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Old 04-24-2011, 01:39 AM   #26
blksuperman2
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Default Re: Invincible - Part 1

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Originally Posted by TheVileOne View Post
I don't agree with any of your points. They don't make any sense.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Why did she even need to lose the baby . . . or even get pregnant for that matter? Or why couldn't Mark even tell she was pregnant?

OMG! SHE'S GOING TO RAISE THE BABY ALONE! Goodness gracious. The woman is able enough to put together her own little private home in the freaking Serengetti, she sets up a superhero money funnelling account for Mark all on her own, and she risks her life day in and out as a superhero.

Sure she was in a really awkward position but geezus.
That's exactly what I was thinkin'. Her powers are nurturing, she creates life, she really wouldn't act like that. Yeah she's made dumb choices but this is huge. Why even bother showing that she and Mark's mom were hanging out all this time? She obviously didn't feel that alone. Oh well, like most have stated recently I'll continue to stick around and read this series but I've lost all of the love I had for it.

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Old 04-24-2011, 02:53 AM   #27
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Default Re: Invincible - Part 1

Now here is my other point, its viewpoint/opinion-ish but whatever:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
In my opinion if she TRULY loved Mark she would never have aborted the baby. If she's afraid of being alone with her and Mark's child she would NOT be alone. I just can't believe a woman in love with Mark would willingly and voluntarily . . . "abort" a piece of both of them they created together. A piece of Mark that could live on in their child even if Mark were never to return. That is how we truly survive through our descendants. For her to abort the unborn child of the man she apparently loves that the two created together because she was afraid of having to raise the child alone . . . I just can't buy that.

The other point is that for her to say that when Kirkman shows her being friendly with Mark's mother . . . um you aren't alone woman!


Basically the last issue of Invincible reminded me of Green Lantern when Jade dumped Kyle. What happened there? Kyle went to fight an intergalactic war with drug dealers to keep them from getting to earth. Jade stayed on Earth and promised to "wait" for Kyle. So at the urging of John Stewart's then girlfriend, an alien Merayn, she decides to go out with some random blonde dude. She and the blonde dude then start bumping uglies in KYLE'S OWN APARTMENT AND BED. Kyle returns home to find this man in his shower and Jade wearing his clothes. Jade is completely unapologetic saying how she's paid rent in her apartment blah blah blah and basically acting like a ****ing ****, skank whore.

She later has a heart to heart with Kyle whining about how she was having trouble defining herself and how she got so much better being with The Outsiders (the blonde douchebag boyfriend was never to be seen again and he was not even seen nor heard of in Outsiders while Jade was a member).

And what does Jade do when she's revived in Blackest Night? She walks over to Kyle and shoves her tongue down her throat. I ****ing hate Jade.

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Old 04-24-2011, 11:23 AM   #28
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Default Re: Invincible - Part 1

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Originally Posted by TheVileOne View Post
Now here is my other point, its viewpoint/opinion-ish but whatever:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
In my opinion if she TRULY loved Mark she would never have aborted the baby. If she's afraid of being alone with her and Mark's child she would NOT be alone. I just can't believe a woman in love with Mark would willingly and voluntarily . . . "abort" a piece of both of them they created together. A piece of Mark that could live on in their child even if Mark were never to return. That is how we truly survive through our descendants. For her to abort the unborn child of the man she apparently loves that the two created together because she was afraid of having to raise the child alone . . . I just can't buy that.

The other point is that for her to say that when Kirkman shows her being friendly with Mark's mother . . . um you aren't alone woman!


Basically the last issue of Invincible reminded me of Green Lantern when Jade dumped Kyle. What happened there? Kyle went to fight an intergalactic war with drug dealers to keep them from getting to earth. Jade stayed on Earth and promised to "wait" for Kyle. So at the urging of John Stewart's then girlfriend, an alien Merayn, she decides to go out with some random blonde dude. She and the blonde dude then start bumping uglies in KYLE'S OWN APARTMENT AND BED. Kyle returns home to find this man in his shower and Jade wearing his clothes. Jade is completely unapologetic saying how she's paid rent in her apartment blah blah blah and basically acting like a ****ing ****, skank whore.

She later has a heart to heart with Kyle whining about how she was having trouble defining herself and how she got so much better being with The Outsiders (the blonde douchebag boyfriend was never to be seen again and he was not even seen nor heard of in Outsiders while Jade was a member).

And what does Jade do when she's revived in Blackest Night? She walks over to Kyle and shoves her tongue down her throat. I ****ing hate Jade.
Epic.

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Old 04-24-2011, 08:27 PM   #29
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Exclamation Re: Invincible - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVileOne View Post
I don't agree with any of your points. They don't make any sense.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Why did she even need to lose the baby . . . or even get pregnant for that matter? Or why couldn't Mark even tell she was pregnant?

OMG! SHE'S GOING TO RAISE THE BABY ALONE! Goodness gracious. The woman is able enough to put together her own little private home in the freaking Serengetti, she sets up a superhero money funnelling account for Mark all on her own, and she risks her life day in and out as a superhero.

Sure she was in a really awkward position but geezus.
When Mark left,
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Eve was in the very early stages of pregnancy. She only knew via one of those test strips and most women don't start to "show" until around the 2nd or 3rd month, and Mark was gone by then. She got pregnant because she and Mark had been exclusive and likely having sex without a condom. Even if they HAVE used a condom, given Viltrumite powers and prowess, it might not have been as effective. So long as Mark and Eve slept with each other a lot, it was only inevitable that she would get pregnant. Heck, it's a small miracle Eve didn't get impregnated by Rex Splode before she and Mark became an item.

Raising a child is a lot different than creating a house from nothingness or even setting up a business. We're told by no end of people in real life and in fiction that there's nothing quite like raising a child. Raising a child without its father, even with the support of friends, is also not easy. If you screw up with a house or a business, those are just things - they can be replaced or rebuilt. Screwing up a child is far more serious stuff.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVileOne
My point is this isn't the book I fell in love with several years ago. It's become something just forced, dull, and mundane. The Viltrumite War was whiffed

Anyway, I kind of do want to see Mark and Eve break up now. The last issue was just so . This book has jumped the shark. The book is just meh now. I just don't buy into Mark and Eve anymore. They really aren't the characters I fell in love with or grew to like either. Eve turned out to be a real drama queen.
I'll admit that some aspects of the Viltrumite War were not flawless, but I still enjoyed the heck out of it. The ending was a little awkward - I liked the end result, but not the justification of getting there. But it was a better conclusion than a damn lot of Marvel stories I paid far more money to read about.

I imagine writing Eve is difficult, as it is for many heroines, is that Kirkman has to straddle that balance of making the character strong while still vulnerable. If you make too strong a heroine, then it seems like she needs nobody and you wonder why she ever bothered to marry in the first place - at times, Susan Richards fell under this category (she is obviously so much stronger and more savvy than Reed, at times it was difficult to see what she saw in him; Reed always ignores her and the kids, and it quick to blast or nerf his son's powers). On the other hand, make a heroine too flawed, and they can become annoying - at times Rogue fell under this category ("Ah can't touch anyone, but ah'll flirt like crazy").

If Eve was too perfect she'd be boring. But if she's too flawed she gets annoying to some. I don't mind her being flawed, especially as she's atypical of other characters, as Dupli-Kate stated. Eve's always had "a lot of baggage", even in her prelude mini's, so to me it isn't unusual. Her origin was a nightmare, and her parents aren't good. When she dated William, either he was still "bi-curious" or she literally could not tell he was homosexual - which isn't uncommon for some women.

The dilemma with Mark and Eve breaking up is there is literally no option left for either. If Rex were still alive, it actually might be interesting seeing Eve perhaps see him as a more mature individual since they dated and give him a second chance - but, that's a moot point since he's dead and Kirkman has insisted he is staying that way. William is "out of the closet" at this point and thus not into Eve. As for Mark, he has no other options. He could get back together with Amber, especially if her boyfriend continued to abuse her, but that might seem more regressive. There is no way any new female character would be taken seriously as a long term option at this point; every fan would see her as a temporary girlfriend and likely complain that Kirkman had broken up "the couple". The only other female characters in the series are Anyssa and Galaxia, and both are villains.

Admittedly, while it is unlikely, it might be interesting if Anyssa saw Mark as a proper mate because he managed to successfully kill Conquest and wanted to date him for strict "reproductive" purposes. I've seen worse subplots.

That isn't to say that Kirkman doesn't mess up. He got Rex's powers wrong in his death scene and didn't name Anyssa on panel originally, which he at least admits.

I actually wouldn't have minded some more done with Rick Sheridan, who was turned into one of the Reanimen. He was "mended" and issued cybernetic parts, but that's an easy path to being a superhero or other combat figure if need be. Instead he's sort of been abandoned to the background. New supporting cast members are never a bad thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BAH HUMBBUG! View Post
Agreed, I mean Grand Regent Thragg could kill both Mark and his dad with no problem at all and still do as he pleases with Earth, instead he offers then a truce? That's the dumbest thing ever.

He doesn't care for them, hates them and he keeps them alive? Why? Because he cares for the live of all Viltrumites? BS. If he did he would have stepped in and killed everyone they were facing without losing one life of his people.

It just doesn't make any sense, it feels like Kirkman is just making it overly dramatic on purpose. Oh no! A costume change! Aaaaaaaand now Mark is back in his original costume that he started out in.

It's like Coca~Cola introducing new coke just to spike sales since they knew everyone would hate it and want old coke back.
As I stated before, I do agree that the Viltrumite War, which I enjoyed, was not executed flawlessly.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
The reasoning of Thragg's leaving Nolan and Mark alive is flimsy at best even after multiple reads. I assumed that at best, he "needed" Mark and Nolan to agree to "a truce" to appease some sense of Viltrumite honor and war nature, because if they hadn't, Thragg would have been obligated to destroy earth in revenge. The Viltrumites are a rigid society with a "survival of the fittest/war at all costs" system, as Nolan has stated and demonstrated.

On the other hand, simply killing the two and taking over Earth on his own terms would satisfy that Viltrumite honor without having some of his surviving generals give him bizarre looks. But then we wouldn't have a series anymore. In a way, the Viltrumite War was always a story that risked being written into a corner; I still believe Kirkman chose the best option, even if the final few miles getting there were bumpy. Again, I have seen X-Men comics derailed for years of time for far dumber reasons.

I suppose Thragg wanted Nolan and Mark alive as a symbol of what the Viltrumites had to become in order to survive - interbreeding with humans and perhaps even actually caring for their own young and families; Thragg stated or implied as much. Maybe he saw them as pawns of Thaddeus, who he saw as a personal betrayer and who he slew himself, more than outright enemies. Maybe he didn't want any more Viltrumites to die, even enemies, because their numbers were now so low. I suppose there are no prize answers there. Like I said, I like the status quo set up after the war, although Thragg's expositionary reason to get there was a little shaky.


The costume changes have officially gotten annoying. At first it was amusing with Kirkman making a commentary about how mainstream comics kind of over react to costume changes. But it has been a card played too often. The first change was major enough, but then the tweaks got more and more modes, and now its back to the old duds. Kirkman is a guy who I see as being critical of many of the things mainstream comics do, then doing them himself and shutting up. He whined about mainstream comics setting prices above $2.99 - then started selling some comics of his own at $3.50 and suddenly has gotten off the soapbox (admittedly, I'd rather Marvel priced comics at $3.50 than $3.99, of course). He's complained about events and deaths in comics, yet does them himself (including writing IMAGE UNITED whose lateness has become BATTLE CHASERS legendary). And as stated, Invincible's costume changes have gotten old.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVileOne View Post
Now here is my other point, its viewpoint/opinion-ish but whatever:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
In my opinion if she TRULY loved Mark she would never have aborted the baby. If she's afraid of being alone with her and Mark's child she would NOT be alone. I just can't believe a woman in love with Mark would willingly and voluntarily . . . "abort" a piece of both of them they created together. A piece of Mark that could live on in their child even if Mark were never to return. That is how we truly survive through our descendants. For her to abort the unborn child of the man she apparently loves that the two created together because she was afraid of having to raise the child alone . . . I just can't buy that.

The other point is that for her to say that when Kirkman shows her being friendly with Mark's mother . . . um you aren't alone woman!


Basically the last issue of Invincible reminded me of Green Lantern when Jade dumped Kyle. What happened there? Kyle went to fight an intergalactic war with drug dealers to keep them from getting to earth. Jade stayed on Earth and promised to "wait" for Kyle. So at the urging of John Stewart's then girlfriend, an alien Merayn, she decides to go out with some random blonde dude. She and the blonde dude then start bumping uglies in KYLE'S OWN APARTMENT AND BED. Kyle returns home to find this man in his shower and Jade wearing his clothes. Jade is completely unapologetic saying how she's paid rent in her apartment blah blah blah and basically acting like a ****ing ****, skank whore.

She later has a heart to heart with Kyle whining about how she was having trouble defining herself and how she got so much better being with The Outsiders (the blonde douchebag boyfriend was never to be seen again and he was not even seen nor heard of in Outsiders while Jade was a member).

And what does Jade do when she's revived in Blackest Night? She walks over to Kyle and shoves her tongue down her throat. I ****ing hate Jade.
I have to admit I read "****ing ****, skank whore" in a Mel Gibson voice. Not that I believe you're in any way as crazy as Gibson, but just because he's said those sorts of things on tape about women.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
This point against Eve's abortion is a better one. If she truly believed Mark would never return, aborting his child was short sighted and even selfish. The issue is that most people don't do the "right" or "logical" things at all times. They often succumb to flaws or whatnot, especially in a crisis.

To a degree I don't think Eve really believed Mark would be gone forever. He'd gone to space before and survived no end of horrific injuries. She might have intellectually known Mark could die or never return, but part of her knew that was unlikely; she just never knew when he'd be back. This hasn't come up, of course, and Eve likely just succumbed to a lot of her baggage without Mark to support her. Again, no matter the circumstance, raising a kid alone is not easy. So she had Debbie? That might make her feel worse, that she needs Mark's mom to basically raise her own son for her.

Unmentioned is the fact that any child bred from Mark & Debbie will basically be a messiah figure in terms of power level worth Mr. Sinister chasing around. He/she would inherit Mark's Viltrumite powers as well as some degree of Eve's abilities. Every Viltrumite and knowledgeable villain in the series would chase that kid around, and it likely would get old very quickly. On the other hand, it would help propel Angstrum Levy, who is supposed to be Mark's arch nemesis but appears too infrequently to do so a lot.

It certainly is good one of the surviving "Evil Alternate Marks" that Levy recruited showed up on earth during the Viltrumite War. He would have had ten months to settle himself in and convince the world the "real" Mark was evil. About a dozen or so of them survived the Invincible War. It might be interesting if Thragg ever found about about that and sought their location from Levy as an easy way to bolster the Viltrumite Empire's ranks by a few.

Kirkman is likely going to try to pair Nolan up with Debbie again, and that's going to take a lot of decent writing to make Debbie not look weak. Nolan's changed, but his betrayal was a HECKUVA betrayal. The problem is the last guy Debbie dated was on panel so little he really wasn't a viable figure.

At any rate, I liked this last issue and I don't mind the soap opera plots because I expect that in this series and a lot of comics. Eve having an abortion is a better plot than "Levy stole my baby" or even worse, Mark coming back and nothing at home had changed much.


FYI, the 14th trade paperback of INVINCIBLE will be the first not named about a sitcom. It'll just be called "THE VILTRUMITE WAR". Wow, that was creative. The first 13 trades were all titled after a TV sitcom no matter the subject matter, even the Invincible War/Conquest trades ("Still Standing" and "Growing Pains").

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Old 04-25-2011, 01:59 AM   #30
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Default Re: Invincible - Part 1

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None of those excuses really hold water to me.

Also who even said Debbie would raise the child for her? Debbie is the child's grandmother so of course she can help out, not raise it for her.

Either way, I just feel that Eve is not mother material and she truly doesn't love Mark. If a part of her truly believed Mark would come back then she wouldn't have been alone with the child forever.


Listen I think there is a difference between Mel Gibson . . . and what Jade actually did to Kyle Rayner. Jade proverbially castrated the guy, it's no wonder he has so many emotional and confidence issues. And Kyle just sit there and took it.

And first thing she does when she comes back is shove her tongue down his throat after she dumped him in one of the most humiliating, embarrasing ways possible.

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Old 04-25-2011, 06:07 PM   #31
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Default Re: Invincible - Part 1

I don't buy the whole commentary thing that Kirkman is doing, it's like hey you guys don't like people being killed off and brought back in comics, guess what I am going to do it to point out how stupid it is.

Ummm...why don't you just say that you think it's stupid and, oh I don't know, never do it so that way your comic bucks the trend?

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Old 04-25-2011, 09:01 PM   #32
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Exclamation Re: Invincible - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVileOne View Post
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
None of those excuses really hold water to me.

Also who even said Debbie would raise the child for her? Debbie is the child's grandmother so of course she can help out, not raise it for her.

Either way, I just feel that Eve is not mother material and she truly doesn't love Mark. If a part of her truly believed Mark would come back then she wouldn't have been alone with the child forever.


Listen I think there is a difference between Mel Gibson . . . and what Jade actually did to Kyle Rayner. Jade proverbially castrated the guy, it's no wonder he has so many emotional and confidence issues. And Kyle just sit there and took it.

And first thing she does when she comes back is shove her tongue down his throat after she dumped him in one of the most humiliating, embarrasing ways possible.
I think we can all agree that Eve has her issues and is quite screwed up, like many people. For a while, Mark was afraid of turning her off with all the drama of his family and legacy, and in the end she's the one who manages to have larger baggage. They've both had some degree of screwed up lives; Eve's origin was far more messed up than Mark's; his career as a superhero was peachy until Nolan revealed things after a year's worth of issues.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
The point of the matter was for any one of a hundred reasons Eve was not ready to have a child and had an abortion. It is what happened and it is being dealt with. Eve didn't have an easy time of it; the incident has effected her esteem and led to her gaining weight (or keeping any of the weight she gained during the pregnancy; we don't yet know how soon she aborted it). She is only 20, like Mark, which is usually considered young to be a parent under the best of circumstances.

What Jade did to Kyle and what Eve "did" to Mark are not the same. To the best of our knowledge, Eve did not cheat on Mark. She hasn't broken up with him and if anything is unlikely to be the one to initiate a break up (unless Mark gets angry about the abortion and she gets defensive; we don't know what issue 80 will bring). Eve wasn't living in Mark's house and aside for chatting with his mom didn't "take" anything of his. Abortion being legal in America means a woman has the right to choose whether to have a baby, since she is the one who physically gives birth; no "man" can make that choice for her legally. We don't know how Mark feels about the abortion yet; all he did upon hearing about it was cry and hug Eve (and apologize for putting her in the situation). We'll learn how he feels about it next issue. It seemed implied that Eve hasn't told anyone about the abortion but Mark, but for all we know she could have told someone else. It will be interesting seeing how other characters feel about it. Nolan might not be thrilled.

It's easy to see the most "logical" course of action for someone to do, but humans don't usually do what is logical and often succumb to emotions, which are often mixed, confusing, and lead to unpredictable conclusions. It is easy to logically claim, "Well, if she loved him, she should gave borne his child regardless of how she felt about having a kid so young or her own ability to raise it, or make her own rotten parents into grandparents". Some people believe a life is a life and regardless of the circumstances, all babies should be born and raised. Other people believe it is better to not have a kid than to raise one in imperfect circumstances and screw it up, because you don't get a second chance.

In a way, this storyline partially reminds me of a story Christos Gage did with Tigra in AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE (and has carried into AVENGERS ACADEMY) that doesn't get much publicity. In A:TI, as initiated in MIGHTY AVENGERS, Tigra was "dating" Hank Pym. Unfortunately, "Hank Pym" turned out to be a Skrull Impostor, who was revealed and killed during SECRET INVASION. She later found out that she was impregnated with the Skrull's child. Atop this, Norman Osborn gained control of the Initiative and in no uncertain terms wanted to study Tigra's child because it was half Skrull; whether she wanted it removed before or after birth was "up to her" - it was after this that Tigra went on the run from his administration. She ultimately decided to raise the baby alone (with modest assistance from the mystical Cat People who empower her), although she recently made the real Pym, who she doesn't want to date "again", promise to care for her kid if she dies. The show stopper is that despite the father being a Skrull, because the newer Skrull shapeshifting technique allowed them to copy someone's very DNA, Tigra's son is genetically Pym's, even if he had nothing to do with the conception. That's all about 7 degrees of messed up. Yet overall I think Gage has handled it well and made Tigra a stronger character for it; before his run, she was mostly "furry fetish fuel".

Of course, Eve is not Tigra. They're different characters so I am not dismayed at different choices, right or wrong.
The interesting thing will be what it does in terms of character subplots. Soap Opera? Yes, but comics have been doing that since Stan Lee and Steve Ditko did ASM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BAH HUMBBUG! View Post
I don't buy the whole commentary thing that Kirkman is doing, it's like hey you guys don't like people being killed off and brought back in comics, guess what I am going to do it to point out how stupid it is.

Ummm...why don't you just say that you think it's stupid and, oh I don't know, never do it so that way your comic bucks the trend?
INVINCIBLE has always been a book where Kirkman both would satirize the sorts of things that happen in mainstream super hero comics and at the same time proudly embrace those elements. From a mentor turning out to be evil to costume changes, a clone saga, deaths, wars, and so on, INVINCIBLE has had it all. To a degree that maybe sounds a bit much like someone wanting to have both sides of an argument, but I don't see it as something new that has happened to the series.

Does Kirkman sometimes come off like a hypocrite when he gets on a soapbox? Absolutely. While he may be Capt. Creator Owned comics today, I'm sure all those years working for Marvel helped pay a damn lot of bills before he was stable enough to throw himself fully at Skybound. Again, he doesn't talk much about comic prices now that he sells GUARDING THE GLOBE and some other material for $3.50. On the other hand, he does admit when he screws up without throwing his artist under a bus on occasion, so I can at least respect that.

INVINCIBLE sometimes enters ruts, but I still enjoy it. SUPER DINOSAUR hasn't gotten me past the end of ASTOUNDING WOLF-MAN, though.

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Old 04-25-2011, 10:21 PM   #33
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Default Re: Invincible - Part 1

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To me, "having a child is serious business" is not a good enough argument. To me this goes beyond having issues. I think Eve just doesn't really love Mark.

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Old 04-25-2011, 10:38 PM   #34
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Default Re: Invincible - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Dread View Post
I think we can all agree that Eve has her issues and is quite screwed up, like many people. For a while, Mark was afraid of turning her off with all the drama of his family and legacy, and in the end she's the one who manages to have larger baggage. They've both had some degree of screwed up lives; Eve's origin was far more messed up than Mark's; his career as a superhero was peachy until Nolan revealed things after a year's worth of issues.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
The point of the matter was for any one of a hundred reasons Eve was not ready to have a child and had an abortion. It is what happened and it is being dealt with. Eve didn't have an easy time of it; the incident has effected her esteem and led to her gaining weight (or keeping any of the weight she gained during the pregnancy; we don't yet know how soon she aborted it). She is only 20, like Mark, which is usually considered young to be a parent under the best of circumstances.

What Jade did to Kyle and what Eve "did" to Mark are not the same. To the best of our knowledge, Eve did not cheat on Mark. She hasn't broken up with him and if anything is unlikely to be the one to initiate a break up (unless Mark gets angry about the abortion and she gets defensive; we don't know what issue 80 will bring). Eve wasn't living in Mark's house and aside for chatting with his mom didn't "take" anything of his. Abortion being legal in America means a woman has the right to choose whether to have a baby, since she is the one who physically gives birth; no "man" can make that choice for her legally. We don't know how Mark feels about the abortion yet; all he did upon hearing about it was cry and hug Eve (and apologize for putting her in the situation). We'll learn how he feels about it next issue. It seemed implied that Eve hasn't told anyone about the abortion but Mark, but for all we know she could have told someone else. It will be interesting seeing how other characters feel about it. Nolan might not be thrilled.

It's easy to see the most "logical" course of action for someone to do, but humans don't usually do what is logical and often succumb to emotions, which are often mixed, confusing, and lead to unpredictable conclusions. It is easy to logically claim, "Well, if she loved him, she should gave borne his child regardless of how she felt about having a kid so young or her own ability to raise it, or make her own rotten parents into grandparents". Some people believe a life is a life and regardless of the circumstances, all babies should be born and raised. Other people believe it is better to not have a kid than to raise one in imperfect circumstances and screw it up, because you don't get a second chance.

In a way, this storyline partially reminds me of a story Christos Gage did with Tigra in AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE (and has carried into AVENGERS ACADEMY) that doesn't get much publicity. In A:TI, as initiated in MIGHTY AVENGERS, Tigra was "dating" Hank Pym. Unfortunately, "Hank Pym" turned out to be a Skrull Impostor, who was revealed and killed during SECRET INVASION. She later found out that she was impregnated with the Skrull's child. Atop this, Norman Osborn gained control of the Initiative and in no uncertain terms wanted to study Tigra's child because it was half Skrull; whether she wanted it removed before or after birth was "up to her" - it was after this that Tigra went on the run from his administration. She ultimately decided to raise the baby alone (with modest assistance from the mystical Cat People who empower her), although she recently made the real Pym, who she doesn't want to date "again", promise to care for her kid if she dies. The show stopper is that despite the father being a Skrull, because the newer Skrull shapeshifting technique allowed them to copy someone's very DNA, Tigra's son is genetically Pym's, even if he had nothing to do with the conception. That's all about 7 degrees of messed up. Yet overall I think Gage has handled it well and made Tigra a stronger character for it; before his run, she was mostly "furry fetish fuel".

Of course, Eve is not Tigra. They're different characters so I am not dismayed at different choices, right or wrong.
The interesting thing will be what it does in terms of character subplots. Soap Opera? Yes, but comics have been doing that since Stan Lee and Steve Ditko did ASM.



INVINCIBLE has always been a book where Kirkman both would satirize the sorts of things that happen in mainstream super hero comics and at the same time proudly embrace those elements. From a mentor turning out to be evil to costume changes, a clone saga, deaths, wars, and so on, INVINCIBLE has had it all. To a degree that maybe sounds a bit much like someone wanting to have both sides of an argument, but I don't see it as something new that has happened to the series.

Does Kirkman sometimes come off like a hypocrite when he gets on a soapbox? Absolutely. While he may be Capt. Creator Owned comics today, I'm sure all those years working for Marvel helped pay a damn lot of bills before he was stable enough to throw himself fully at Skybound. Again, he doesn't talk much about comic prices now that he sells GUARDING THE GLOBE and some other material for $3.50. On the other hand, he does admit when he screws up without throwing his artist under a bus on occasion, so I can at least respect that.

INVINCIBLE sometimes enters ruts, but I still enjoy it. SUPER DINOSAUR hasn't gotten me past the end of ASTOUNDING WOLF-MAN, though.
And he's done it so well in the past, which is why I despise it so much when he does it on purpose just to do it. Regardless, imho, Invincible has lost a lot of it's luster, and this happened a while ago.

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Old 04-26-2011, 01:28 AM   #35
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Exclamation Re: Invincible - Part 1

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Originally Posted by TheVileOne View Post
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
To me, "having a child is serious business" is not a good enough argument. To me this goes beyond having issues. I think Eve just doesn't really love Mark.
I think Eve loves Mark more than she loves herself at this point, and that's the issue. Or one of them. Esteem issues were likely a cause of why she did what she did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BAH HUMBBUG! View Post
And he's done it so well in the past, which is why I despise it so much when he does it on purpose just to do it. Regardless, imho, Invincible has lost a lot of it's luster, and this happened a while ago.
Here's the thing, though. INVINCIBLE is one of the few runs of this length I have read and Kirkman's tics on it haven't irritated me as much as, say, Bendis' tics on ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN did by issue 79 or even how some of Brubaker's tics on Captain America material I am starting to notice more, in a bad way. I mean if I was to sit back and try to pick out some of the things I wasn't 100% in love with in regards to the past 20 or so issues I am sure I could find a nice list, but I still enjoy the book greatly overall, and am invested in it's characters and world. It has disappointed me far less than a great deal of Marvel comics.

I imagine trying to come up with a long term subplot now that the Viltrumite War is over can't be easy.

If I DO have one major concern about the future, it is that I fear that Kirkman may be tempting bringing this back too much to a status quo. Mark living at home, in his original costume, with Nolan and Debbie together in some capacity, and Mark on at least working terms with Cecil and all that. Sure, there's Oliver (although he hasn't been seen in two issues), and it isn't exactly the same, but part of me feels Kirkman is tempting a "return to status quo" to a degree when its an original comic that doesn't need one. I haven't been a fan of some of the supporting cast like William and Rick fading into the background ages ago (I think before issue #78, the last time either were on panel were some "worldwide reactions to stuff" panels during some of the war stuff). I thought Shrinking Ray's death was a bit too cavalier, but that's going way back.

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Old 06-09-2011, 01:00 AM   #36
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Default Re: Invincible - Part 1

Wow, so they decided to
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
blow up Las Vegas
. Didn't see that coming.

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Old 06-09-2011, 01:48 AM   #37
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Default Re: Invincible - Part 1

Yeah, didn't see that one coming at all.

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Old 06-09-2011, 10:36 AM   #38
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Default Re: Invincible - Part 1

Did an issue come out yesterday? o_O

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Old 06-09-2011, 12:31 PM   #39
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Default Re: Invincible - Part 1

79 and 80 are out.

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Old 06-09-2011, 03:34 PM   #40
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Default Re: Invincible - Part 1

When did 80 come out because somehow I don't think it was pulled at my shop for me.

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Old 06-09-2011, 06:00 PM   #41
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Default Re: Invincible - Part 1

I dunno...I read it last night.

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Old 06-17-2011, 07:02 PM   #42
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Default Re: Invincible - Part 1

I think that's a pretty good creative choice and I am looking forward to seeing some of the consequenses of this because I feel that Mark has just gotten way to cocky lately (and the confrontation with Gravy Tator probably didn't do anything to hurt that)

This will be good to show him that just because he's the strongest and fastest doesnt mean that he will always win. He needs to start using his head more.

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Old 06-17-2011, 08:34 PM   #43
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Default Re: Invincible - Part 1

Repost of my review, with spoilers:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dread
INVINCIBLE #80: Having skipped May, Robert Kirkman's long running creator owned superhero series reaches another high round number. While the schedule for the supplemental mini series GUARDING THE GLOBE has gone off the rails, this title continues to be on it's usual pace of shipping 8-10 issues a year (aside for 2009, where it actually shipped monthly).
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
With the Viltrimute War behind us and the title hero, these past few issues have been seeking to play catch-up with the lives of the supporting cast back on earth. This is actually a good and perhaps overdue thing. Mark Grayson's friend William, for instance, has had more panel time for these past two issues than he's gotten in almost two years. Ryan Ottley's pencils continue on their usual pace of excellence, and while Nikos Koutsis' colors are fine, it takes some getting used to. As the cover suggests, one of Invincible's newer enemies - Dinosaurus - marks a return here. Much as Kirkman is using this time to dust off Mark's earth-based cast, he also is addressing the problem of there being few enemies who seem able to challenge Mark anymore unless they are of his alien Viltrimute heritage - or are the dimension hopping Angstrom Levy, who appears infrequently. Between Dinosaurus and SUPER-DINOSAUR, Kirkman is coming close to waring out his welcome with the prehistoric reptiles in a similar manner that some writers over-use the appeal of gorillas, cyborgs, zombies, or ninja. Quite a lot is packed into these 22 pages, due to many of them having as many as 12 panels apiece. Thus, in 22 pages Kirkman is able to pack in quite a few conversations between characters as well as get in a major fight sequence without things feeling rushed. Suffice it to say Dinosaurus proves to be a worthy threat to Invincible and the world, and in a manner that is unexpected - his mind (or at least cunning). The TECH-JACKET back-up strip by Kirkman, Aubrey Sitterson, and artist E.J. Su also wraps up, after having two issues off. The cliffhanger revelation of the previous issue does come up, but it is a very delicate subject which is naturally something to deal with apart from super-action. Plus, Invincible actually TALKS a super-criminal out of a heist!


The only negative is a half page sequence where Kirkman has his comic-loving hero talk to a comic shop clerk, which ends with a bit which seems very much like Kirkman once again shaking his finger at the "big two" for recent editorial stunts. While it is probably deserved, and Kirkman does poke some fun at himself, it can come off as hypocritical coming from a writer who cashed paychecks from Marvel for a large chunk of his career and currently earns heftier pay with an AMC TV show. While some readers have felt this title is in a rut, I believe this title is a perfect marriage of the enjoyable tropes of superhero comics with the leeway of a creator owned comic, in which anything can truly happen. While some issues and stretches are better or worse than others, this remains a solid investment for any reader who even remotely enjoys superheroes who doesn't enjoy having to buy seven titles to enjoy a franchise.

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Old 06-18-2011, 11:41 AM   #44
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Default Re: Invincible - Part 1

Dread, I just have to say that I am a personal fan. I don't buy comics like I used to at all anymore. (just a few like Invinicble and Trades) But I still come in here ever week and look through the Bought/Thought for your posts. I really enjoy them and they keep me up to date in comics and keep me informed. Thanks Dread.

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Old 06-18-2011, 12:34 PM   #45
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Default Re: Invincible - Part 1

I'll probably just tune into this forum from here on out since I am no longer paying for this jump the shark book. I think Kirkman has gotten full of himself.

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Old 06-18-2011, 05:47 PM   #46
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Exclamation Re: Invincible - Part 1

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Dread, I just have to say that I am a personal fan. I don't buy comics like I used to at all anymore. (just a few like Invinicble and Trades) But I still come in here ever week and look through the Bought/Thought for your posts. I really enjoy them and they keep me up to date in comics and keep me informed. Thanks Dread.
No problemo. I am aware there are people who follow my reviews, so I do try to post them when I can. I just hope some of you hit that Examiner link in my sig now and then.

(The pay via hits is so low that I don't think anyone could claim I "sold out" if I told them what I make per month on 'em.)

Quote:
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I'll probably just tune into this forum from here on out since I am no longer paying for this jump the shark book. I think Kirkman has gotten full of himself.
While you and I probably disagree sharply about the direction of INVINCIBLE, I will agree that Kirkman has probably "gotten full of himself" the last few years. To his credit, he has some reason to following the sales and media success of THE WALKING DEAD, but smugness is still smugness. I noted in this very issue not caring for his in-story lecture of the big two. I'm not saying he's wrong, but he does come off a little hypocritical when he sells some of his own comics for over $2.99 and by the fact that he spent a large chunk of his career at Marvel, which helped up his profile, even on a decent franchise title like ULTIMATE X-MEN - which he wrote quite poorly, IMO. You can't tear into the big two when you use a tenure with them to boost your own profile. I can accept Peter Laird or Bryan Lee O'Malley doing so; less so with Kirkman. Didn't he write CAPTAIN AMERICA for a stretch? Back when he was best known as "the BATTLE POPE guy"?

I also wanted to comment on something in the letters' page where editor Sina Grace praised Kirkman for having the stones to do an abortion subplot, basically. While I can't think of too many other superhero stories who have done so, I do lament that Christos Gage doesn't get similar cred for his Tigra subplot at the end of AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE. As a recap, Tigra started dating Hank Pym in MIGHTY AVENGERS and thus in that secondary title. However, the Pym she was dating turned out to be a Skrull, with the real Pym being their captive since before the NEW AVENGERS debuted. Not only did she have to deal with the fact that she was, basically, seduced by an alien impostor spy, but was IMPREGNATED by him. That's as close to being date raped as one can get without being Mockingbird/Bobbie Morse. To top it off, Norman Osborn was in charge of the Initiative by then and in no uncertain terms wanted her to either abort the fetus so he could experiment on it, or allow him to collect it when she gave birth. Tigra chose to keep the child, feeling it was innocent of the crimes of it's "father" - she even named the child after her slain husband. Making things even MORE complicated are not only the fact that her son has inherited her "cat people" powers and growing quickly, but that genetically, he IS Hank Pym's son despite the fact that he had nothing to do with conceiving him. It's a complicated situation but doesn't "L&W:SVU" make hay with the idea of baring the child of a rape? And through it all, Gage has written Tigra as a strong heroine while still being vulnerable at times, at least emotionally. Yet I don't see him get the accolades he deserves for this subplot or taking a heroine most dismissed as "furry fetish fuel" and making her a strong, captivating character.

There is a part of me that isn't jumping for joy about Nolan and Debbie getting back together; while he's more optimistic about it than she is, it seems awkward to try to do so. And I suppose while I don't hate the Eve subplot as much as some do, there is a part of me "surprised", to say the least, that Eve's devolved and become quite emotionally fragile. I still do like the book overall, even if I am aware that with a series this long, there is a bit of making up stuff as you go along or changing plans on the fly.

I will scream if Kirkman makes another dinosaur character in another book he does, though.

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Old 06-18-2011, 06:17 PM   #47
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Default Re: Invincible - Part 1

I don't think Kirkman deserves to be called BOLD and "having stones" for writing such a terrible story. Just because you write a story about abortion doesn't automatically make it good. Hate pretention like that.

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Old 06-20-2011, 01:25 AM   #48
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Exclamation Re: Invincible - Part 1

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I don't think Kirkman deserves to be called BOLD and "having stones" for writing such a terrible story. Just because you write a story about abortion doesn't automatically make it good. Hate pretention like that.
While I don't think the story is as "terrible" as you believe, part of me does wonder if a factor into why Kirkman went into that direction was to avoid expectations. While most writers like to keep a reader on their toes, sometimes specifically doing something with the sole intent to mislead the reader can lead to a story that may not entirely work.

Dan Slott is a writer I adore, but there were bits in his MIGHTY AVENGERS run where I think he had Hank Pym do and say things for the sole purpose of defying reader expectation - from picking a fight with Mr. Fantastic for childish reasons to offering Loki a spot on the Avengers. They felt awkward and tacked on.

Imagine if I wrote a Superman story in which the reader fully expects Superman to grumble about being unable to legally bring Lex Luthor to jail because of a lack of clear evidence. The reader might expect a tense confrontation between Superman and Luthor in which Superman vows to have his eye on him, while Lex acts smug and innocent. Imagine if I sought to defy those expectations by having Superman grab Luthor and throw him into orbit. GOTCHA! But is that really the best way to write Superman? Probably not.

I can't say I didn't think an abortion was not something I saw as a story option, but I wasn't expecting Eve to go down that route. I'm not the biggest fan of her having become so...emotionally needy. These are Kirkman's characters so he can write them however he wants, really.

Irony? Given how even DC are trying to make their heroes younger and less mature, a superhero franchise that actually didn't run screaming from having a kid might have come off as innovative.

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Old 06-20-2011, 03:56 PM   #49
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Default Re: Invincible - Part 1

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No problemo. I am aware there are people who follow my reviews, so I do try to post them when I can. I just hope some of you hit that Examiner link in my sig now and then.

(The pay via hits is so low that I don't think anyone could claim I "sold out" if I told them what I make per month on 'em.)
Sweet, I had no idea......I'll be following

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Old 06-20-2011, 04:09 PM   #50
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Default Re: Invincible - Part 1

Dread, I can tell deep down in your bones, in your heart of hearts you don't like the book anymore. You just are reluctant to drop it due to your deep emotional connection to the book going back over the years. I understand, I had the same thing. But that made it all the more painful realizing how bad the book had become.

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