Discussion: The Second Amendment II

[Paradoxium]

Or smash his knee caps with a baseball bat, waterboard him, or make him watch Smallville

[BlackLantern]

but you're not using a gun, so it's ok

[Violet Lantern]

People don't break into your house to hurt you in most cases, they break in to steal your stuff. You're just being delusional if you're trying to argue otherwise.

[BlackLantern]

and you're making uninformed assumptions

at least I know I'm full of s***

[Violet Lantern]

Originally Posted by BlackLantern

I live in Connecticut and yes its quite awful....

well if someone is in your house that is not invited and there intent is to take things or harm you or your family and you request that they leave and they do not, at what point is it vigilantism to harm them?

what if I tie the guy to a chair and beat him with a baseball bat?? no gun use there

Tying someone to a chair and beating them is going way beyond self-defense. If you're able to get to the point of tying them up, you've successfully defended yourself. Anything beyond that would be illegal and you would deserve to go to jail for it IMO.

[BlackLantern]

Originally Posted by Violet Lantern

Tying someone to a chair and beating them is going way beyond self-defense. If you're able to get to the point of tying them up, you've successfully defended yourself. Anything beyond that would be illegal and you would deserve to go to jail for it IMO.

at what point does self defense cross into vigilantism??

equal or excessive application of force?

[Violet Lantern]

Originally Posted by BlackLantern

and you're making uninformed assumptions

at least I know I'm full of s***

There's nothing uninformed about it. Simple ****ing logic dictates, people break into houses to steal. Get real, man.

[Violet Lantern]

Originally Posted by BlackLantern

at what point does self defense cross into vigilantism??

equal or excessive application of force?

More than what's needed to defend yourself. Just think,man. I promise it's not that hard.

[BlackLantern]

Originally Posted by Violet Lantern

More than what's needed to defend yourself. Just think,man. I promise it's not that hard.

I know that....but when is that point? we're feral creatures, it's not like you or I are going to stop and actually debate that in our head

we're going to defend our "home" and make sure that person thinks thrice before doing anything like that again

plus, I can't keep an erection if I don't have a gun in the house sooo your whole utopian gun free paradise isn't going to work for me

[Violet Lantern]

....

[Violet Lantern]

Originally Posted by BlackLantern

I know that....but when is that point? we're feral creatures, it's not like you or I are going to stop and actually debate that in our head

we're going to defend our "home" and make sure that person thinks thrice before doing anything like that again

plus, I can't keep an erection if I don't have a gun in the house sooo your whole utopian gun free paradise isn't going to work for me

Don't mischaracterize what I'm saying. A society without guns isn't a utopia, it's just not as dangerous as our current society. It's also a bit silly of you to act like it's some far-fetched fantasy when most other developed countries are already like that.

Your compensation issues are your own problem.

[BlackLantern]

but I expected the typical MSM reaction about guns after the Giffords shooting and that didn't really get that happen

a lot of people in office know that touching gun control (at least right now) is an express boot in the ass out of your seat

[Violet Lantern]

Originally Posted by BlackLantern

but I expected the typical MSM reaction about guns after the Giffords shooting and that didn't really get that happen

a lot of people in office know that touching gun control (at least right now) is an express boot in the ass out of your seat

Popular sentiment is, of course, not a measure of whether or not something is right or wrong. My dad would have told you, popular sentiment in the South while he was growing up here certainly wasn't in favor of de-segregation.

He was my hero politically. It took guts to be a white kid in the deep South in the 1950s and 60s who openly supported civil rights. He was actually beat up for it many times. When he was in junior high, when Kennedy was assassinated it was announced over the intercom and everyone in his class except him and one other boy(who was the only other liberal) cheered. The teacher didn't join in but she had a big smile on her face.

I know, that's pretty sick.

[BlackLantern]

well he's dead and the world is a much different place.....people are mad, they want someone to blame and lash out at

my company just got bought by our main competitor, I may not have a job next week and I blame the Commies and Glenn Beck

[SentinelMind]

Originally Posted by Violet Lantern

People don't break into your house to hurt you in most cases, they break in to steal your stuff. You're just being delusional if you're trying to argue otherwise.

First off, you have a right to protect yourself and your possessions. It is utterly ridiculous to suggest that someone should just play role of victim to a house invasion if they have an opportunity to do otherwise.

Secondly, you don't know for sure what a person is going to do once he tries to break into your house. Neither you nor the home owner is a mind reader. Read post several pages back of an article elderly man being tazered in home invasion by someone asking for money. Many instances the criminal "intends" to steal but in moment of panic or second thoughts ("oh no, the guy saw my face...I'm just trying to feed my children..let me get rid of the evidence..) decides to get more violent. You cannot assume a person committing a home invasion is going to be "rational".

A home invasion is an act of aggression. Whether its theft, rape, or murder, it is up to the homeowner to decide how he or she wants to protect himself.

[Violet Lantern]

Originally Posted by SentinelMind

First off, you have a right to protect yourself and your possessions. It is utterly ridiculous to suggest that someone should just play role of victim to a house invasion if they have an opportunity to do otherwise.

No you don't. It is the police's job to protect your possessions. You don't have the right to play vigilante. You DO have the right to defend yourself if the intruder attacks you. However, if he does not and you seek that person out(when it's not necessary for self-defense) and assault them, you're committing a criminal act IMO.

Originally Posted by SentinelMind

Secondly, you don't know for sure what a person is going to do once he tries to break into your house. Neither you nor the home owner is a mind reader. Read post several pages back of an article elderly man being tazered in home invasion by someone asking for money. Many instances the criminal "intends" to steal but in moment of panic or second thoughts ("oh no, the guy saw my face...I'm just trying to feed my children..let me get rid of the evidence..) decides to get more violent. You cannot assume a person committing a home invasion is going to be "rational".

A home invasion is an act of aggression. Whether its theft, rape, or murder, it is up to the homeowner to decide how he or she wants to protect himself.

You just don't have a realistic viewpoint on this. MOST home invasions are committed to STEAL, nothing else. As long as you don't try to play cowboy you don't have to worry about being hurt in most cases.

Do you honestly think anyone who would break into a house to steal, is also a murderer? Get real. If that's what you think then you don't understand the typical burglary at all. Having come from a rough neighborhood in which burglaries have a tendency to happen sometimes, and in which I've known people who have unfortunately been involved in that sort of thing, trust me, most burglars aren't killers.

[SentinelMind]

Originally Posted by Violet Lantern

No you don't. It is the police's job to protect your possessions. You don't have the right to play vigilante. You DO have the right to defend yourself if the intruder attacks you. However, if he does not and you seek that person out(when it's not necessary for self-defense) and assault them, you're committing a criminal act IMO.

I would never advocate going after someone with a gun. I do advocate allowing someone the right to decide for themselves to own a gun in their own house to protect themselves against an intruder. Washington DC has had gun ban for several decades and gun crimes have increased by raw number and per capita every year.

You just don't have a realistic viewpoint on this. MOST home invasions are committed to STEAL, nothing else. As long as you don't try to play cowboy you don't have to worry about being hurt in most cases.

This is ridiculous. You're talking about a home invasion. You're already experiencing a crime..in your own house. You can't sit there and make assumptions about this home invader who is willingly violating the law and disrespecting your property and privacy. Just because most burglars just want money doesn't mean that the one breaking in your house at that moment isn't going to consider doing worse. You haven't responded to the case scenario few pages back of elderly man who was being robbed was still being tasered by a potential druggie who wanted as much money as possible. You don't have the burden to assume this home invader is just "rational" and "just wants money". You have the right to decide how much force is necessary to defend yourselves from criminals.

[Violet Lantern]

Originally Posted by SentinelMind

I would never advocate going after someone with a gun. I do advocate allowing someone the right to decide for themselves to own a gun in their own house to protect themselves against an intruder. Washington DC has had gun ban for several decades and gun crimes have increased by raw number and per capita every year.

I'm sure that has nothing to do with Virginia being right next door.

Most gun crimes in the city of New York for example are committed with guns that come in from out of state, from places with less strict gun laws.

Originally Posted by SentinelMind

This is ridiculous. You're talking about a home invasion. You're already experiencing a crime..in your own house. You can't sit there and make assumptions about this home invader who is willingly violating the law and disrespecting your property and privacy. Just because most burglars just want money doesn't mean that the one breaking in your house at that moment isn't going to consider doing worse. You haven't responded to the case scenario few pages back of elderly man who was being robbed was still being tasered by a potential druggie who wanted as much money as possible. You don't have the burden to assume this home invader is just "rational" and "just wants money". You have the right to decide how much force is necessary to defend yourselves from criminals.

Of course you're going to determine what amount of force is necessary to defend yourself. I'm not trying to dispute that sometimes it would be necessary to use force to do so. I'm just saying, if you do go beyond what is necessary, that is criminal.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Violet Lantern

People don't break into your house to hurt you in most cases, they break in to steal your stuff. You're just being delusional if you're trying to argue otherwise.

So what you are saying is, we should all just leave our doors unlocked..?

[SentinelMind]

No Kel, you should just give them milk and cookies along with your possessions. They're only trying to rob you, be rational.

[Kelly]

Good grief Sentinel, that is SANTA CLAUS, doofus....

[Violet Lantern]

Originally Posted by Kel

So what you are saying is, we should all just leave our doors unlocked..?

I'm not dignifying that with a response.

[Kelly]

And yet.....you did....

That's the thing about message boards, when you respond to say "no response"....actually you did....


But that's ok, it was tongue in cheek....

I actually DESPISE GUNS....with a passion... I guess its my Quaker Ancestry, but I REALLY HATE GUNS...

[chaseter]

I can't imagine what they would do if they busted in my front door and I am sitting in the living room watching tv. Apparently they will apologize for the damage and then kindly ask if they can steal my stuff.

[Kelly]

I have two dogs....they sound really mean on the other side of the door.....

BUT, as soon as they came in, my dogs would show them where the good stuff is....