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Old 02-16-2011, 11:39 AM   #26
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

I've just never understood the thinking by some Republicans who claim to believe in 'small, limited government'...yet they favor two of the largest government intrusions into personal life - telling a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body and telling gays that they cannot get married to the ones they love. It's incredibly hypocritical.

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Old 02-16-2011, 11:52 AM   #27
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And I can't understand how some people can think that the government has no right to express interest in the protection of fetuses, but does have a right in mandating behavior or deciding what sort of light bulbs we can buy.

I'm pro-choice on everything, but both the left and the right are irrational and hypocritical in the role they believe the government should play in our lives.

The one thing that makes abortion a sticky subject is that an unwanted pregnancy, almost always, requires a previous act of personal irresponsibility (and I say this as a guy with experience in the area). I can understand the position of both sides, but the rhetoric used to frame both sides is, again, obnoxious and hypocritical.

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Old 02-16-2011, 12:50 PM   #28
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marx View Post
I've just never understood the thinking by some Republicans who claim to believe in 'small, limited government'...yet they favor two of the largest government intrusions into personal life - telling a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body and telling gays that they cannot get married to the ones they love. It's incredibly hypocritical.
Yep it is completely hypocritical

The government has no right to tell gay couples they cannot marry or to try and tell women what we can do with our bodies

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Old 02-16-2011, 01:55 PM   #29
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Nor do they have the right to force us to pay into Social Security, or pay into Medicare, or buy Health Insurance, or decide what lightbulbs we buy, or to subsidize certain parts of the economy (hybrid cars, first-time home purchases) at the expense of others (every dollar spent by government must be taken from private enterprise).

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Old 02-16-2011, 09:54 PM   #30
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Maybe if you actually read the link instead of jumping to conclusions you would see that THAT headline ISN'T from HuffPost. It's from Mother Jones.
My bad, I mixed up your two posts linking the two hack websites. You're free to post whichever link you like, but I think more objective and neutral news sources would make the posts and "outrage" more credible.

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Agreed Marx

It is absolutely disgusting

All women have the right to have an abortion for whatever reason and no one has the right to try and stop us

Our bodies are our own and no one has the right to tell us what to do with them

This proposed law is disgusting and inhuman
When will the pro-choice movement ever care about the of the embryo or fetus or premature baby residing in the womb of the mother?

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Originally Posted by Marx
I've just never understood the thinking by some Republicans who claim to believe in 'small, limited government'...yet they favor two of the largest government intrusions into personal life - telling a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body and telling gays that they cannot get married to the ones they love. It's incredibly hypocritical.
I think most Republicans believe those type of issues should be decided at state or local level. What bothers the Republicans is having the federal government mandate that ever state, community, town, and city must facilitate every new socially-engineered institution or practice. Being for limited government doesn't mean you believe everything should be legal, only that certain branches and hierarchy of government should be given certain limited powers to make those decision. I hope you don't believe that being for limited government means that person should believe cocaine should be legal everywhere.

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Old 02-16-2011, 09:57 PM   #31
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

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Originally Posted by SentinelMind View Post
When will the pro-choice movement ever care about the of the embryo or fetus or premature baby residing in the womb of the mother?
Being pro-choice does not mean that I am pro-abortion.


Quote:
I think most Republicans believe those type of issues should be decided at state or local level. What bothers the Republicans is having the federal government mandate that ever state, community, town, and city must facilitate every new socially-engineered institution or practice. Being for limited government doesn't mean you believe everything should be legal, only that certain branches and hierarchy of government should be given certain limited powers to make those decision. I hope you don't believe that being for limited government means that person should believe cocaine should be legal everywhere.
I am speaking directly of the two largest intrusions into personal life. Abortion and gay marriage/equality.

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Old 02-16-2011, 10:16 PM   #32
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I am speaking directly of the two largest intrusions into personal life. Abortion and gay marriage/equality.
I don't believe those are the two largest intrusions in personal life. I believe a lot more intrusion in personal life happen in public school system, where the state gets access to children and tries to indoctrinate them or manage their health/well-being/thought processes of students in order to advance a socially-engineered public agenda. I believe the health insurance law mandate over what type of insurance I must have or how I should be fined for whether I prefer high deductible insurance or not is far more intrusive than whether the state grants a certificate to allow two guys get married.

My point still stands, I think certain decisions should be decided at state level than at federal level. The pro-choice movement wants Roe v Wade to stand, a Supreme Court mandate that abortion must be legal everywhere. They gay marriage movement also desires a Supreme Court decision making gay marriage legal everywhere. I think that's a big difference what Republicans want, how to police their own back yard.

Although this isn't the gay marriage thread, I'll state that marriage is a contract determined by the state and I think those matters should be determined in a legislature. Whether we like it or not, these issues have broad impact on society, how we raise our children (if they make it out the womb first), how it impacts public health / well-being and I think issues of those magnitude should be determined by state legislature if the respective Constitution is silent on those issues. If we want to make a constitutional right out of those issues, then you change the Constitution using the democratic amendment process.

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Old 02-16-2011, 10:29 PM   #33
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Being pro-choice does not mean that I am pro-abortion.
If you advocate allowing every woman the unconditional final word on getting an abortion, it means you tolerate abortion at some level. It's essentially the same argument Hucakabee brings up using slavery analogy. Many people who supported state's right to practice slavery even though they claimed they viewed it as an abhorrent practice.

Now, it is true that there are some practices that one may not support that they may allow to be legal. For instance, I don't drink alcohol recreationally and I personally think more people should abstain from drinking. That's just my personal belief. That doesn't mean that I would crusade to bring back Prohibition. I think adultery is wrong but I don't think the state should get involved in policing marriages. You can say that, although I don't support alcoholism and adultery, I tolerate allowing other people to legally practice within the country as I don't view it as warranting state intervention (although I would probably live somewhere that had some strict community codes against it).

For me though, the line is drawn at life or death issues.
and I tend to be less "compromising." That embryo, fetus in the womb is alive. The abortion kills the embryo. That's it. There is no second chances as in deciding not to drink, smoke, or cheat on wife. That embryo, baby is dead. I think in a society that doesn't protect life, that puts everyone's life in jeopardy. You then breed a society that doesn't respect life, I think that's dangerous.

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Old 02-16-2011, 10:38 PM   #34
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

You can spin my pro-choice view as being 'pro-abortion' all you want, but it's just not true.

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Old 02-16-2011, 10:39 PM   #35
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

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Originally Posted by SentinelMind View Post
I don't believe those are the two largest intrusions in personal life. I believe a lot more intrusion in personal life happen in public school system, where the state gets access to children and tries to indoctrinate them or manage their health/well-being/thought processes of students in order to advance a socially-engineered public agenda. I believe the health insurance law mandate over what type of insurance I must have or how I should be fined for whether I prefer high deductible insurance or not is far more intrusive than whether the state grants a certificate to allow two guys get married.

My point still stands, I think certain decisions should be decided at state level than at federal level. The pro-choice movement wants Roe v Wade to stand, a Supreme Court mandate that abortion must be legal everywhere. They gay marriage movement also desires a Supreme Court decision making gay marriage legal everywhere. I think that's a big difference what Republicans want, how to police their own back yard.

Although this isn't the gay marriage thread, I'll state that marriage is a contract determined by the state and I think those matters should be determined in a legislature. Whether we like it or not, these issues have broad impact on society, how we raise our children (if they make it out the womb first), how it impacts public health / well-being and I think issues of those magnitude should be determined by state legislature if the respective Constitution is silent on those issues. If we want to make a constitutional right out of those issues, then you change the Constitution using the democratic amendment process.
You mean like Texas, purposely downplaying the roles played and ideas heald by certain historical figures, such as Thomas Jefferson in order cast conservative views in a better light? Or manipulating perceptions of things by changing the wording, like replacing all references to slave trade with "triangle trade?" Yeah, states can play at that game too.

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Old 02-17-2011, 12:08 AM   #36
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When will the pro-choice movement ever care about the of the embryo or fetus or premature baby residing in the womb of the mother?
Pro-Lifers don't want to grant a fetus with the same rights as a living person, they want to grant fetuses more rights than a living person. No one has the right to the life of another without their consent.

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Old 02-17-2011, 02:49 AM   #37
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

Your rights do not extend past those of another person. If you define the unborn as people (which people in the pro-life movement do), then the idea that it's the woman's choice between saving or killing it is not a right, since it is not compatible with the unborn's right to exist. Whether or not you believe that you have to be born in order to qualify as being a human being is another argument, but do not misrepresent your opposition's argument by ignoring one of its cornerstones.

The reason that abortion is an ongoing legal issue is because it is currently a legal impass, but the courts chose to err in favor of women's rights instead of the rights of the unborn. It all comes down to which you believe: do you believe it's a woman's right to have absolute control over her reproductivity, or do you believe everyone has the right to exist, even if they are not wanted by their mother? These two ideas are mutually exclusive, and that's why the debate will never stop.

When in doubt, I err on the side of life, and thus I do not support abortion or the death penalty.

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Old 02-17-2011, 03:40 AM   #38
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

I am pro choice and pro abortion. A fetus is mot a living thing and has no rights until it is born in my opinion. I consider a woman's right to choose a basic human right. Our bodies are our own and it is our choice and ours alone what we put into or take out of our bodies. I do not care about the fetus.

I am very glad abortion was made legal at a federal level. Gay rights and abortion are not issues that should be decided at a state level

All women and lgnt people deserve equal rights and freedom and that includes the freedom to choose and the right to marry

No one anywhere ever has the right to tell a woman she cannot abort a fetus or tell a gay cpuple they xannot marry. No one has that right

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Old 02-17-2011, 03:47 AM   #39
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Quote:
Although this isn't the gay marriage thread, I'll state that marriage is a contract determined by the state and I think those matters should be determined in a legislature. Whether we like it or not, these issues have broad impact on society, how we raise our children (if they make it out the womb first), how it impacts public health / well-being and I think issues of those magnitude should be determined by state legislature if the respective Constitution is silent on those issues. If we want to make a constitutional right out of those issues, then you change the Constitution using the democratic amendment process.
Gay marriage has no negative effect on society public health children or anything elde. Lgbt couples can raise children just as well as heterosexual couples and many lgbt couples already do . Gay marriage is already legal in many placed with no negative results at all

Gay marriage and abortion should not be decided at a state level. Both should be legal everywhere

Freedom and equality are all that matter and all I care about. We are entitled to the right to choose what to do with our bodies and the right to marry

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Old 02-17-2011, 03:48 AM   #40
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No one has a right to exist. You have a right to live - the difference is the difference between a right to healthcare or food or shelter and a right to seek healthcare, food and shelter.

The issue for the mother isn't a matter of kill or save, it's to provide or not to provide. Since no man has the right to another life, the fetus does not have a right to their mother's life.

Consider it this way as well by going outside the womb. You have a woman and an toddler isolated with enough food for one of them. Who deserves the food? The woman or the child? The answer is the woman. Why? The woman can exist for herself and the toddler can't. If the woman sacrifices herself for the infant, both die.

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Old 02-17-2011, 03:51 AM   #41
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Old 02-17-2011, 04:29 AM   #42
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I am pro choice and pro abortion. A fetus is mot a living thing and has no rights until it is born in my opinion. I consider a woman's right to choose a basic human right. Our bodies are our own and it is our choice and ours alone what we put into or take out of our bodies. I do not care about the fetus.
If you are pro-choice then at least have the decency to not pretend you are neutral. After all, I can play that game too. I am both pro-life and pro-choice, because I support a woman's choice of whether or not to give their babies up for adoption. Unless your point was that you would rather the argument positions be called by the less flattering terms "pro-abortion" and "anti-choice," you are insulting to your opposition's intelligence when you falsely claim the neutral position in an argument where middle-ground is scarce.

Perhaps this is an example that will hit close enough to home for you: how would you like it if someone said to you "I'm pro-gay marriage since I support gays getting married, as long as they are not marrying each other"? I don't imagine you'd be nearly as proud of that person as you were of yourself when you wrote "I am pro-life and pro-choice, because fetuses are not alive."


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Old 02-17-2011, 07:15 AM   #43
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EDIT: Never mind . . . this wasn't as good an good argument as I thought.

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Old 02-17-2011, 07:38 AM   #44
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I never claimed to be neutral

I am very very pro choice and pro gay rights

I never posted that i am pro choice and pro life. I am not pro life i do not think that fetuses are alive

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Old 02-17-2011, 07:50 AM   #45
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

I don't know why my other post disappeared. If a mod deleted it, then please explain why it was inappropriate. So, I'll ask it again.

SCENARIO:

In the future, the "gay gene" is identified. As a result, the number of abortions goes up as women start to abort fetuses solely because they test positive for the gay gene. Is this morally right or morally wrong?

And once again, as someone who is pro-life, I can easily say that it is morally wrong.

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Old 02-17-2011, 08:03 AM   #46
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

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No one has a right to exist. You have a right to live - the difference is the difference between a right to healthcare or food or shelter and a right to seek healthcare, food and shelter.

The issue for the mother isn't a matter of kill or save, it's to provide or not to provide. Since no man has the right to another life, the fetus does not have a right to their mother's life.

Consider it this way as well by going outside the womb. You have a woman and an toddler isolated with enough food for one of them. Who deserves the food? The woman or the child? The answer is the woman. Why? The woman can exist for herself and the toddler can't. If the woman sacrifices herself for the infant, both die.
You know Norman, I find I don't agree with you on a lot of things, but I have to admit the intellectual underpinnings of all your arguments always give me a lot to think about. I've rarely heard the libertarian argument for pro-choice made so succinctly before.

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Old 02-17-2011, 12:27 PM   #47
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You know Norman, I find I don't agree with you on a lot of things, but I have to admit the intellectual underpinnings of all your arguments always give me a lot to think about. I've rarely heard the libertarian argument for pro-choice made so succinctly before.
Thanks

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Old 02-17-2011, 12:32 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Handsome Rob View Post
I don't know why my other post disappeared. If a mod deleted it, then please explain why it was inappropriate. So, I'll ask it again.

SCENARIO:

In the future, the "gay gene" is identified. As a result, the number of abortions goes up as women start to abort fetuses solely because they test positive for the gay gene. Is this morally right or morally wrong?

And once again, as someone who is pro-life, I can easily say that it is morally wrong.
There has been no post deleted in this thread that I can see.

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Old 02-17-2011, 01:40 PM   #49
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A fetus is mot a living thing and has no rights until it is born in my opinion.
(Maybe I'm reading the wording wrong, so if this isn't what you meant please forgive me):

I understand how issues of rights could be a matter of opinion, but wether or not something is a living thing really is not. Something is either alive or it isn't. And the development of a fetus is a gradual thing, it doesn't just switch on the moment it exits the womb, and it can be considered to be a living organism by medical standards some time before it's physically born, and I think the further one gets into a pregnancy the more ethically questionable performing an abortion becomes. That being said, I'm not arguing that life begins at conception or anything like that, there is a period after conception where I would hardly call it a person, nor am I arguing that there aren't countless scenarios where the best or only option is an abortion. What I am saying is that I think there is a point where it's not just about the woman's rights anymore, not that they aren'r a significant factor, but there are other things to consider as well. I'm not in favor of illegalizing abortion, I'm not one for limiting the freedom of anybody, but I disagree with anyone who thinks it's a clear cut issue.

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Old 02-17-2011, 02:45 PM   #50
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Refusing to concede a fetus as a living them, I contend, weakens the foundation of a Pro-Choice argument.

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