Discussion: Illegal Immigration, Immigration Reform, and Other Citizenship Issues II

[Holiday]

Originally Posted by Kelly

I know quite a few families that are here illegally, I've known 100s of them over the 22 years that I've taught....and none of them own a home here. They may rent, they may pay a portion of the rent, mortgage, etc....but they do not own the home.

With that said, spending your money here doesn't mean we should allow you to stay here illegally, without even "trying" to move towards a work visa, citizenship, etc....

I can't say for sure who owned a home or didn't in my old community that had a large immigrant population, but I think it is a fair assumption to say at least some did. One example was a tiny old home in my neighborhood that, from the outside, looked like it needed to be torn down. A family moved into that house and after a few years it looks totally different, a very nice looking home. I have to think they bought it cheap and own it.

But anyway, my point was that while yeah, people are sending money back to Mexico or Guatemala or wherever, they spend the majority here.

I agree with immigrants needing to work towards citizenship though, and also agree that process needs to be made easier. A lot of people I knew from my old town were a better example of the American dream than most Americans themselves.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Native American to Immigration Protest: "You're all f***ing Illegal".

http://www.mediaite.com/online/nativ...fking-illegal/

Great video, not just for the lulz, but also, truth hurts, doesn't it?

(CAUTION: Video contains strong and uncensored language)

[Schlosser85]

I know this is a minority opinion, but I'm not impressed.

If you wanna get ridiculously anal about this, Native Americans immigrated to North America from Asia thousands of years ago when the land masses were connected.

Sure, his ancestors have been here for a very long time, but so have the ancestors of some of the white Americans he's calling illegal, and throwing around "you", "you, "you", like they personally invaded this country, murdered his people, and stole their land.

Calling someone whose family has been here for generations illegal is just as silly as the Israelis and Palestinians expecting each other to go live somewhere else.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Holiday

I can't say for sure who owned a home or didn't in my old community that had a large immigrant population, but I think it is a fair assumption to say at least some did. One example was a tiny old home in my neighborhood that, from the outside, looked like it needed to be torn down. A family moved into that house and after a few years it looks totally different, a very nice looking home. I have to think they bought it cheap and own it.

But anyway, my point was that while yeah, people are sending money back to Mexico or Guatemala or wherever, they spend the majority here.

I agree with immigrants needing to work towards citizenship though, and also agree that process needs to be made easier. A lot of people I knew from my old town were a better example of the American dream than most Americans themselves.

I actually have no real problem with them sending money back to family anywhere that they are helping out....BUT, they need to have work visa in order to do that.

[The Question]

Originally Posted by Schlosser85

I know this is a minority opinion, but I'm not impressed.

If you wanna get ridiculously anal about this, Native Americans immigrated to North America from Asia thousands of years ago when the land masses were connected.

Sure, his ancestors have been here for a very long time, but so have the ancestors of some of the white Americans he's calling illegal, and throwing around "you", "you, "you", like they personally invaded this country, murdered his people, and stole their land.

Calling someone whose family has been here for generations illegal is just as silly as the Israelis and Palestinians expecting each other to go live somewhere else.

I think the point is that it's hypocritical for a group of people who are all descended from immigrants to be opposed to immigration.

Also, I think a big difference is that there was no one here when the Native people came to this continent. There were a lot of people here when white settlers came here.

[The Question]

I want to elaborate on a point I made here a while ago: I see a lot of people here talking about how amnesty can't supercede the people doing things by the book and that people need to have work visas and all that.

My question is, what's so great about the book we have right now? Why not rewrite the book entirely? Why not just make it easier for anyone who wants to become a citizen to become one?

[Kelly]

Because you don't have to rewrite the book to make it better, or easier. In a country as large as this, you can't just "rewrite" when you don't like them, nor should you.

Hey, I have an idea, how about we throw the whole Constitution and rewrite that next week....

You have agencies already in place with Immigration, you have each state with particular needs, there are way too many outside factors to just rewrite it. In order to do a good job, that would and should take quite awhile and go through rewrites etc. We have a good base already in our Constitution....simply tweek those areas where there are problems. Hell, if we would just take the lawyers out of the equation, that right there would take a huge bite out of the time and cost factor. But there really isn't a need to rewrite the whole thing.

I think the group working on it is doing a good job thus far, if the President can see past the R's in the group and not listen to either end of the political spectrum, but look at what is solid about the bill, we may get some good legislation out of this.

[Darthphere]

Originally Posted by Kelly

Because you don't have to rewrite the book to make it better, or easier. In a country as large as this, you can't just "rewrite" when you don't like them, nor should you.

Hey, I have an idea, how about we throw the whole Constitution and rewrite that next week....

You have agencies already in place with Immigration, you have each state with particular needs, there are way too many outside factors to just rewrite it. In order to do a good job, that would and should take quite awhile and go through rewrites etc. We have a good base already in our Constitution....simply tweek those areas where there are problems. Hell, if we would just take the lawyers out of the equation, that right there would take a huge bite out of the time and cost factor. But there really isn't a need to rewrite the whole thing.

I think the group working on it is doing a good job thus far, if the President can see past the R's in the group and not listen to either end of the political spectrum, but look at what is solid about the bill, we may get some good legislation out of this.

It could use an update honestly.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Darthphere

It could use an update honestly.

Oh, totally agree......not a total re-write...but yes some updating would be nice.

[Schlosser85]

Originally Posted by The Question

I think the point is that it's hypocritical for a group of people who are all descended from immigrants to be opposed to immigration.

Also, I think a big difference is that there was no one here when the Native people came to this continent. There were a lot of people here when white settlers came here.

I am the great-grandson of German immigrants. I am not against immigration. I am against ILLEGAL immigration.

I don't see a conflict or hypocrisy there.

[The Question]

Originally Posted by Schlosser85

I am the great-grandson of German immigrants. I am not against immigration. I am against ILLEGAL immigration.

I don't see a conflict or hypocrisy there.

I think a strong argument can be made that European immigration to the Americas was illegal from the perspective of the native peoples.

Also, I have a question: Why are you opposed to illegal immigration, exactly? It seems like a silly question but I think it's important for discussing the problem.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by Schlosser85

I am the great-grandson of German immigrants. I am not against immigration. I am against ILLEGAL immigration.

I don't see a conflict or hypocrisy there.

We didn't follow the Native Americans immigration laws (if they had any), or really make any attempt to compromise and live some harmonious existence. No, we instead flexed our technological superiority, sent them blankets with smallpox and stabbed them in the back every chance we had.

Look, I'm not saying there's much to be done now, at least not until the time machine is invented, but what they did was very much illegal immigration.

Were we able to re-attempt that today the United Nations wouldn't stand for it. They'd call it an illegal occupation.

[The Question]

A lot of people here are saying we need to completely secure the border before we do anything. But, the border is nearly 2,000 miles long, it doesn't seem possible to secure the border.

[snyderrocks]

the reason that i am against illegal immigration is that when my ancestors immigrated to america they did it the right way why should other people expect special treatment ? because if i went to where they are from i could not do that .

[Thundercrack85]

You know, I think everyone is opposed to illegal immigration. As in, having people living in a country undocumented. The issue is what to do with them. Some people say they should be sent back to wherever they came from (regardless of the circumstances), others, take a more nuanced approach. And then some just don't really care (in politics those are called "moderates").

What troubles me, is that when you look at the people most vocal about illegal immigration, you can't help but... suspect that they're upset about more than the actual laws being broken. Quite frankly a lot of them are just racists (some more subtly so than others). And while they may actually be upset about the legal problem, this really is just a race issue.

[The Question]

In addition to that, I think there is something of a logical fallacy going around about immigrating the "right" way, as in, using the existing legal channels. Just because that's the legal way to immigrate to the United States doesn't mean it's the right way, it just means that it's the way that's currently legal. Laws can be wrong or poorly thought out. It sounds like a crap semantic distinction, but that kind of wording insulates people from the notion that we might need to change our laws, and I think we do need to change our immigration laws. Right now it's way too hard to become a legal citizen, which is why we have so many illegals.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by The Question

In addition to that, I think there is something of a logical fallacy going around about immigrating the "right" way, as in, using the existing legal channels. Just because that's the legal way to immigrate to the United States doesn't mean it's the right way, it just means that it's the way that's currently legal. Laws can be wrong or poorly thought out. It sounds like a crap semantic distinction, but that kind of wording insulates people from the notion that we might need to change our laws, and I think we do need to change our immigration laws. Right now it's way too hard to become a legal citizen, which is why we have so many illegals.

I think we need to change them as well....doesn't negate the fact that they are the LAW NOW....I don't like having to follow certain laws, but I do...for the simple fact that they are the law. Just because we don't like a particular law, doesn't make it wrong either.

We need to make the path to citizenship much quicker, and get the lawyers out of it so that it becomes a path that doesn't bankrupt people that probably don't have a lot of money to begin with....we do not however need to just OPEN OUR BORDERS. You have to regulate it in some way...but definitely we need to make it easier, I think we are losing out on a lot of innovation and ingenuity from immigrants that we have seen from the past.

We don't have the choice of liking a law so I'll follow that one, and I don't agree with that one so I'll not follow it. You will reap the consequences.... we have a set way of making, enforcing and interpreting laws... you go through that process.

[Thundercrack85]

You do have to admit, that there's a certain irony to all this. Not only did most Americans immigrate to the country in a legally / morally dubious fashion (essentially taking Indian land, and exterminating / displacing the natives), they also seceded from another country to found it (obviously against laws of said country).

In a hundred years, when all of North America is one country, we're all going to look back and laugh.

[Darthphere]

Originally Posted by snyderrocks

the reason that i am against illegal immigration is that when my ancestors immigrated to america they did it the right way why should other people expect special treatment ? because if i went to where they are from i could not do that .

Who are your ancestors and what was the right way?

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

You do have to admit, that there's a certain irony to all this. Not only did most Americans immigrate to the country in a legally / morally dubious fashion (essentially taking Indian land, and exterminating / displacing the natives), they also seceded from another country to found it (obviously against laws of said country).

In a hundred years, when all of North America is one country, we're all going to look back and laugh.

Oh, there is DEFINITELY an irony to all of this...but I cannot pay for those that went before me before this land belonged to no one, and everyone...

I think that the immigrants to this country should be treated with respect, dignity, etc....I think they should be welcomed, and I think they should be a part of this country. The way to do that is to become a citizen...OR.....simply come on a type of visa, and keep track of those visas. I DO NOT want to be a Japan, at all....but it is what it is. We have laws, we cannot DISOBEY a law simply because 300 years ago, this land belonged to everyone and to no one. If that was the case, then every government in the world should simply dissolve and give the land back to the indigenous people of that region. And good luck, if you aren't one of those FEW indigenous peoples, you are snap out of luck....get the hell out of the country. lol


We can certainly change the laws, but as of right now, I do believe we have to follow them.

[snyderrocks]

Originally Posted by Darthphere

Who are your ancestors and what was the right way?

who are my ancestors ? that is none of your business and the right way is the legal way not the illegal way .

[Darthphere]

Originally Posted by snyderrocks

who are my ancestors ? that is none of your business and the right way is the legal way not the illegal way .

That's cool. I just needed confirmation that you're full of ****. Thanks.

[Schlosser85]

I don't think being descended from immigrants obligates you to support illegal immigration.

We're not talking about our ancestors hundreds of years ago, we're talking about the issues we're facing today.

[Darthphere]

Originally Posted by Schlosser85

I don't think being descended from immigrants obligates you to support illegal immigration.

We're not talking about our ancestors hundreds of years ago, we're talking about the issues we're facing today.

And no one is saying that. I just simply wanted to know who his ancestors are. He brought them up, he should be able to answer a simple follow up question. That anecdote always pops up from people against illegal immigration "My ancestors came here the right way!" Ok, can you follow up on that? I'm not asking for your DOB and social security number.

[SuperFerret]

The pilgrims didn't quite follow the laws of the natives when they landed at Plymouth Rock.