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Old 03-22-2011, 10:01 PM   #76
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@ The Batman and Kurosawa

I disagree. Clark Kent is the real person. Superman is his creation.

Look at it realistically (and not Nolan realistically) Clark came before Superman,correct?

He was raised as a human,right? You're thinking of him as Jesus Christ,that is outdated,and that is why we can't relate with him.

Superman had to come from somewhere,and that is Clark Kent. An alien,raised as a human being,who see's our world for what it is and wants to save it.

The Donnor movies showed human elements,yes. But they weren't enough.

You basically want another Brandon Routh.

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Old 03-22-2011, 10:03 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Rodrigo90 View Post
@ The Batman and Kurosawa

I disagree. Clark Kent is the real person. Superman is his creation.

Look at it realistically (and not Nolan realistically) Clark came before Superman,correct?

He was raised as a human,right? You're thinking of him as Jesus Christ,that is outdated,and that is why we can't relate with him.

Superman had to come from somewhere,and that is Clark Kent. An alien,raised as a human being,who see's our world for what it is and wants to save it.

The Donnor movies showed human elements,yes. But they weren't enough.

You basically want another Brandon Routh.
Have you read many superman comics?

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Old 03-22-2011, 10:06 PM   #78
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Default Re: Character development and personalities

I'm essentially describing Superman from Birthright,cause that in my opinion, is the best way to go.

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Old 03-22-2011, 10:08 PM   #79
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Superman has had to hide a good bit of himself as Clark his entire life. Privately with his parents he is himself, but he created the Clark Kent persona pretty early on. Maggin explains Clark/Superman best:

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Originally Posted by Elliot S! Maggin
Superman is the real person and Clark is the construct. Clark is a brilliant character and the creation of Superman. My take on Clark is a lot like what Chris Reeve said Clark was when he did the first movie: "Either Superman is a consummate actor or Lois Lane is an idiot. I don't want Lois to be an idiot, so Superman must be a good actor."

Everybody has a demon, everybody has a hobby, a habit that is part of his character and he can't break. Superman's is Clark. Mine is writing, Bill Clinton's is the saxophone, Jimmy Carter had to teach Sunday School, even when he was president. Luthor's demon is Superman. Superman needs Clark the way most of us need dreams.

I think the idea that Clark is the real character and Superman is a device is completely wrong-headed—because at some point, Clark has to die... and probably Superman won't, at least not permanently.
Jerry Siegel explained it like this:

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Originally Posted by Jerry Siegel
Clark Kent grew not only out of my private life, but also out of Joe Shuster's. As a high school student, I thought that someday I might become a reporter, and I had crushes on several attractive girls who either didn't know I existed or didn't care I existed. So it occured to me: What if I was really terrific? What if I had something special going for me, like jumping over buildings or throwing cars around or something like that?

One night, when all the thoughts were coming to me, the concept came to me that Superman could have a dual identity, and that in one of his identities he could be meek and mild, as I was, and wear glasses, the way I do. The heroine, who I figured would be some kind of girl reporter, would think he was some kind of worm; yet she would be crazy about this Superman character who could do all sorts of fabulous things. In fact, she was real wild about him, and a big inside joke was that the fellow she was crazy about was also the fellow whom she loathed.
You take out the nebbish Clark Kent, you take away Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster because Clark Kent is them, by their own admission.

In Maggin's second novel, Superman is revealed to be Clark Kent by the novel's villain C.W. Saturn, and therefore Superman loses one of the few possessions that is precious to him-Clark. During a TV interview, Perry White explained things best:

From Elliot S! Maggin's Miracle Monday:

Quote:
"Whatever it is this little twerp's got," Perry continued on the subject of the mischievous otherworldly pixie, "Superman can't really handle it. Maybe it is magic. That was what we used to call it in the old days when Clark was with the Daily Planet and most newspapermen, except for Clark and a few others, hadn't yet discovered their responsibility to be precise in their writing. Whatever it is, Superman's vulnerable to it. And whatever it is, Miss Wells seems to have it or something like it in at least as great a measure as...umm—"

"Mxyzptlk," Jimmy said.

"Right."

"So what are you saying, Mr. White?"

"I'm saying, Dan, that whatever power this girl has is something from which Superman is really unable to protect us. I'm also saying that unlike—Olsen?—"

"Mxyzptlk."

"Unlike Mix-el-plix, whatever, this girl's intentions don't involve having fun. She has willfully waged a psychological battle against our friend Superman, taking away his clearest tie with the world around him. She has kept him occupied with trivia ranging in seriousness from zany inconveniences like upside-down buildings and vanishing walls to genuine crises like locust plagues and epidemics of maddening eczema. Superman knows as well as we do that she must be stopped. I assume he hasn't yet stopped her, but simply defused what she has done so far, because of two reasons. Firstly, he doesn't know what her intentions are and he would like to know. Secondly, he may not have devised a way of stopping her short of killing her."

"Oh, now you're going off the deep end. Really." It was Jimmy Olsen, and it was immediately clear that he was sorry he had said it.

"What deep end is that?" Dan Reed asked, doing his job.

"No, I was just—" Jimmy hesitated but saw it was not going to work. "Well, maybe I'm wrong, but she hasn't done anything but try to get Superman's goat, as you said. She's just more unfriendly about it. She hasn't killed anyone, right?"

"Except Clark." It was the first thing Lois had said since she said hello to Reed at the show's opening.

"Clark. Well, yeah, but there wasn't an actual murder involved. Hey, what's with everyone feeling like somebody really died? I mean, Clark was one of my best friends—maybe my best friend—and I'm kind of really happy for him that he turned out to be Superman. It couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. I mean, that's confusing, I guess, but I'd really like it if he'd come by sometime for lunch or coffee the way he used to. I don't know why he doesn't."

"What would you call him?" Reed asked.

"Call him?"

"What would you call Clark Kent if he came by for a cup of coffee with you?"

"Oh, I get you, I'd say, 'Hi, Superman.'"

"That's part of the point I was making," Perry White said, picking it up again. "If Superman masquerades as Clark secretly, he's living among us as a natural Earthman. If, on the other hand, he puts on those glasses and we all know it's really Superman, he becomes grotesque, a dangerously schizoid personality. Maybe one of the purposes of this Kristin Wells is to discredit Superman, to drive him past the brink of sanity. Who's to say?"


People who think of Superman in terms of Superman being a creation of Clark Kent's are falling for the Byrne Marvelization of the character. Like Tony Stark or Peter Parker, or even like mutants such as Bobby Drake, Marvel characters are born human and become superheroes-even if they are mutants, their powers don't generally manifest right away. But Superman came to Earth already a God. He's never had a normal human life, and Byrne tried to turn him into a Marvel character by making his powers manifest slowly. It's not a bad story, it's not a bad character-but it isn't Superman. Clark Kent was always Superman really, and so he uses his human side to escape.


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Old 03-22-2011, 10:14 PM   #80
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@ The Batman and Kurosawa

I disagree. Clark Kent is the real person. Superman is his creation.

Look at it realistically (and not Nolan realistically) Clark came before Superman,correct?

He was raised as a human,right? You're thinking of him as Jesus Christ,that is outdated,and that is why we can't relate with him.

Superman had to come from somewhere,and that is Clark Kent. An alien,raised as a human being,who see's our world for what it is and wants to save it.

The Donnor movies showed human elements,yes. But they weren't enough.

You basically want another Brandon Routh.

RoughNtumble's reaction is essentially mine.

That and the lex luthor pic with the word "WRONG" in giant white letters.

And all this "outdated" talk is BS. No one's calling Bruce Wayne's "Act like a bored billionaire in public" routine outdated, and he's basically done that for 70+ years.

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Old 03-22-2011, 10:25 PM   #81
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OK,I see your point. But to establish Superman,where does that drive come from? I mean,Clark didn't suddenly wake up one day and say to himself "I'm going to be a goody two-shoes superhero". That drive,that personality,that motivation had to come from somewhere. (It would make even JC himself green with envy)

I believe if that is shown,it will make the audience connect with him on a stronger level,that's all I'm saying.

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Old 03-22-2011, 10:26 PM   #82
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I'm essentially describing Superman from Birthright,cause that in my opinion, is the best way to go.
I think you should re-read Birthright, because they established which is the true persona, even showed the devising of the mild-mannered Clark Kent persona.

Mark Waid's (Writer of Birthright) commentary in the hardcover version:

"Don't look at me. I didn't make it up. Siegel and Shuster did. Superman's the real guy, Clark's the disguise, and that's one of the masterstrokes that made Superman unique and brilliant for so long. One crucial key to Superman is that when he's wearing the suit, when he's flying around, he's not playing a role. He's not "playing" at being a superhero. This is who he is and who the Kents raised him to be--an angelic, unselfish champion who uses his gifts for the betterment of mankind. Wearing the suit simply means he can act openly without fear of alienating others. Metropolis Clark, on the other hand, is a fabrication that serves a critical purpose--no matter how old, how mature Superman gets, he'll never lose that basic human need to be accepted by his peers..."

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Old 03-22-2011, 10:30 PM   #83
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EDIT: Duplicate.

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Old 03-22-2011, 10:31 PM   #84
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EDIT: Duplicate

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Old 03-22-2011, 10:35 PM   #85
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Well,yes. Clark Kent=Superman=Metropolis Clark.

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Old 03-22-2011, 10:36 PM   #86
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Well,yes. Clark Kent=Superman=Metropolis Clark.

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Old 03-22-2011, 10:40 PM   #87
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Precisely. Clark was never raised and was not born to be a normal man. From his childhood on, his life was a preparation for greatness. And so the meek Clark that he developed as a way to walk among and even a little bit below mortal men became a prized possession for Kal-El.

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Old 03-22-2011, 11:00 PM   #88
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Precisely. Clark was never raised and was not born to be a normal man. From his childhood on, his life was a preparation for greatness. And so the meek Clark that he developed as a way to walk among and even a little bit below mortal men became a prized possession for Kal-El.
I see what you mean. I technically didn't mean that Superman is a disguise. What I meant was that Superman was raised by people,so he has a human personality. Clark Kent IS Superman. Superman is the symbol born from Clark's hope to save and inspire. Cause he is after all an Alien,but he has always been an inspiration that even an Alien,can be more human than human's themselves. But he still has to have flaws in the movie,as he does in the comics.

I just dont want another bland Routh.

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Old 03-22-2011, 11:14 PM   #89
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I see what you mean. I technically didn't mean that Superman is a disguise. What I meant was that Superman was raised by people,so he has a human personality. Clark Kent IS Superman. Superman is the symbol born from Clark's hope to save and inspire. Cause he is after all an Alien,but he has always been an inspiration that even an Alien,can be more human than human's themselves. But he still has to have flaws in the movie,as he does in the comics.

I just dont want another bland Routh.
Routh had flaws...they just were creepy flaws, not endearing flaws. And of course Superman has a human personality, and he is the product of his upbringing, but there was nothing about his upbringing that was normal, although Ma and Pa tried to make it as normal as they could.

Clark is obviously a device created by Superman to disguise his true identity, but he is also the way Clark can intermingle with other people and not have Superman expectations leveled on him. Little is expected of Clark, especially in manners of braveness. Not even Superman can handle being Superman 24/7...he needs Clark Kent, as Maggin says, like most of us need dreams.

This is also where Bill got it wrong in Kill Bill-and by that I mean Bill the character, not Tarantino the filmmaker-because Clark Kent is not Superman's critique of the human race. Bill understands Superman almost completely except for that one point, but it is a big point. Yes, he was born Kal-El, not Clark Kent. Yes, Superman's clothes are his blankets. Yes, Clark Kent is a creation. But he is not a critique. Bill sees it that way because Bill is a villain. Clark Kent is in actuality, Superman's love letter to the human race. Clark is the fragility of humanity personified, and Superman is the potential of humanity personified. They need one another to be complete. Superman humbles himself as Clark because humility is a virtue and Superman is the virtuous, altruistic man that Jonathan and Martha Kent raised Clark Kent to be.

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Old 03-23-2011, 12:16 AM   #90
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This is also where Bill got it wrong in Kill Bill-and by that I mean Bill the character, not Tarantino the filmmaker-because Clark Kent is not Superman's critique of the human race. Bill understands Superman almost completely except for that one point, but it is a big point. Yes, he was born Kal-El, not Clark Kent. Yes, Superman's clothes are his blankets. Yes, Clark Kent is a creation. But he is not a critique. Bill sees it that way because Bill is a villain. Clark Kent is in actuality, Superman's love letter to the human race. Clark is the fragility of humanity personified, and Superman is the potential of humanity personified. They need one another to be complete. Superman humbles himself as Clark because humility is a virtue and Superman is the virtuous, altruistic man that Jonathan and Martha Kent raised Clark Kent to be.
Finally someone said what I've been wanting to say for a long time about Kill Bill and didnt have the right words.

Very well said.

Clark IS a love letter to mankind.

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Old 03-23-2011, 12:17 AM   #91
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I'm gonna have to watch kill bill again

I have the dvds but my damn tv won't input aaaaaaaarrrhhhh

I saw it before I became I superman fan, so I don't even remember a superman part being in it

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Old 03-23-2011, 12:29 AM   #92
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Honestly, I think that both "Superman" and "Clark Kent: The Reporter" are just two halves of the same person that Clark has had to modify somewhat when it comes towards presenting them to everyone else.

I think that Clark on the farm is more closer to who he really is because that's where he was raised and where he was allowed to really be normal.

Superman, is a larger than life character that was created as a result of Clark's ideals and based off of his own heroism and courage, but even that person imho was modified in order to present this larger than life character that no one would expect to have a secret life as a regular person on earth.

The reporter persona is basically him having to tone himself down, where I wouldn't say that he needs to act like a dork and bumbling idiot like how Reeve did it, but someone who's more reserved and mild mannered in the sense.

At least, that's my take on it. And honestly, for a character like Superman to survive and be relevant in today's society, you can't keep portraying him in the way that he was originally presented as 70 years ago.

He can't be perfect and he's gotta have struggles, realistic ones. I believe that Superman does represent the best on what humanity can be, but in the same time, he's probably one of the most of loneliest beings on the planet and he has to make sure that he never lets his temper and emotions get the best of him since it would lead to disastrous results, which is something that a lot of us have experienced in our own ways as well.
Now thats more like it.

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Old 03-23-2011, 12:51 AM   #93
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Precisely. Clark was never raised and was not born to be a normal man. From his childhood on, his life was a preparation for greatness. And so the meek Clark that he developed as a way to walk among and even a little bit below mortal men became a prized possession for Kal-El.
Prepared for greatness?

Granted, I'm sure that Jonathan and Martha had a strong feeling within them that Clark was meant for great things in life, but I don't think that Clark was raised in a way that was preparing him for greatness.

As far as I've read and seen, Clark has always struggled with wanting to have a normal life, and the fact that his parents are constantly worried that someone bad may find out about his secret doesn't add less to the pressures that he must be feeling every day on trying to conceal his powers.

I think one of the big things that I've read people being attracted towards the character was how Superman came from such humble beginnings.

I mean you have a guy who was raised and adopted by a farmer and his wife, while Clark grew up with somewhat of an average childhood, heck I'm sure that since he had to conceal his powers at times that he came off as a dork towards other students.

And as far as I understand, Clark never thought of himself as someone who was destined for greatness.

Honestly, the way you're describing the character and the way that Zack Snyder and Nolan have been describing their take, I think you're going to be hugely disappointed with the end result by the end of 2012.

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Old 03-23-2011, 02:19 AM   #94
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hey kurosawa, what do you think of all-star superman (the comic)?

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Old 03-23-2011, 03:13 AM   #95
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well, i hope in the new movie, we can know more about each of the characters.

for clark kent, I would like to know about his hobby, his flavorite food, the food that make him nauseous. his flavorite gesture.

for jimmy olsen, i hope they'll give him more 'details' than just a photographer.

for lois lane, i would like to see more on her charm and personality that make clark fall for her.
I'm sorry, but nobody really cares what Jimmy Olsen does when he's not being a photographer... Or what food makes Clark nauseous... assuming it could happen... I don't know, just seems a little unnecessary...

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Old 03-23-2011, 03:14 AM   #96
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Double post

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Old 03-23-2011, 03:17 AM   #97
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Prepared for greatness?

Granted, I'm sure that Jonathan and Martha had a strong feeling within them that Clark was meant for great things in life, but I don't think that Clark was raised in a way that was preparing him for greatness.

As far as I've read and seen, Clark has always struggled with wanting to have a normal life, and the fact that his parents are constantly worried that someone bad may find out about his secret doesn't add less to the pressures that he must be feeling every day on trying to conceal his powers.

I think one of the big things that I've read people being attracted towards the character was how Superman came from such humble beginnings.

I mean you have a guy who was raised and adopted by a farmer and his wife, while Clark grew up with somewhat of an average childhood, heck I'm sure that since he had to conceal his powers at times that he came off as a dork towards other students.

And as far as I understand, Clark never thought of himself as someone who was destined for greatness.

Honestly, the way you're describing the character and the way that Zack Snyder and Nolan have been describing their take, I think you're going to be hugely disappointed with the end result by the end of 2012.
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Old 03-23-2011, 03:17 AM   #98
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Prepared for greatness?

Granted, I'm sure that Jonathan and Martha had a strong feeling within them that Clark was meant for great things in life, but I don't think that Clark was raised in a way that was preparing him for greatness.

As far as I've read and seen, Clark has always struggled with wanting to have a normal life, and the fact that his parents are constantly worried that someone bad may find out about his secret doesn't add less to the pressures that he must be feeling every day on trying to conceal his powers.

I think one of the big things that I've read people being attracted towards the character was how Superman came from such humble beginnings.

I mean you have a guy who was raised and adopted by a farmer and his wife, while Clark grew up with somewhat of an average childhood, heck I'm sure that since he had to conceal his powers at times that he came off as a dork towards other students.

And as far as I understand, Clark never thought of himself as someone who was destined for greatness.

Honestly, the way you're describing the character and the way that Zack Snyder and Nolan have been describing their take, I think you're going to be hugely disappointed with the end result by the end of 2012.
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Old 03-23-2011, 03:57 AM   #99
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Prepared for greatness?

Granted, I'm sure that Jonathan and Martha had a strong feeling within them that Clark was meant for great things in life, but I don't think that Clark was raised in a way that was preparing him for greatness.

As far as I've read and seen, Clark has always struggled with wanting to have a normal life, and the fact that his parents are constantly worried that someone bad may find out about his secret doesn't add less to the pressures that he must be feeling every day on trying to conceal his powers.

I think one of the big things that I've read people being attracted towards the character was how Superman came from such humble beginnings.

I mean you have a guy who was raised and adopted by a farmer and his wife, while Clark grew up with somewhat of an average childhood, heck I'm sure that since he had to conceal his powers at times that he came off as a dork towards other students.

And as far as I understand, Clark never thought of himself as someone who was destined for greatness.

Honestly, the way you're describing the character and the way that Zack Snyder and Nolan have been describing their take, I think you're going to be hugely disappointed with the end result by the end of 2012.
Well said!

Imo, one of the good things Byrne did and IMPROVE was to make Superman's powers appear gradually as he aged and absorbed more solar power. I prefer this take over a superpowered baby. Smallville did this well in the first seasons.


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Old 03-23-2011, 04:48 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by SuperDaniel View Post
Well said!

Imo, one of the good things Byrne did and IMPROVE was to make Superman's powers appear gradually as he aged and absorbed more solar power. I prefer this take over a superpowered baby. Smallville did this well in the first seasons.
Agreed. It just makes more sense that with the more exposure to yellow sunlight radiation, that any kryptonian would gain stronger from that of a normal being.

Heck, while it wasn't fully developed and shown on screen, I think the idea for SR was to show that Clark wasn't as healthy and strong as he was as an adult and that his vision was kind of bad until his powers started kicking into full gear during his late teens.

Anyways, in regards to the topic's discussion, I honestly want to see a version of Clark Kent/Superman where you see him struggling with a lot of the very things that we struggle in life, on the very things that a person in his situation would realistically struggle on.

What gives Clark the courage to fully come out to the public in the form of Superman after having concealed himself for so long? How does he expect the general public to react to his presence?

Show things like Clark actually wanting to have some of the normal things that we take for granted at times: having a family of his own and have friends that he can confide in.

I mean, wasn't there a part in the BR issue where Clark was surprised and amazed that Lois wasn't afraid of Superman upon first meeting him? That could be a key thing to hit on as well.

I think that two, if not three of the main things that I would feel a modern day Clark Kent struggling with would be:

1. Where am I from?

2. What do I do with my life (in regards to his powers)?

3. Is there someone out there for me or am I meant to be alone forever?

These are realistic things that someone in his position would ask himself. Heck, it's something that I'm sure a lot of normal people have gone through life asking themselves.

The minute you have a version of Clark/Superman, where he comes off viewing humanity from that of a God like figure's POV, is when you'll lose relevance and empathy for the character today.

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