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Old 06-14-2016, 08:07 AM   #1
Peyton Westlake
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Default Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

Here is one thing I thought of that may seem small but I wondered did it really impact the DC film universe.
How much did not introducing each JL member in their solo movie first hurt DC movies?
If they followed the Marvel formula of having the origin movie of each character first then , having us wait for them to team up in the end, would that have helped ?
I thought that was the route they were taking when Man Of Steel came out, but they went right into BvS having Batman and the others already having existed even though we never were introduced to any of them.

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Old 06-14-2016, 08:59 AM   #2
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

The problem was trying to combine elements of the Dark Knight Returns and Doomsday. Oh and btw, let's introduce Wonder Woman and the rest of the Justice League. There was too much storyline and not very well told to be honest. And the whole e-mail thing felt like an afterthought.

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Old 06-14-2016, 09:15 AM   #3
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

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The problem was trying to combine elements of the Dark Knight Returns and Doomsday. Oh and btw, let's introduce Wonder Woman and the rest of the Justice League. There was too much storyline and not very well told to be honest. And the whole e-mail thing felt like an afterthought.
I agree with you in regards to the e-mail plot idea.
Seeing literally a minute of Flash & Aquaman,etc was not what it was built up to be.

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Old 06-14-2016, 09:20 AM   #4
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

WB really wanted to do a Batman v. Superman and since the Dark Knight Returns is seen as one of the greatest Batman stories next to Year One, they tried to utilize that. But, they had to give a decent reason for them to fight and it wasn't a good one nor was the climax with "Martha".

They should have done a Tower of Babel storyline, with Batman assembling Wonder Woman, Flash, Aquaman and Cyborg as a contingency plan to stop Superman. Then throw in Bizarro, Cyborg Superman, as a way to falsely blame Superman for some disaster and I think that would have been a better told story.

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Old 06-14-2016, 09:30 AM   #5
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

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WB really wanted to do a Batman v. Superman and since the Dark Knight Returns is seen as one of the greatest Batman stories next to Year One, they tried to utilize that. But, they had to give a decent reason for them to fight and it wasn't a good one nor was the climax with "Martha".

They should have done a Tower of Babel storyline, with Batman assembling Wonder Woman, Flash, Aquaman and Cyborg as a contingency plan to stop Superman. Then throw in Bizarro, Cyborg Superman, as a way to falsely blame Superman for some disaster and I think that would have been a better told story.
I agree 100% about Doomsday being the catalyst for them to unite was a poor choice.
Doomsday would have been better served as the villain for another solo Superman movie.

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Old 06-14-2016, 09:35 AM   #6
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

I don't think it was a factor. Batman has had numerous films and just came off an enormously successful trilogy. Audiences are more than familiar with him as a character at this point. Superman too, for that matter, although he did get the origin film in this continuity.

It is a much different situation than from Marvel, where they (aside from Hulk) were working with characters that the audience largely didn't know about.

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Old 06-14-2016, 09:51 AM   #7
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

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I don't think it was a factor. Batman has had numerous films and just came off an enormously successful trilogy. Audiences are more than familiar with him as a character at this point. Superman too, for that matter, although he did get the origin film in this continuity.

It is a much different situation than from Marvel, where they (aside from Hulk) were working with characters that the audience largely didn't know about.
True, but having said that...........outside of their big two characters of Batman & Superman, do audiences really know anything about the rest of DC?

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Old 06-14-2016, 10:00 AM   #8
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

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True, but having said that...........outside of their big two characters of Batman & Superman, do audiences really know anything about the rest of DC?
No, but Superman and Batman are always going to be the draws for Justice League. Nobody is going to show up to that film to see Cyborg or Aquaman anyways, just like nobody goes to The Avengers to see Hawkeye and Falcon.

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Old 06-14-2016, 10:09 AM   #9
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

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No, but Superman and Batman are always going to be the draws for Justice League. Nobody is going to show up to that film to see Cyborg or Aquaman anyways, just like nobody goes to The Avengers to see Hawkeye and Falcon.
Yes.
Thats why you can make the argument maybe DC should have introduced us to them in a solo film first. Thats why marvel did it that way I assume.
They would have gained new fans who might want to see someone else other then the big 2. No ?

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Old 06-14-2016, 02:24 PM   #10
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

I think the DCEU was always going to be hurt no matter which tactic they used. If they had followed suit of Marvel and introduced most of the JL in solo films there would be heavy criticism for copying them and there would be criticism for the JL film coming so far after Marvel's Avengers film. But also it makes sense to start off with Superman and then introduce Batman and Wonder Woman in the same film. People think that WW was wasted but she did what was needed. She showed that she was a badass and could stand at the same level as the other two which whilst the public may know of her they don't realise how powerful she is. I do agree that it feels forced and overcrowded with the computer files of the others. But the best thing to come from BvS was how hyped everyone is for WW, Aquaman and Flash films. Everyone knows of the Flash but Aquaman was still known but for all the wrong reasons. That 30 second clip brings guaranteed viewers to their future films. Cyborg probably got the least amount of info but the newest generation probably know more about him than they do Aquaman or Green Lantern. I remember how confused some people were when Green Lantern in 2011 was white. Do you think had a Hawkeye film come out straight after Iron Man 2 with no prior introduction would have done well? The files were necessary.

But DC have also done themselves a favour by doing Suicide Squad so soon. It shows the world the different direction they're going with their films and provides a range of villains to choose from to be used in other films. The problem with Marvel has been their villains. To me, all this is benefitting DC and BvS took a hit for it. There were other problems with BvS such as choosing Doomsday and trying to mix two huge storylines but for the long term future I think it will definitely benefit them.

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Old 06-14-2016, 02:35 PM   #11
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

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Yes.
Thats why you can make the argument maybe DC should have introduced us to them in a solo film first. Thats why marvel did it that way I assume.
They would have gained new fans who might want to see someone else other then the big 2. No ?
I doubt that there is much of an audience to be gained that would be interested in Flash or Cyborg that wouldn't be interested in Batman or Superman. A property like Suicide Squad that is completely different, maybe, but not the Justice Leaguers.

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Old 06-14-2016, 03:47 PM   #12
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

It's all in the execution. Either approach could have worked if it were done well.

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Old 06-14-2016, 05:06 PM   #13
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peyton Westlake View Post
Here is one thing I thought of that may seem small but I wondered did it really impact the DC film universe.
How much did not introducing each JL member in their solo movie first hurt DC movies?
If they followed the Marvel formula of having the origin movie of each character first then , having us wait for them to team up in the end, would that have helped ?
I thought that was the route they were taking when Man Of Steel came out, but they went right into BvS having Batman and the others already having existed even though we never were introduced to any of them.
Nah, they just simply didn't make films that should have been more crowd-pleasing to better hype the audience up for JL.

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Old 06-14-2016, 06:49 PM   #14
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

The biggest issue the DCEU will always face is that MoS was never set up to be a film series featuring anyone else but Superman. MoS failed to meet expectations, they panicked and they threw Batman and Wonder Woman into the mix hoping to fix things, only to make the situation worse.

The lesson here for any other studio who wants to attempt a movie universe is that you need to properly plans this stuff out, or at the very least have a solid idea of where you are going. MoS was never suppose to be the launching point for the DCEU, it was suppose to be the launching point for a new Superman series. The DCEU was built on shaky foundations and now they are just trying to stop it from crumbling.

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Old 06-14-2016, 06:58 PM   #15
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

I'm not sure that's really the problem. Outside of the post credits scene and maybe SHIELD, nothing in Iron Man indicated a bigger universe. You didn't have Tony say "this company was my father's biggest obsession - after Captain Rogers." It was just a movie about Iron Man, until Nick Fury showed up and changed the movie industry forever.

The problem is just that MOS and BVS aren't movies that gelled with the public.

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Old 06-14-2016, 07:07 PM   #16
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

Marvel was at the very least pencilling in the idea, which is more than what WB did.

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Old 06-14-2016, 07:09 PM   #17
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

But Iron Man, from it's inception, was one part of a bigger whole. They were always planning on an interconnected universe. So every movie that followed it felt like a natural fit.
Man of Steel feels like a much more cohesive, singular experience that is, on the whole, more satisfying than BvS. And I say that as someone who dislikes Man of Steel. I wouldn't call this the biggest issue that the DCEU will have to face but JMC is right in that it was birthed on shaky ground and it has done them no favors. I believe MoS went into pre-production around the same time Geoff Johns claimed they intended to keep everything separate.

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Old 06-14-2016, 08:12 PM   #18
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

I think so, too. Either way, right up until the time of release, everyone was saying that MOS took place in its own universe, just like Nolan's movies.

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Old 06-14-2016, 08:43 PM   #19
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

Yep, even Russell Crowe said the plan was for a Superman trilogy. MoS was never meant to be a launching pad, a launching pad was simply shoved in there.

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Old 06-14-2016, 08:58 PM   #20
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

In an alternate universe, Wonder Woman was released to critical acclaim (85% on Rotten Tomatoes) in 2013, making over 700 million in the box office and hitting the ground running on the DCEU.

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Old 06-14-2016, 09:09 PM   #21
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

In retrospect Wonder Woman would have been the perfect film to launch it.

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Old 06-14-2016, 09:55 PM   #22
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

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Yep, even Russell Crowe said the plan was for a Superman trilogy. MoS was never meant to be a launching pad, a launching pad was simply shoved in there.
And that's fine; it's much easier to "retcon" a shared universe when you start with Superman instead of Batman. The execution just needs to not be piss poor.

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Old 06-14-2016, 10:45 PM   #23
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

I say it hurt a little bit. What makes the Marvel approach work so well is that you built awareness and fanbases for the individual characters in their own movies, then brought them all together, thus bringing fans of the various movies together (even if there is some overlap). By doing this, you build hype and investment in the characters as they go on their journies. Look at BvS. Why should we care about these characters? You can't just rest back on the iconic nature of Superman and Batman to carry the movie (particularily because we got a Superman drastically different than the general audience's notions about him and an older Batman). Marvel gave the audience a reason to care about characters like Iron Man, Thor and Captain America.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Erzengel View Post
WB really wanted to do a Batman v. Superman and since the Dark Knight Returns is seen as one of the greatest Batman stories next to Year One, they tried to utilize that. But, they had to give a decent reason for them to fight and it wasn't a good one nor was the climax with "Martha".
Problem is, it's not really a good Superman story.

I think instead of a "vs" movie they should've gone with a World's Finest movie. You can still have some elements of intial antagonism, but the movie should focus on the teaming up of polar opposite characters who are both necessary in their own ways. Superman and Batman are the genre in their own way, and it's their yin yang relationship that makes their dynamic so great.



Look at BvS. You can't contrast Batman and Superman when both of them are grim and gloomy.

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Old 06-14-2016, 10:59 PM   #24
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peyton Westlake View Post
Here is one thing I thought of that may seem small but I wondered did it really impact the DC film universe.
How much did not introducing each JL member in their solo movie first hurt DC movies?
If they followed the Marvel formula of having the origin movie of each character first then , having us wait for them to team up in the end, would that have helped ?
.
WB is trying to avoid the imitator label. They're very late to the party and trying to go through the process of something that Marvel Studios started 8 years ago may have seemed like a huge task for casual viewers. It was the right call to introduce them in this fashion, but the creative universe wasn't hitting on all cylinders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peyton Westlake View Post
True, but having said that...........outside of their big two characters of Batman & Superman, do audiences really know anything about the rest of DC?
Anyone for whom sci-fi/fantasy is attractive has some idea of the Justice League, in particular the Big 5 and Aquaman. Although younger people will obviously know much more about Marvel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus View Post
No, but Superman and Batman are always going to be the draws for Justice League. Nobody is going to show up to that film to see Cyborg or Aquaman anyways, just like nobody goes to The Avengers to see Hawkeye and Falcon.
Cyborg is extremely popular with teens and pre-teens due to the 2 Teen Titans series. They'll definitely be asking their parents to take them to see his film since he'll be the only Titan, for the time being, to inhabit the DCEU.


Quote:
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Yep, even Russell Crowe said the plan was for a Superman trilogy. MoS was never meant to be a launching pad, a launching pad was simply shoved in there.
Green Lantern was rumored to be the start of the DCEU, but there was nothing in the film outside of Amanda Waller to suggest a larger story. MOS was retrofitted with a few shared universe elements, but it seems like WB was struggling even then to come up with a clear vision of how they were going to put the DC universe into live action.

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Old 06-14-2016, 11:14 PM   #25
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Default Re: Did this hurt or help the DC film universe?

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I say it hurt a little bit. What makes the Marvel approach work so well is that you built awareness and fanbases for the individual characters in their own movies, then brought them all together, thus bringing fans of the various movies together (even if there is some overlap). By doing this, you build hype and investment in the characters as they go on their journies. Look at BvS. Why should we care about these characters? You can't just rest back on the iconic nature of Superman and Batman to carry the movie (particularily because we got a Superman drastically different than the general audience's notions about him and an older Batman). Marvel gave the audience a reason to care about characters like Iron Man, Thor and Captain America.




Problem is, it's not really a good Superman story.

I think instead of a "vs" movie they should've gone with a World's Finest movie. You can still have some elements of intial antagonism, but the movie should focus on the teaming up of polar opposite characters who are both necessary in their own ways. Superman and Batman are the genre in their own way, and it's their yin yang relationship that makes their dynamic so great.



Look at BvS. You can't contrast Batman and Superman when both of them are grim and gloomy.

Well said. I agree.you would think that any confrontation would be about ideologies and I was shocked that they didn't go there and not in a good way.

I think not starting of with solo films was fine. Like Flint Marko said, it's about the execution.

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