully Marvel will do him justice. But if they start trying to link him to all their other characters, he'll get lost in translation and we'll be let down yet again.

He needs an adaptation like Nolan's take on Batman and Aronofsky's take on Wolverine. A guy on his own just living a life of dread and despair, killing criminals while evading capture. No uber violence/exploding heads. No Iron Man/Incredible Hulk cameos and Shield subplots. Just Frank's never-ending journey of isolation. I hope Marvel goes after David Fincher (even though I want him for Daredevil) or David O. Russell.

[ChickenScratch]

I wouldn't start calling Darrens Wolverine any good till we have seen it. Good points otherwise.

[Alexei Belyakov]

Originally Posted by ChickenScratch

I wouldn't start calling Darrens Wolverine any good till we have seen it. Good points otherwise.

Are you really doubting Darren?

[TheVileOne]

They should've shot in Canada and just had some New York exterior shots. The first movie did not do well enough to justify such a bigger budget.

[S. Grundy]

There's a small mistake in your post Alexei. Jane actually wanted to bring in Walter Hill to rewrite and direct and Lionsgate said no, and that played a significant part Jane finally leaving. John Dahl was close to coming on board but decided not to do the movie because of how cheap Lionsgate wanted to go with it regarding budget and shooting schedules.

Also, I found this. It's kinda hearsay, but according to this guy, Garth Ennis actually preferred the Thomas Jane Punisher. Interesting if true.

[ChickenScratch]

Originally Posted by Alexei Belyakov

Are you really doubting Darren?

No, but I can't say anything about a movie I (and nobody else) never saw.

[Eelectro 2]

i am so torn when it comes to these films. the 2nd punisher had a better frank, i liked the gritty gruesome content but the story for the first film was better, i liked that story a lot better but cringe at some of the performances (mainly frank and saint) but love the action scenes and creativity of the kills. i would hate to say they should try to make a whole new one because there hasnt been a totally successful punisher film, i think his character would almost be better to be featured in another marvel character film as a bad guy at first but then somewhat of an ally. to who? idk