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View Poll Results: Is it time to legalize pot?
Yes 177 74.37%
No 48 20.17%
I don't know 13 5.46%
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:32 PM   #726
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Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 View Post
Specifically what is bad about weed effecting people in different ways?
It should be pointed out weed that generally gives you a "bad trip" is laced with something. If Marijuana was regulated by the States you sure as hell you won't get weed laced with something

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Old 04-11-2013, 01:48 PM   #727
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

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Originally Posted by wiegeabo View Post
I see that as punishing people for something they haven't done, or may never experience.

You can't know you'll react badly to something until you actually take the something, unless there's some kind of test for this I'm not aware of.

And even if it does badly effect a few, that's still punishing potentially millions of users (what is the estimated number) who don't have that problem.
Whew, I would argue that keeping marijuana possession, etc illegal does not punish anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 View Post
Specifically what is bad about weed effecting people in different ways?

It won't kill them like the millions who die smoking cigarettes ANNUALLY. They won't rape, fight, or speed recklessly like drunks do on alcohol every minute of every day.

So what's the problem?

Why are the problems associated with alcohol and cigarettes perfectly acceptable but cannabis strictly prohibited when it isn't anywhere nearly as destructive or dangerous to the public?

Far more lives are ruined by targeting and arresting cannabis users/growers than the actual use of the drug.

Since 1965, 21 million people have been arrested for cannabis. What did that accomplish other than separating countless children from their parents and destroying countless careers. I bet most of those who arrested and sentenced these harmless people enjoy beer and/or wine on various occasions.
I would say that (in bold) is a very BIG assumption at the least or a completely incorrect statement at the worst...and that is also one of my points with the whole "different people could get different reactions" statement. Drugs affect people differently and we do not know that they will not go out and kill or do whatever. Yes, that could get into the pre-cog type stuff from Minority Report, but I would argue that a society that does not have any chemical dependancy, people walking around stoned or high, etc etc etc, would be safer than one where people are legally allowed to possess and use marijuana and other drugs.

I 100% realize that I am in the vast minority on this and in my discussions on this forum about this subject I am often ridiculed as not knowing anything about drugs, being too conservative, forcing my values/opinions on others, and so on. But it is my belief that drugs are bad (insert South Park teacher voice, if necessary on that line). And while I realize and understand that it will NEEEEEEEEEVER happen, I firmly believe that a society void of all drugs would be safer and more productive (except maybe in song writing).

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Old 04-11-2013, 02:34 PM   #728
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Originally Posted by mrvlknight21 View Post
Whew, I would argue that keeping marijuana possession, etc illegal does not punish anyone.
Restricting people's autonomy, their right to choose, can be a form of punishment. You need a good justification for doing this.

I liken it to the homosexuality debate. Whether or not homosexuality is a choice has nothing to do with homosexuality being moral. If it could be shown that homosexuality was a choice, it would be a form of punishment to people that wish to partake in homosexuality to make it illegal.


Quote:
I would say that (in bold) is a very BIG assumption at the least or a completely incorrect statement at the worst...and that is also one of my points with the whole "different people could get different reactions" statement. Drugs affect people differently and we do not know that they will not go out and kill or do whatever.
How would marijuana cause someone to go out and kill?

Quote:
Yes, that could get into the pre-cog type stuff from Minority Report, but I would argue that a society that does not have any chemical dependancy, people walking around stoned or high, etc etc etc, would be safer than one where people are legally allowed to possess and use marijuana and other drugs.
You mean like caffeine, sleeping tablets, anti-depressants?

Quote:
I 100% realize that I am in the vast minority on this and in my discussions on this forum about this subject I am often ridiculed as not knowing anything about drugs, being too conservative, forcing my values/opinions on others, and so on. But it is my belief that drugs are bad (insert South Park teacher voice, if necessary on that line). And while I realize and understand that it will NEEEEEEEEEVER happen, I firmly believe that a society void of all drugs would be safer and more productive (except maybe in song writing).
Drugs don't bring any benefits to society? Medicinal or otherwise?

Don't you think your logic could be applied to a wide array of things?

The world would be safer without cars. Let's ban cars. The world would be safer without fatty foods. Let's ban fatty foods.

Objectively, marijuana is safer than both.

It really shouldn't be up to you. You think drugs are bad? Fine, don't take them. You need to have more respect for the autonomy of other people.


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Old 04-11-2013, 02:47 PM   #729
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You mean like caffeine, sleeping tablets, anti-depressants?
I would argue Sugar is a drug as well

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Old 04-11-2013, 02:47 PM   #730
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

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Originally Posted by mrvlknight21 View Post
Whew, I would argue that keeping marijuana possession, etc illegal does not punish anyone.



I would say that (in bold) is a very BIG assumption at the least or a completely incorrect statement at the worst...and that is also one of my points with the whole "different people could get different reactions" statement. Drugs affect people differently and we do not know that they will not go out and kill or do whatever. Yes, that could get into the pre-cog type stuff from Minority Report, but I would argue that a society that does not have any chemical dependancy, people walking around stoned or high, etc etc etc, would be safer than one where people are legally allowed to possess and use marijuana and other drugs.

I 100% realize that I am in the vast minority on this and in my discussions on this forum about this subject I am often ridiculed as not knowing anything about drugs, being too conservative, forcing my values/opinions on others, and so on. But it is my belief that drugs are bad (insert South Park teacher voice, if necessary on that line). And while I realize and understand that it will NEEEEEEEEEVER happen, I firmly believe that a society void of all drugs would be safer and more productive (except maybe in song writing).
It's not an assumption. You realize that most Americans have tried cannabis?

That's over 150 million people. If it was deadly not only would there be dozens of studies stating such those studies would be referenced endlessly by America's prohibitionists. But ultimately medical, economic and social studies support the legalization side of the argument nearly unanimously.

You're second assumption is that:

1) prohibition succeeds at cutting cannabis use by a wide margin when marijuana use has only skyrocketed since it was made illegal.

2) legalization will result in much wider usage. Actually, places that have unofficially legalized cannabis (Portugal and the Netherlands) have seen steady usage or a DROP in usage.

Typically there's a small surge in use then a steady decline once the taboo is gone.

Prohibitionists tend to ignore things like this for some reason.

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Old 04-11-2013, 02:51 PM   #731
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

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Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 View Post
2) legalization will result in much wider usage. Actually, places that have unofficially legalized cannabis (Portugal and the Netherlands) have seen steady usage or a DROP in usage.
From what i read usage remains relatively the same(if not an insignificant drop) but where they see noticeable decreases is people using other drugs. Once you take marijuana away from the drug dealers many people then don't associate with people pushing harder stuff. If somebody fears Marijuana being a gateway to worse thing, they probably better off fighting for legalizing it.

By the way here is a documentary that sort of explains the ridiculous means Marijuana was made illegal in the US

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


Last edited by SV Fan; 04-11-2013 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:57 PM   #732
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

Also I'd like to know if those who oppose the legalization of cannabis support the prohibition of alcohol and cigarettes since they kill 75,000 and 5 million people annually.

Cannabis hasn't killed anyone. In fact it helps alleviate hundreds of medical conditions and has thousands of industrial applications.

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Old 04-11-2013, 03:04 PM   #733
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

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Originally Posted by SV Fan View Post
From what i read usage remains relatively the same(if not an insignificant drop) but where they see noticeable decreases is people using other drugs. Once you take marijuana away from the drug dealers many people then don't associate with people pushing harder stuff. If somebody fears Marijuana being a gateway to worse thing, they probably better off fighting for legalizing it.

By the way here is a documentary that sort of explains the ridiculous means Marijuana was made illegal in the US

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:
You are correct. The big drop after quasi-legalization was in hard drug usage. Who doesn't want that?

Also there have been a drop in overall crime in places that allow medical use and decriminalization of cannabis.

I'll post a link later but there are a mountain of growing reasons to legalize. Cannabis prohibition never made sense and only a minority support it today, many of them seniors.

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Old 04-11-2013, 03:32 PM   #734
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

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Originally Posted by The End View Post
Restricting people's autonomy, their right to choose, can be a form of punishment. You need a good justification for doing this.

I liken it to the homosexuality debate. Whether or not homosexuality is a choice has nothing to do with homosexuality being moral. If it could be shown that homosexuality was a choice, it would be a form of punishment to people that wish to partake in homosexuality to make it illegal.




How would marijuana cause someone to go out and kill?



You mean like caffeine, sleeping tablets, anti-depressants?



Drugs don't bring any benefits to society? Medicinal or otherwise?

Don't you think your logic could be applied to a wide array of things?

The world would be safer without cars. Let's ban cars. The world would be safer without fatty foods. Let's ban fatty foods.

Objectively, marijuana is safer than both.

It really shouldn't be up to you. You think drugs are bad? Fine, don't take them. You need to have more respect for the autonomy of other people.

Let me try to respond to some of the things that you may have misunderstood.

I never said that marijuana would make anyone go out and kill. I said that "we do not know that they will not go out and kill or do whatever." "Do whatever" was the real focus of the line and this was directly in response to MessiahDecoy's post which said "It won't kill them like the millions who die smoking cigarettes ANNUALLY. They won't rape, fight, or speed recklessly like drunks do on alcohol every minute of every day."

I simply exchanged one crime and "do whatever" for the crimes that he listed.

I hope you can see what I mean there.

While you are making a connection between banning cars and banning marijuana, I would certainly argue that cars are EXTREMELY valuable in society for regular daily transportation and obviously extreme situations like ambulances, fire trucks and so on.
I know that some will argue that marijuana is valuable as a medicine and other things and has a legitimate place in society. I simply disagree with that, but I certainly understand that there are people who believe that and some who use it in a way that is useful to them. Again, this is my belief, my opinion.


To that topic, I repeatedly said in my post that "its my belief" "I would say" and so on to try to emphasize that this is MY opinion. I dont think my opinion is disrespectful towards the autonomy of others. I am NOT forcing my opinion on anyone, making any laws to disrupt anyone's life, or anything remotely close. I am merely taking part in this dicsussion by stating my very unpopular opinion. I never said anything negative in my post about people who choose to use drugs or anything like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 View Post
It's not an assumption. You realize that most Americans have tried cannabis?

That's over 150 million people. If it was deadly not only would there be dozens of studies stating such those studies would be referenced endlessly by America's prohibitionists. But ultimately medical, economic and social studies support the legalization side of the argument nearly unanimously.

You're second assumption is that:

1) prohibition succeeds at cutting cannabis use by a wide margin when marijuana use has only skyrocketed since it was made illegal.

2) legalization will result in much wider usage. Actually, places that have unofficially legalized cannabis (Portugal and the Netherlands) have seen steady usage or a DROP in usage.

Typically there's a small surge in use then a steady decline once the taboo is gone.

Prohibitionists tend to ignore things like this for some reason.
I never said that a person who smokes marijuana has a good chance of dropping dead (immediately or otherwise). If that has ever happened, it was likely a person with serious health issues or with multiple drugs in their system already or some other anomaly.
Again, I was more speaking to the fact that you seemed to indicate that people who drink go out and do all these bad things and those who use marijuana do not. I would argue that either group probably participates in those activities...maybe one more than the other (percentage wise), maybe not.
In fact, your post said they WONT go out and do those things, as if marijuana users are immune to crime or poor decision making.

Rather than prohibition, I would like to see a society WITHOUT drugs. Yes, my own utopia that I am sure I will get bashed for again, but I base that on my points that I already listed (safer, more productive society).
Until then, I will just have to agree with prohibition. I realize fully that it isnt the best answer...maybe not even a very good one. But I do prefer it to legalization.

I would like to see some of the studies that you mentioned. Not doubting you, but would like to see the numbers and such. Information is power and all.

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Old 04-11-2013, 03:35 PM   #735
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Originally Posted by mrvlknight21 View Post
Rather than prohibition, I would like to see a society WITHOUT drugs
Which drugs though. i am guessing you have a line in the sand that allows some drugs(caffeine for instance or ones used for medical purposes or aspirin or etc.)

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Old 04-11-2013, 03:58 PM   #736
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

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Originally Posted by mrvlknight21 View Post
Let me try to respond to some of the things that you may have misunderstood.

I never said that marijuana would make anyone go out and kill. I said that "we do not know that they will not go out and kill or do whatever." "Do whatever" was the real focus of the line and this was directly in response to MessiahDecoy's post which said "It won't kill them like the millions who die smoking cigarettes ANNUALLY. They won't rape, fight, or speed recklessly like drunks do on alcohol every minute of every day."

I simply exchanged one crime and "do whatever" for the crimes that he listed.

I hope you can see wouthat I mean there.

While you are making a connection between banning cars and banning marijuana, I would certainly argue that cars are EXTREMELY valuable in society for regular daily transportation and obviously extreme situations like ambulances, fire trucks and so on.
I know that some will argue that marijuana is valuable as a medicine and other things and has a legitimate place in society. I simply disagree with that, but I certainly understand that there are people who believe that and some who use it in a way that is useful to them. Again, this is my belief, my opinion.


To that topic, I repeatedly said in my post that "its my belief" "I would say" and so on to try to emphasize that this is MY opinion. I dont think my opinion is disrespectful towards the autonomy of others. I am NOT forcing my opinion on anyone, making any laws to disrupt anyone's life, or anything remotely close. I am merely taking part in this dicsussion by stating my very unpopular opinion. I never said anything negative in my post about people who choose to use drugs or anything like that.



I never said that a person who smokes marijuana has a good chance of dropping dead (immediately or otherwise). If that has ever happened, it was likely a person with serious health issues or with multiple drugs in their system already or some other anomaly.
Again, I was more speaking to the fact that you seemed to indicate that people who drink go out and do all these bad things and those who use marijuana do not. I would argue that either group probably participates in those activities...maybe one more than the other (percentage wise), maybe not.
In fact, your post said they WONT go out and do those things, as if marijuana users are immune to crime or poor decision making.

Rather than prohibition, I would like to see a society WITHOUT drugs. Yes, my own utopia that I am sure I will get bashed for again, but I base that on my points that I already listed (safer, more productive society).
Until then, I will just have to agree with prohibition. I realize fully that it isnt the best answer...maybe not even a very good one. But I do prefer it to legalization.

I would like to see some of the studies that you mentioned. Not doubting you, but would like to see the numbers and such. Information is power and all.
Anyone with any experience around frequent cannabis users know, unlike alcohol, it doesn't make a person violent or destructive in any way.

Quite the opposite in fact.

People just assume because cannabis was made illegal it had to be for noble, public safety reasons. Do some research. Cannabis was made illegal because corporations didn't want to compete with hemp and some in law enforcement felt it was a corrupting whites via cultural intergration..

Cannabis gives people the munchies and the giggles. It's no where near the public hazard cigarettes and alcohol have always been.

and I'll gladly post informative links when I get home.

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Old 04-11-2013, 04:00 PM   #737
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

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Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 View Post
Anyone with any experience around frequent cannabis users know, unlike alcohol, it doesn't make a person violent or destructive in any way.

Quite the opposite in fact.

People just assume because cannabis was made illegal it had to be for noble, public safety reasons. Do some research. Cannabis was made illegal because corporations didn't want to compete with hemp and some in law enforcement felt it was a corrupting whites via cultural intergration..

Cannabis gives people the munchies and the giggles. It's no where near the public hazard cigarettes and alcohol have always been.

and I'll gladly post informative links when I get home.
I have seen PLENTY of people high on marijuana commit crimes.

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Old 04-11-2013, 04:08 PM   #738
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

and I don't know if a society without drugs would be more productive.

Bill Gates and Steve Jobs did mind expanding drugs as did an undisclosed amount of inventors and game changers.

Plus prohibition never really stopped or even slow down the supply of drugs.

It's just a waste of money and resources.

Again Portugal experienced a significant drop in hard drug use when they used government resources to focus on rehab instead of endless incarceration and drug bust. Prohobition just doesn't work. Time for common sense, reason and logic to rule the day.

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Old 04-11-2013, 04:39 PM   #739
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I have seen PLENTY of people high on marijuana commit crimes.
That doesn't mean cannabis was the catalyst.

correlation =/= causation

Criminals have used caffiene on many occasions, doesn't mean motivates crime.

A stoned person wants to sit on the couch, watch the cartoon or nature channel, and eat nachos. Not beat their wife or charge a cop like drunks have been known to do on many occasions. And there are some in the law enforcement community who openly acknowledge this difference.

Check out L.E.A.P. (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition).

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Old 04-11-2013, 04:40 PM   #740
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

A big factor in drug use is the "Thrill of getting away with it."

That's why so many kids and teens try cigarettes or drinks. Because it's the grown up thing to do, which makes it exciting.

Thing is, it's also true for adults.

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Old 04-11-2013, 04:57 PM   #741
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I have seen PLENTY of people high on marijuana commit crimes.
Technically if they smoked a joint and are high, they did a crime off the bat. lol

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Old 04-11-2013, 05:04 PM   #742
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvlknight21 View Post
Let me try to respond to some of the things that you may have misunderstood.

I never said that marijuana would make anyone go out and kill. I said that "we do not know that they will not go out and kill or do whatever." "Do whatever" was the real focus of the line and this was directly in response to MessiahDecoy's post which said "It won't kill them like the millions who die smoking cigarettes ANNUALLY. They won't rape, fight, or speed recklessly like drunks do on alcohol every minute of every day."

I simply exchanged one crime and "do whatever" for the crimes that he listed.

I hope you can see what I mean there.

While you are making a connection between banning cars and banning marijuana, I would certainly argue that cars are EXTREMELY valuable in society for regular daily transportation and obviously extreme situations like ambulances, fire trucks and so on.
I know that some will argue that marijuana is valuable as a medicine and other things and has a legitimate place in society. I simply disagree with that, but I certainly understand that there are people who believe that and some who use it in a way that is useful to them. Again, this is my belief, my opinion.


To that topic, I repeatedly said in my post that "its my belief" "I would say" and so on to try to emphasize that this is MY opinion. I dont think my opinion is disrespectful towards the autonomy of others. I am NOT forcing my opinion on anyone, making any laws to disrupt anyone's life, or anything remotely close. I am merely taking part in this dicsussion by stating my very unpopular opinion. I never said anything negative in my post about people who choose to use drugs or anything like that.



I never said that a person who smokes marijuana has a good chance of dropping dead (immediately or otherwise). If that has ever happened, it was likely a person with serious health issues or with multiple drugs in their system already or some other anomaly.
Again, I was more speaking to the fact that you seemed to indicate that people who drink go out and do all these bad things and those who use marijuana do not. I would argue that either group probably participates in those activities...maybe one more than the other (percentage wise), maybe not.
In fact, your post said they WONT go out and do those things, as if marijuana users are immune to crime or poor decision making.

Rather than prohibition, I would like to see a society WITHOUT drugs. Yes, my own utopia that I am sure I will get bashed for again, but I base that on my points that I already listed (safer, more productive society).
Until then, I will just have to agree with prohibition. I realize fully that it isnt the best answer...maybe not even a very good one. But I do prefer it to legalization.

I would like to see some of the studies that you mentioned. Not doubting you, but would like to see the numbers and such. Information is power and all.
Dude that's not gonna happen with prohibition laws. Whenever there is a prohibition about something, a criminal cartel is born to push it in the market in illegal ways in adulterated forms and many dangers hidden behind the transaction.
And why just see a society without drugs? Why not a world without guns also, wars, diseases, poverty etc?


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Old 04-11-2013, 05:08 PM   #743
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I have seen PLENTY of people high on marijuana commit crimes.
How did you saw them exactly? Were you with them before the crime to see if they got high on marijuana? Did you got a valid report after the crime that proves they were high?

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Old 04-11-2013, 05:46 PM   #744
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Also I'd like to know if those who oppose the legalization of cannabis support the prohibition of alcohol and cigarettes since they kill 75,000 and 5 million people annually.

Cannabis hasn't killed anyone. In fact it helps alleviate hundreds of medical conditions and has thousands of industrial applications.

Well, if Tobacco and/or Booze becomes illegal...Don't use those drugs anymore, but I have very little desire to live in world like that. I don't want the Feds, the States, or Big and Small Businesses to have any power telling me what I can or can't put into my body. However, I guess after thinking and talking, that pipe dream isn't happening, and I rather see Businesses and the States have that say than the Feds, even with a chance of Businesses and/or States becoming a ''Nanny State''.

Ex: The Feds could say tomorrow Weed is now decimalize, but will lets States decide if it should be legal in their state, and let businesses decide if they want to hire or not hire pot smokers.

and then years and years later, it's caffeine, booze, fatty foods, etc.

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Old 04-11-2013, 05:50 PM   #745
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I have seen PLENTY of people high on marijuana commit crimes.
Sure you have.

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Old 04-11-2013, 05:52 PM   #746
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Sure you have.

he's seen them do bad things at Taco Bell, esp in the bathrooms.

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Old 04-11-2013, 05:54 PM   #747
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

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Whew, I would argue that keeping marijuana possession, etc illegal does not punish anyone.



I would say that (in bold) is a very BIG assumption at the least or a completely incorrect statement at the worst...and that is also one of my points with the whole "different people could get different reactions" statement. Drugs affect people differently and we do not know that they will not go out and kill or do whatever. Yes, that could get into the pre-cog type stuff from Minority Report, but I would argue that a society that does not have any chemical dependancy, people walking around stoned or high, etc etc etc, would be safer than one where people are legally allowed to possess and use marijuana and other drugs.

I 100% realize that I am in the vast minority on this and in my discussions on this forum about this subject I am often ridiculed as not knowing anything about drugs, being too conservative, forcing my values/opinions on others, and so on. But it is my belief that drugs are bad (insert South Park teacher voice, if necessary on that line). And while I realize and understand that it will NEEEEEEEEEVER happen, I firmly believe that a society void of all drugs would be safer and more productive (except maybe in song writing).

this right here says enough. Not telling you to smoke it, but I highly suggest doing some research on it before jumping to conclusions.

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Old 04-11-2013, 05:54 PM   #748
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People commit crimes while wearing shoes all the time too. Should we outlaw footwear?

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Old 04-11-2013, 08:55 PM   #749
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

Oh wow....

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Old 04-11-2013, 08:58 PM   #750
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Default Re: Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Figs View Post
I know I'm driving fine because I'm in control and my judgement isn't off. If I were to get drunk...yeah, I wouldn't be driving so fine. When you're high off of marijuana it's nothing like being drunk where you lose control. If someone says they can't drive when stoned, I'm guessing they're so stoned out of their mind they're lightheaded.
This is cracking me up.....you. are. stoned.

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