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Old 02-19-2011, 08:01 PM   #76
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

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Maybe we can do a Freaky Friday and we'll switch places and I'll be pregnant and you'll have to deal with me.


I think we have a movie, folks.



You cast Elizabeth Banks and James Franco and you have 2012's number one rom-com.

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Old 02-19-2011, 08:10 PM   #77
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

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You cast Elizabeth Banks and James Franco and you have 2012's number one rom-com.
Nah, James Franco will be more like the male lead's sarcastic best friend. This smells more like a Josh Duhamel role.

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Old 02-19-2011, 08:46 PM   #78
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

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A fetus isn't real. It surprises me this debate still rages in modern times, though I guess healthy dialogue can be a good thing even if you're communicating with people who would actually tell a woman what to do with her own body. As if there is some kind of moral justice in giving a woman a list of things she can or cannot do regarding her body..
How is a fetus "not real". One of the greatest successes of the pro-abortion movement is their semantics / linguistic game in creating widespread doubt that a fetus "exists" or is alive. All you have to do is open a scientific textbook and see that a fetus follows the definition of a living human being. That shouldn't be up for debate but you can see how decades of politically correct rhetoric can influence people's thinking process.

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Originally Posted by Anita
That's why the situation sucks. I understand that, but it's still HER body. What makes no sense to me is how a guy could tell a woman to undergo a medical procedure on his say-so and not hers.

If you don't want to get a woman pregnant, you have to make sure you use protection too. Heck, if you're really desperate, I've read about soaking male nether regions in very warm baths - kills sperm, no sweat. (There's a reason why they dangle outside of your core, so they don't overheat.) And no danger of your crazy potential baby mama poking holes in condoms.

It takes two to tango, everyone knows that.
I think its highly hypocritical to suggest that a man be forced to take care of a child he doesn't want because "it takes two to tango" but then say the abortion/pregnancy should be only one person's choice.

I agree life isn't fair. God made men and women different,..He only wanted women to be the ones who carried the burden of giving birth.
I believe abortion wasn't part of God's plan and that is a consequence of why we're having all these confusing legal discussions. If we treated the fetus as a living being entitled to live, we wouldn't be having all these discussions.

I never felt abortion was really much about "health issue"..its just a legally-enforced power move in the gender war as a means for women to control their burden load that they desire with regard to possibly raising a child.

If one can throw up their arms in the air and say "oh well, life isn't fair" to the glaring hypocrisy in this pro-abortion movement position about how one side of the tango can hold power over the other, why can't the same be done...not on behalf of the man....but rather on behalf of the living fetus within the womb of the mother?

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Old 02-19-2011, 09:07 PM   #79
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

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By all means. If I made the above look like I am endorsing a man being able to make a woman partake in ANY kind of medical procedure, that was absolutely not my intention.

I'm simply saying once the child is born it really shouldn't be their problemo.
Then you totally missed my point, because no that was not my point.

My point is, YOU ARE A PART of what you are calling a "problemo"... just because you can't tell her to have an abortion or not, which you wouldn't have that right considering it is a medical procedure, doesn't mean you do not have any responsibility afterwards.

In other words, just because you are not given the responsibility of saying whether the child is born or not, does not mean you still do not bear some of the responsibility. Just because you don't have a say in the medical procedure of another person, doesn't mean you have no responsibility....

The choices you make today, may be the consequences you have to live with tomorrow.... so the choices need to be thought about.

But honestly, if a guy told me...."I wanted you to have an abortion, so its not my problem now...." I would wonder how the hell I got hooked up with such a jack ass....and wouldn't want him near my child anyway.

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Old 02-20-2011, 04:43 AM   #80
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

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I'm not misunderstanding. I'm pretty sure I've read here how guys are at a disadvantage because what the woman wants, goes, even if the guy wants to raise the child himself. The gold-digging baby mama is the more stereotypical situation, but the other situation happens too. Yeah, it sucks, but the right of the woman's choice supersedes everything. You can't force a woman to have an abortion the same way you can't force a woman not to have one.

And this is why one should be educated and have discussions with your partner about these things. Would lessen the suckage!


Agreed Anita

The final decision is ours and ours alone

No one has the right to force a woman to have an abortion or to stop us from having an abortion

Our choice is the only thing that matters in the end. It is our body and our right to choose

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Old 02-20-2011, 09:26 AM   #81
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

House Passes Bill to Cut Federal Funding from Planned Parenthood

I'm okay with this. I'm fairly apathetic on abortion as it is an issue that will never effect me, but I don't think that tax dollars should be used to fund it.

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Old 02-20-2011, 09:29 AM   #82
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

Planned Parenthood has grown into an entity much like ACORN...both had pure motives in their beginnings as to what they wanted to do, but both have grown into inefficient, ineffective government leaches....and IMO, need to be totally dissolved, and start over. I think both perpetuate the "minority, poverty, issue" rather than help it "change" it....

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Old 02-20-2011, 10:25 AM   #83
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

Just what we need. More poor people. I suppose the flood of new babies can be drafted to fight in Afghanistan.




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Old 02-20-2011, 10:32 AM   #84
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

Ooooor maybe empower the young women, show them the importance of education, not the importance of getting on the welfare rolls like their mother and grandmother. How about we move to break that cycle, and start a cycle of education from mother to child to mother....

Rather than simply continue the cycle of poverty through these two organizations that no longer do the job they were intended to do, how about we work towards empowerment of these women, rather than the weakness of security in a welfare system that seeks to keep you there, rather than empower you to move on.

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Old 02-20-2011, 10:37 AM   #85
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

So make them do their job. This is the same thing with schools. Everyone wants to blow it all up instead of making this organizations do what they are supposed to.


Planned Parenthood is a needed organization. It's not just abortions but all those actions you cited. The solution doesn't involve throwing out the baby with the bathwater.


Get a new boss in there. Give that girl a once over and get it reorganized from the ground up. Whatever. But don't kill it.



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Old 02-20-2011, 10:41 AM   #86
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

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That's why the situation sucks. I understand that, but it's still HER body. What makes no sense to me is how a guy could tell a woman to undergo a medical procedure on his say-so and not hers.

If you don't want to get a woman pregnant, you have to make sure you use protection too. Heck, if you're really desperate, I've read about soaking male nether regions in very warm baths - kills sperm, no sweat. (There's a reason why they dangle outside of your core, so they don't overheat.) And no danger of your crazy potential baby mama poking holes in condoms.

It takes two to tango, everyone knows that.
I actually known some women who purposely went off birth control to get pregnant on purpose. One guy caught this girl; she was dumb enough to leave the birth control pill capsule holder in the garbage (full view). He went off his nutter of course, and she had a morning after pill. And yea, another story was a condom poking case, the woman supplied the dude a condom cause she said it "felt better". Fortunately for the guy, she eventually had an abortion.

Hell I recall a Dr. Phil story where the girl completely admitted to tricking a guy to get pregnant (birth control pills) and demanded child support. Dr. Phil being the White Knighting imbecile, did not at least call her out on her ********. No he said, the guy is an idiot for not considering all things in terms of birth control. Stuff like this teaches guys not to trust women.

These aren't even the ****ed stories, have you heard of those stories where the women used the "used condom" to inseminate herself? ****ing hell man. They teach this stuff to many upcoming athlete stars; to always flush the condom down the toilet. The story that takes the cake was this one posted in SHH years ago, where the women inseminated herself from oral sex.

I think if the women tricks guys into pregnancies - and for whatever medical reason does not abort - she should lose custody of the child.

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Old 02-20-2011, 10:48 AM   #87
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

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So make them do their job. This is the same thing with schools. Everyone wants to blow it all up instead of making this organizations do what they are supposed to.


Planned Parenthood is a needed organization. It's not just abortions but all those actions you cited. The solution doesn't involve throwing out the baby with the bathwater.


Get a new boss in there. Give that girl a once over and get it reorganized from the ground up. Whatever. But don't kill it.


At this point, the organizations as they stand? You will never be able to MAKE THEM do their jobs. As I stated in my previous posts, I believe both organizations are needed, but not as they are today. I think both should be closed, a major audit done on finances of both, all people must reapply for their jobs....all "appointments" are null and void to be looked at again, and move on from there. Will this take a few years? sure it will, but breaking cycles isn't a quick solution, but it is a sustainable solution that changes the cultures of society. The "culture" of these organizations need to change, and they will not happen in their present state....it just won't.

NONE, of what you just stated in your post was even eluded to in mine....quite the contrary actually.

I am tired of "quick fixes" which usually mean throwing a lot of money into a black hole and "hoping".....that is not working.

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Old 02-20-2011, 10:58 AM   #88
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Poor feedback mechanisms. With companies the feedback mechanism is profit. Now I am not saying profit should be it, I am saying the idea of a feedback mechanism is important.

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Old 02-20-2011, 11:50 AM   #89
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

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No one has a right to exist. You have a right to live - the difference is the difference between a right to healthcare or food or shelter and a right to seek healthcare, food and shelter.

The issue for the mother isn't a matter of kill or save, it's to provide or not to provide. Since no man has the right to another life, the fetus does not have a right to their mother's life.

Consider it this way as well by going outside the womb. You have a woman and an toddler isolated with enough food for one of them. Who deserves the food? The woman or the child? The answer is the woman. Why? The woman can exist for herself and the toddler can't. If the woman sacrifices herself for the infant, both die.
Late response but I think I'm going to argue that line of thought.

You act as though a child and a mother are two separate entities - but while two men don't share any relation that would give them any rights to violate the freedom of the other person, a child and its mother are by default bound in a dependent relationship. Nature made it so that the fetus depends on its mother in the first stage of its life in which it is not able to provide for itself. It's a mechanism necessary to ensure the survival of the offspring which in turn is necessary for the survival of a species. What gives the fetus the right to breach the autonomy of the mother?

The mother does. When the mother exercises her freedom of choice in a conscious act that results in a pregnancy, she willingly puts her independence on the line. (This is notwithstandig rape, obviously, but rape doesn't constitute the majority of what we are talking about, thankfully. As this is a discussion of the fundamental ethics, cases of hardship are excluded.)

When a woman has an abortion, it is only after she got pregnant. I feel like that is often forgotten. It wasn't forced on her. It may have happened because of negligence or ignorance or lack of education or indifference ("When I get pregnant, I can always get an abortion") or bad luck (a busted condom maybe - rarely as it happens) but the first step is almost always one of deliberately taking action and both woman and man are not without fault regarding whatever comes out of the situation - the only innocent party in all of this is the fetus.

The analogy you gave with the toddler and the mother outside of the womb applies to cases where the mother risks her health or even her life by giving birth. That is an exception to the rule, not the rule itself, same as with rape etc. The criteria for abortion is a different one in those cases. Generally speaking, a mother doesn't have to sacrifice herself for her child. She might do it because of a maternal instinct but she has no obligation to.

Maybe I'm just in favor of someone bearing the consequences of their actions, thoughtless as they may have been, and not passing them on to the fetus.

Plus, in societies nowadays you don't even have to provide for the child once it's born. There is a thing called giving it up for adoption.

However, every case is different and I cannot and will not judge people who do whatever they feel is best in their situation. Personally, I am opposed to abortion (except in cases of rape or the mother's health being at risk) because it seems the easiest option out of something that is self-inflicted. And because we are dealing with life, existence and other abstract ethic dimensions, it's fairly problematic. But every woman should have the right to choose for herself. You cannot decide something for other people where there exists no universally applicable formula.

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Old 02-20-2011, 01:23 PM   #90
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

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So make them do their job. This is the same thing with schools. Everyone wants to blow it all up instead of making this organizations do what they are supposed to.


Planned Parenthood is a needed organization. It's not just abortions but all those actions you cited. The solution doesn't involve throwing out the baby with the bathwater.


Get a new boss in there. Give that girl a once over and get it reorganized from the ground up. Whatever. But don't kill it.


We have several tax payer funded organizations (as well as non-profit organizations) designed to help someone get thier life on track. Planned Parenthood has essentially become the go to clinic for a taxpayer funded abortion. As I said, I don't care about abortion one way or another. I wouldn't do it if I were a woman, nor would I advise someone to do it, but it is probably an issue that will never effect me so I wouldn't voted based on it. That said, I don't want my tax dollars paying for it. My money shouldn't be used to fix someone elses' mistake.

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Old 02-20-2011, 01:25 PM   #91
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

I agree with much of what you have said...

As far as the child and mother being separate entities...at a point, they are. When the baby can live outside of the womb, IMO, they are separate entities....

I'm not into the debate, when is the fetus a human, etc...etc....I have no idea, I'll ask God when I see him, but for now, I just don't know. I do believe though, that since this is a medical procedure that carries with it consequences that fall under the medical concerns.....the woman should have the choice of what happens to her body. As far as AFTER the baby is born, that is a whole other set of questions, and is a whole other different subject entirely.

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Old 02-20-2011, 01:26 PM   #92
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

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We have several tax payer funded organizations (as well as non-profit organizations) designed to help someone get thier life on track. Planned Parenthood has essentially become the go to clinic for a taxpayer funded abortion. As I said, I don't care about abortion one way or another. I wouldn't do it if I were a woman, nor would I advise someone to do it, but it is probably an issue that will never effect me so I wouldn't voted based on it. That said, I don't want my tax dollars paying for it. My money shouldn't be used to fix someone elses' mistake.
Never say that it is an issue that will never effect you......I have found in life, that is usually when, in the future, the things we specifically said would not effect us in life, end up hitting us right between the eyes....

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Old 02-22-2011, 08:27 PM   #93
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

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We have several tax payer funded organizations (as well as non-profit organizations) designed to help someone get thier life on track. Planned Parenthood has essentially become the go to clinic for a taxpayer funded abortion. As I said, I don't care about abortion one way or another. I wouldn't do it if I were a woman, nor would I advise someone to do it, but it is probably an issue that will never effect me so I wouldn't voted based on it. That said, I don't want my tax dollars paying for it. My money shouldn't be used to fix someone elses' mistake.
But abortion is only a very small part of what Planned Parenthood does. See what this young woman has to say about how Planned Parenthood helped her with counseling after being date raped:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

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Old 02-22-2011, 08:35 PM   #94
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There are other rape counseling centers though, Anita. If Planned Parenthood is willing to open their books to audits to ensure that taxpayer dollars are not being used on an elective medical procedure, then I'm okay with them receiving funding. But something tells me that they wouldn't be cool with that.

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Old 02-22-2011, 08:46 PM   #95
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There are other rape counseling centers though, Anita. If Planned Parenthood is willing to open their books to audits to ensure that taxpayer dollars are not being used on an elective medical procedure, then I'm okay with them receiving funding. But something tells me that they wouldn't be cool with that.
Name one that's as well-known. My point is that people go to Planned Parenthood for many things. I know people who have gone to clinics for Pap smears and birth control because it's the only place they can afford it. You can go even if you don't have health insurance.

Cutting off all federal funding for the entirety of Planned Parenthood because they make abortion available is completely missing the point, IMO. You might as well make the argument that you shouldn't pay taxes for it because you're not a woman and wouldn't need Pap smears or BC, but then that sounds ridiculous.

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Old 02-22-2011, 08:58 PM   #96
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Then they should open their books to audit to ensure federal money is not going to an elective medical procedure. I mean, if there were an organization that provided all kinds of good services and nose jobs, would you want even a penny of federal money going to the nose jobs?

This is a private organization asking for public money. With that, they should sacrifice certain liberties (such as federal auditing to ensure their money is going to the cause for which it is given).

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Old 02-22-2011, 09:10 PM   #97
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

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Name one that's as well-known. My point is that people go to Planned Parenthood for many things. I know people who have gone to clinics for Pap smears and birth control because it's the only place they can afford it. You can go even if you don't have health insurance.

Cutting off all federal funding for the entirety of Planned Parenthood because they make abortion available is completely missing the point, IMO. You might as well make the argument that you shouldn't pay taxes for it because you're not a woman and wouldn't need Pap smears or BC, but then that sounds ridiculous.
Actually Planned Parenthood isn't really the go to organization for Rape, they are not usually the organization used by police departments, hospitals etc. Cities have several organizations that women go to, most are connected to RAINN which puts them in touch with local rape crisis centers that are best for the individual person. Colleges also don't usually go through Planned Parenthood for rape counseling...

As far as abortions, that according to Planned Parenthood is what about 1/3 of funding is used for....

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Old 02-22-2011, 09:38 PM   #98
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Actually Planned Parenthood isn't really the go to organization for Rape, they are not usually the organization used by police departments, hospitals etc. Cities have several organizations that women go to, most are connected to RAINN which puts them in touch with local rape crisis centers that are best for the individual person. Colleges also don't usually go through Planned Parenthood for rape counseling...

As far as abortions, that according to Planned Parenthood is what about 1/3 of funding is used for....
And considering that the federal government provides 1/3 of Planned Parenthood's funding, yeah, we are basically paying for the abortion aspects.

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Old 02-22-2011, 09:53 PM   #99
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Default Re: Discussion: Abortion II

Why do the GOP (and a big chunk of Dems) only want to cut funding to things that help out poor people? Also I thought the GOP said that they would only focus on jobs, why has most of their focus been on Abortion issues?

Hate or love it, Abortion is legal and I'm tired of it constantly being attacked as if it isn't. America isn't a theocracy so nobody gives a f**k what G-d one prays too. And I say this as a relegious person.

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Old 02-22-2011, 09:58 PM   #100
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Why do the GOP (and a big chunk of Dems) only want to cut funding to things that help out poor people?

Hate or love it, Abortion is legal and I'm tired of it constantly being attacked as if it isn't.
To me its not a matter of legality or otherwise or a party issue. It is a matter of our country being trillions of dollars in debt and each year 350 million dollars is given to this organization and at least some of that money funding abortions. Morality aside, if you are in a position where you need an abortion, in 9 out of 10 cases, you have no one to blame but yourself. My tax dollars should not be going to clean up someone's mistakes.

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