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View Poll Results: Is it time to legalize pot?
Yes 177 74.37%
No 48 20.17%
I don't know 13 5.46%
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Old 10-21-2012, 10:44 PM   #351
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

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The only issue with this is, often, not all the time, but often, the marijuana dealers are also cocaine dealers, ecstasy dealers, carry guns, etc.
Don't you think the legalization of weed would then render those dealers who deal other things to ONLY sell those other drugs? Those who simply sell bud will stop selling and just buy it legally.

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Old 10-22-2012, 08:27 AM   #352
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Don't you think the legalization of weed would then render those dealers who deal other things to ONLY sell those other drugs? Those who simply sell bud will stop selling and just buy it legally.
That is an argument that I hear often and I would say that argument is an EXTREMELY hopeful/optimistic one. Will this happen for SOME of these people? Probably so.

But at the same time, if this is part of someone's livelihood (selling marijuana), then there is a REAL good chance that they will continue to get it illegally (from Mexico, self grown, etc) and undercut the supertaxed legal sales. While their customer base may drop some, as there will be those who dont want to take a chance dealing with those types of sales, there will be PLENTY of people who will not want to pay the legal supertaxed price.

Because of the dealings I have had with people (per my job), I never underestimate people's greed, desire to "beat the system," or lack of desire to change their ways/habits.

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Old 10-22-2012, 09:10 AM   #353
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

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Originally Posted by mrvlknight21 View Post
That is an argument that I hear often and I would say that argument is an EXTREMELY hopeful/optimistic one. Will this happen for SOME of these people? Probably so.

But at the same time, if this is part of someone's livelihood (selling marijuana), then there is a REAL good chance that they will continue to get it illegally (from Mexico, self grown, etc) and undercut the supertaxed legal sales. While their customer base may drop some, as those who dont want to take a chance dealing with those types of sales, there will be PLENTY of people who will not want to pay the legal supertaxed price.

Because of the dealings I have had with people (per my job), I never underestimate people's greed, desire to "beat the system," or lack of desire to change their ways/habits.
I'm not sure about that. It depends on how highly taxed something is. Bootlegging has basically disappeared.

Most dealers I know have the opportunity to sell other drugs but don't by choice. Perhaps that would change and perhaps not. I'm sure some would leave the game and others "evolve".

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Old 10-22-2012, 11:17 AM   #354
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Um, drug dealers will not be able to compete with corporations who sell the best weed for the lowest prices.

and who's going to risk buying/selling an illegal product when it's available at a store that offers a limitless selection?

Ever wonder why there's a tiny black market for cannabis in Amsterdam? The only black market there exists when they try and make legal access to cannabis tougher.

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Old 10-22-2012, 01:05 PM   #355
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

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Um, drug dealers will not be able to compete with corporations who sell the best weed for the lowest prices.

and who's going to risk buying/selling an illegal product when it's available at a store that offers a limitless selection?

Ever wonder why there's a tiny black market for cannabis in Amsterdam? The only black market there exists when they try and make legal access to cannabis tougher.
You assume that corporations, who will be subject to plenty of tax penalties, have to pay employees (salary, insurance, etc), have a brick and mortar building (rent, electric bill, water bill, decor, etc etc etc) can beat the prices of some guy growing in his own backyard/field or some guy getting a ton of it illegally from Mexico?

And I already explained why SOME people would still buy from said dealer-its cheaper being the number 1 reason.

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Old 10-22-2012, 01:32 PM   #356
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

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Originally Posted by mrvlknight21 View Post
That is an argument that I hear often and I would say that argument is an EXTREMELY hopeful/optimistic one. Will this happen for SOME of these people? Probably so.

But at the same time, if this is part of someone's livelihood (selling marijuana), then there is a REAL good chance that they will continue to get it illegally (from Mexico, self grown, etc) and undercut the supertaxed legal sales. While their customer base may drop some, as there will be those who dont want to take a chance dealing with those types of sales, there will be PLENTY of people who will not want to pay the legal supertaxed price.

Because of the dealings I have had with people (per my job), I never underestimate people's greed, desire to "beat the system," or lack of desire to change their ways/habits.
Seen a lot of bootlegged alcohol lately? Yeah, it still exists, but it's barely a blip on the radar.

Marijuana is EXTREMELY cheap to grow. Even if it's taxed like tobacco or alcohol, it will be nowhere near as expensive as the black market product. You could sell tobacco at the price you sell cigarettes - let's say $10 for a pack of 20 joints plus a 100% sin tax for a total of $20/pack - and still make a massive profit. Nobody's going to to pay $60 for an eighth from some dude when that is available at their local gas station.

Getting the product here and past authorities is what makes the drug expensive today. It will still be expensive if you're doing it in violation of a new federal law, i.e. one that legalizes but heavily regulates marijuana. Yeah, some people might still import it illegally, but it won't be economically viable.

You talk a lot of "supertaxes" (the worst superhero ever?), but the government isn't going to tax it to the point that the black market becomes attractive. You talk about people not wanting to change their habits, which is essentially saying they're lazy, which is true. But lazy people are gonna go to the store and not spend time getting a hold of some scumbag on his burner cell phone.

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Old 10-22-2012, 01:39 PM   #357
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

Let's just legalize it and stop wasting time on this issue.

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Old 10-22-2012, 01:51 PM   #358
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

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Originally Posted by mrvlknight21 View Post
You assume that corporations, who will be subject to plenty of tax penalties, have to pay employees (salary, insurance, etc), have a brick and mortar building (rent, electric bill, water bill, decor, etc etc etc) can beat the prices of some guy growing in his own backyard/field or some guy getting a ton of it illegally from Mexico?

And I already explained why SOME people would still buy from said dealer-its cheaper being the number 1 reason.
Why is there basically no black market for cannabis in Amsterdam??? I mean, if it's so easy to grow in the backyard and sell illegally?

There's no reason for a weed smoker to risk arrest buying weed from a shady dealer when they can get a far better selection at a safe and legal shop. A dealer would have a hard time selling something that everyone can easily get around the corner legally. Everyone the dealer approached about buying whatever weed he has in their pocket will think it's a joke or a trick and point to the cannabis store 10 yards away.

Can you give me an example where the black market undercut big business successfully on a wide scale?

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Old 10-22-2012, 01:54 PM   #359
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Seen a lot of bootlegged alcohol lately? Yeah, it still exists, but it's barely a blip on the radar.

Marijuana is EXTREMELY cheap to grow. Even if it's taxed like tobacco or alcohol, it will be nowhere near as expensive as the black market product. You could sell tobacco at the price you sell cigarettes - let's say $10 for a pack of 20 joints plus a 100% sin tax for a total of $20/pack - and still make a massive profit. Nobody's going to to pay $60 for an eighth from some dude when that is available at their local gas station.

Getting the product here and past authorities is what makes the drug expensive today. It will still be expensive if you're doing it in violation of a new federal law, i.e. one that legalizes but heavily regulates marijuana. Yeah, some people might still import it illegally, but it won't be economically viable.

You talk a lot of "supertaxes" (the worst superhero ever?), but the government isn't going to tax it to the point that the black market becomes attractive. You talk about people not wanting to change their habits, which is essentially saying they're lazy, which is true. But lazy people are gonna go to the store and not spend time getting a hold of some scumbag on his burner cell phone.
Yeah I don't think MVLKNIGHT realizes how marked up the price is for illegal cannabis. It's ridiculously more expensive because of prohibition.

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Old 10-22-2012, 02:22 PM   #360
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

OK...so...just to play devils advocate (Because I frankly don't care either way) so let's say it was totally legalized.

Are we sure people will be responsible enough not to get high while driving a car to work? A bus? While on the job when no one is looking? If it's readily available...are we confident enough in people that they will be responsible about it? Look at how many drunk driving accidents there are? Now, imagine how many there would be if every car had a fridge where you could keep beers right at your finger tips. How would that change society? Would it?

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Old 10-22-2012, 02:38 PM   #361
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

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OK...so...just to play devils advocate (Because I frankly don't care either way) so let's say it was totally legalized.

Are we sure people will be responsible enough not to get high while driving a car to work? A bus? While on the job when no one is looking? If it's readily available...are we confident enough in people that they will be responsible about it? Look at how many drunk driving accidents there are? Now, imagine how many there would be if every car had a fridge where you could keep beers right at your finger tips. How would that change society? Would it?
Same dangers for alcohol or prescription drugs the only difference is those two severely make you a danger on the road.

You can put a cooler in a car, the technology you fear already exists.

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Old 10-22-2012, 03:02 PM   #362
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Ive been arrested twice for posession and both times the officers have said they are pro legalization. What a ****ed up world we live in where the enforcers don't even believe in what they are enforcing.

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Old 10-22-2012, 03:24 PM   #363
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Ive been arrested twice for posession and both times the officers have said they are pro legalization. What a ****ed up world we live in where the enforcers don't even believe in what they are enforcing.
Same thing happened to me when I got arrested man. The only thing they were worried about was the "location" factor: say you're in a public venue like a concert or at a stadium for a baseball/football game, and there are hundreds of kids around, what is appropriate? I told them OF COURSE that wouldn't be appropriate to be smoking a joint around kids. There do need to be clear lines where public smoking is just not ok.

But the plain fact that we have LAW ENFORCEMENT officers who are pro-legalization/antiprohibition speaks VOLUMES.

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Old 10-22-2012, 04:40 PM   #364
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

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Originally Posted by Destructus86 View Post
OK...so...just to play devils advocate (Because I frankly don't care either way) so let's say it was totally legalized.

Are we sure people will be responsible enough not to get high while driving a car to work? A bus? While on the job when no one is looking? If it's readily available...are we confident enough in people that they will be responsible about it? Look at how many drunk driving accidents there are? Now, imagine how many there would be if every car had a fridge where you could keep beers right at your finger tips. How would that change society? Would it?
We covered this already.

It's far more dangerous to drive while texting (increases accident chances by 20) but we don't outlaw texting in general.

We outlaw driving while texting.

You don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. If people shouldn't drive stoned you go after and punish people who drive stoned anyway, not people who harmlessly smoke cannabis under safe circumstances.

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Old 10-22-2012, 09:47 PM   #365
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

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Originally Posted by Destructus86 View Post
OK...so...just to play devils advocate (Because I frankly don't care either way) so let's say it was totally legalized.

Are we sure people will be responsible enough not to get high while driving a car to work? A bus? While on the job when no one is looking? If it's readily available...are we confident enough in people that they will be responsible about it? Look at how many drunk driving accidents there are? Now, imagine how many there would be if every car had a fridge where you could keep beers right at your finger tips. How would that change society? Would it?
People already have access to alcohol, pills and yes, weed, so I don't see how legalization is going to make people start getting high at work. Those who would do that are already doing it.

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We covered this already.

It's far more dangerous to drive while texting (increases accident chances by 20) but we don't outlaw texting in general.

We outlaw driving while texting.

You don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. If people shouldn't drive stoned you go after and punish people who drive stoned anyway, not people who harmlessly smoke cannabis under safe circumstances.
This. DUI with marijuana would be more difficult to prove than alcohol, but not impossible. We punish stoned driving anyway, so the DUI angle is basically a straw man.

The idea that legalizing marijuana will lead to everyone and their mother being stoned all the time ignores one big fact: those who want marijuana now can get it. The people who would be stoned all day already are. Legalization would just ensure a safer product, save police resources, alleviate prison crowding, and regulate the market.

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Old 10-23-2012, 12:05 PM   #366
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

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Seen a lot of bootlegged alcohol lately? Yeah, it still exists, but it's barely a blip on the radar.

Marijuana is EXTREMELY cheap to grow. Even if it's taxed like tobacco or alcohol, it will be nowhere near as expensive as the black market product. You could sell tobacco at the price you sell cigarettes - let's say $10 for a pack of 20 joints plus a 100% sin tax for a total of $20/pack - and still make a massive profit. Nobody's going to to pay $60 for an eighth from some dude when that is available at their local gas station.

Getting the product here and past authorities is what makes the drug expensive today. It will still be expensive if you're doing it in violation of a new federal law, i.e. one that legalizes but heavily regulates marijuana. Yeah, some people might still import it illegally, but it won't be economically viable.

You talk a lot of "supertaxes" (the worst superhero ever?), but the government isn't going to tax it to the point that the black market becomes attractive. You talk about people not wanting to change their habits, which is essentially saying they're lazy, which is true. But lazy people are gonna go to the store and not spend time getting a hold of some scumbag on his burner cell phone.
Quote:
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Why is there basically no black market for cannabis in Amsterdam??? I mean, if it's so easy to grow in the backyard and sell illegally?

There's no reason for a weed smoker to risk arrest buying weed from a shady dealer when they can get a far better selection at a safe and legal shop. A dealer would have a hard time selling something that everyone can easily get around the corner legally. Everyone the dealer approached about buying whatever weed he has in their pocket will think it's a joke or a trick and point to the cannabis store 10 yards away.

Can you give me an example where the black market undercut big business successfully on a wide scale?
You guys might be right, but I think you are under pricing how much corporations (or whoever) will charge for their legal weed, with all the taxes, various costs to make it a retail item and so on.

Just my opinion. The various effects of legalization can be predicted many ways at this point.

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Ive been arrested twice for posession and both times the officers have said they are pro legalization. What a ****ed up world we live in where the enforcers don't even believe in what they are enforcing.
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But the plain fact that we have LAW ENFORCEMENT officers who are pro-legalization/antiprohibition speaks VOLUMES.
This is true for SOME law enforcement officers. I do not share that opinion.

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Old 10-23-2012, 12:30 PM   #367
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

You feel people should be thrown behind bars for smoking some cannabis?

Why?

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Old 10-23-2012, 12:32 PM   #368
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You feel people should be thrown behind bars for smoking some cannabis?

Why?
When you say "thrown behind bars" are you referring to the initial arrest (local jail for 24-48 hours typically) or sentencing?

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Old 10-23-2012, 12:34 PM   #369
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Both

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Old 10-23-2012, 12:44 PM   #370
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Both
Yes I do agree with the initial arrest. It is an illegal substance and I agree with it being illegal, therefore someone in possession of it should be arrested. I know thats a bit of a bare bones answer, but I do feel that it needs to be outlawed.

As far as sentencing, Ive been working in the criminal justice system a long time and have never seen anyone get prison time for what amounts to personal use level of marijuana. I am not saying that it has never happened, but again, I dont personally recall it ever happening. Typically its probation and there are now drug courts here that are less punitive and send people to rehab, if they decide to go that route.

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Old 10-23-2012, 10:37 PM   #371
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You guys might be right, but I think you are under pricing how much corporations (or whoever) will charge for their legal weed, with all the taxes, various costs to make it a retail item and so on.

Just my opinion. The various effects of legalization can be predicted many ways at this point.
True, there will be different types of costs under a legalization system I think you're drastically underestimating two things: (1) just how cheap it is to grow marijuana; and (2) how much of the current black market price is from the risk involved (i.e. an "illegality premium").

Companies likely will not be allowed to advertise (I'm pretty sure all 3 ballot initiatives this election forbid advertising), so there's one big cost gone. The big tax, the "sin tax", will be paid by the consumer, not the companies. There won't be much need for flashy packaging (and such packaging may also be forbidden) or huge storefronts (you can fit a lot of product into a relatively small space), so there's two more big costs down.

I also believe you're overestimating the costs of running a business. Yes, there will be licensing fees and the like, but when you can charge, say $30 per 1/8 ounce for a product that probably costs about $2 per 1/8 ounce to produce (and that might be high, no pun intended), you've got some very nice markups to work with. And you don't need many employees; many dispensaries are run by a handful of people who also grow the product.

As far as I know, the price of marijuana in dispensaries today is comparable to street prices, if not a bit lower. And the quality of the product is much higher. That's a big point not to forget. Even if legalized weed shops could only offer, say a $10 discount compared to street prices (a VERY conservative figure), users will take that every day of the week. The combination of (1) legality, (2) discount, (3) convenience, (4) variety, and (5) consistency of quality will win out over the shady weed dealer every single time.

Bootlegged weed will become like bootlegged alcohol: consumed by a very small minority of people and not a real issue.

I mean, think about how cool it would be for the average weed user, who has been demonized and harassed by law enforcement, to feel like a legitimate consumer of a product? They can even help their communities by paying taxes on their favorite intoxicant!

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Old 10-23-2012, 10:40 PM   #372
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As far as sentencing, Ive been working in the criminal justice system a long time and have never seen anyone get prison time for what amounts to personal use level of marijuana. I am not saying that it has never happened, but again, I dont personally recall it ever happening. Typically its probation and there are now drug courts here that are less punitive and send people to rehab, if they decide to go that route.
This is a good point. People who get prison sentences for personal amounts of pot are typically either (1) on probation and their positive drug test/possession charge results in revocation or (2) a repeat offender.

However, in many states, people can be imprisoned for first time possession offenses. Many states authorize one year of imprisonment for such offenses, but most prosecutors and judges realize how insane that is.

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Old 10-23-2012, 10:49 PM   #373
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Yes I do agree with the initial arrest. It is an illegal substance and I agree with it being illegal, therefore someone in possession of it should be arrested. I know thats a bit of a bare bones answer, but I do feel that it needs to be outlawed.

As far as sentencing, Ive been working in the criminal justice system a long time and have never seen anyone get prison time for what amounts to personal use level of marijuana. I am not saying that it has never happened, but again, I dont personally recall it ever happening. Typically its probation and there are now drug courts here that are less punitive and send people to rehab, if they decide to go that route.
But I assume you're perfectly fine with alcohol being legally available?

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Old 10-23-2012, 11:30 PM   #374
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Edit: Wrong thread.

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Old 10-24-2012, 12:56 AM   #375
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But I assume you're perfectly fine with alcohol being legally available?
I think there should be a limit. Fine, legalize pot but then take away one of the other two.

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