Secret Avengers - Part 1

[TheCorpulent1]

Or for Valkyrie to do more than comment on how sneaking around is stupid before punching people in the face. She literally does nothing but hit people in this series.

[Dread]

Valkyrie's not alone. Does War Machine say anything that isn't tactical mission stuff? Does Beast say more than exposition? Ant-Man is the only one who does, and that is only because he is the snarking, wisecracking type. Under Brubaker, any character other than Rogers, Carter, and to a degree Black Widow is really just there to serve a role in a fight, and sometimes they don't even consistently turn out for that. He's done much better to spotlight Shang Chi than Nova.

Brubaker overall isn't a bad writer. But he isn't perfect, and I think this series has sadly embellished some of his flaws. A team book is not the same as a solo hero book that guest stars other heroes, like CAPTAIN AMERICA usually is. So if the next writer is better able to handle and embellish characters other than Rogers, more power to him, and all of the 6-10 issues he'll have before cancellation. Sue me, I'm a cynic.

[JewishHobbit]

Well... this is a pleasant surprise. I've been debating dropping some books this week due to my budget currently being over extended again and this title is one of them on the chopping block, but I love Beast, Moon Knight, and Prince of Orphans so much that I'd hate to lose the book just yet, but now knowing Bru's leaving in just a few issues I might stick with it until then.

And I don't know squat about this new writer but if there's a chance that other characters could get more spotlight then it's tempting to stick with it. I don't know what this new team is but if Beast and Moon Knight leave then there's nothing keeping me on the book. Oh well.

Originally Posted by Dread

I care about Moon Knight, since Bendis is, as feared, totally ****ing him up in his next ongoing, so I can really only tolerate the character written by others.

Has there been details released of Moon Knight's premise under Bendis?

Edit: Nevermind. I just read it on Newsarama. I've been excited for this series but I don't know that I like how far they take the multiple personalities. I'll likely give it a shot but we'll see.

[Tron Bonne]

Originally Posted by JewishHobbit

And I don't know squat about this new writer but if there's a chance that other characters could get more spotlight then it's tempting to stick with it. I don't know what this new team is but if Beast and Moon Knight leave then there's nothing keeping me on the book. Oh well.

You should drop some other stuff and pick up Thunder Agents and/or the first issue of Infinite Vacation to learn squat about him. He's a great writer, got a good future in store if he continues writing stuff this well.

[runawayboulder]

I'm gonna take a wait and see attitude, his resume's kinda small to begin with.

[Tron Bonne]

That's irrelevant when it's good.

[TheCorpulent1]

Depends. Fraction and Bendis' résumés looked a lot better when they were smaller...

[Tron Bonne]

Well, Fraction's smaller parts of his resume trumps his missteps by miles and decades and centuries. Bendis, maybe less so, but I would have still recommend him to be checked out when he was a riser upper.

[Drz]

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=30797

Well, once we're into the story I'm sure there will be more specifics coming, and with most of these things, the story will reach a point that's a natural turning point, where more tie-ins can spin off of it. But the early book you guys have pointed to, like I said, is "Secret Avengers." That title is interesting in that Nick Spencer is taking the reins on the series. How did he become involved in the book, why do a "Fear Itself" tie-in right now and what does all this mean for the future of "Secret Avengers"?
Brevoort: Well, Ed was coming to an end of his time on the title. I don't know that we've said this anywhere yet, but "Secret Avengers" #12 will be Ed Brubaker's swan song on the book. He realized he had enough other things on his plate and some other stuff coming down the road, and that was the book that strained his mind more than any other. Everyone, including myself, told Ed, "You write a pretty good team book. Your ensemble work is good," but he was not having a wonderful time with it. It didn't flow for him in the same way that writing "Cap" or "Daredevil" or "Criminal" flowed for him. So when he reached critical mass in terms of his workload, he said, "I think I need to wrap on this, and this is a good point to do it. I'll have brought most of my main arc to a boil, but we'll leave it in a good place for other people to pick up the baton and take it forward." And that coincided with "Fear Itself" getting started, so it made sense to me, since those characters and particularly that team will be getting some decent play in "Fear Itself," to look for opportunities for connectivity and tie-ins.
I spoke to Nick about doing four issues of "Secret Avengers" -- one of which would be the Point 1 issue which we already announced, and a three-part "Fear Itself" tie-in. He was enthusiastic and down with it. Quite honestly, I thought of him both because he's a hot, young, up-and-coming voice and because he'd done such great work on "T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents"...which is something you'd never thought you'd hear said in a Marvel column. [Laughter] But he did great work there! And he got people interested and talking about "T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents" which, based on the odds, should have been a book that completely flew under the radar and didn't register with anyone. But it's a book that clearly has an espionage bent to it, and that flavor seemed to translate over to the world of "Secret Avengers" as we've set it up. It seemed like a nice fit, and Nick came on board, and he pitched out in broad strokes what the Point 1 would be and the "Fear Itself" issues. He'll do these three stories, and they'll be personal stories, and they'll be exciting espionage-tinged adventures of the covert Avengers team. He'll get a chance to explore these characters in a little more depth than Matt will be able to in "Fear Itself," just as a matter of page count -- what it means for Steve Rogers to go from a soldier who -- up until this point -- has been more comfortable serving as a foot soldier on the front lines to now being a general overseeing vast numbers of other troops and super heroes in this worldwide battle from behind the lines. Nick will explore what kind of pressure that puts him under and what kinds of choices a General has to make that perhaps Steve isn't as comfortable with. He'll also delve into Valkyrie, given the Asgardian nature of what's going on, as well as some stuff with Natasha once we get to the third issue of the three-issue arc.

[TheCorpulent1]

Originally Posted by Brevoort

Everyone, including myself, told Ed, "You write a pretty good team book. Your ensemble work is good," but he was not having a wonderful time with it. It didn't flow for him in the same way that writing "Cap" or "Daredevil" or "Criminal" flowed for him.

Whew, thank goodness Ed Brubaker, at least, can recognize when Ed Brubaker is out of his depth. Apparently these yes-men editors at Marvel aren't gonna let him know.

[Tron Bonne]

Bet that was a fun meeting.

Marvel: "Damn, Bru, you are really knocking it out of the park. Keeping writing this way, and before you know it, you'll be replacing Brian as our official Avengers guy!"

Brubaker: "You guys are crazy; I'm sucking this up like a weasel sucks eggs."

[Dread]

That is rather telling that it is Brubaker who knows when his work is not at his best, not his editors. And I think this is what I was looking for. Every time a writer becomes so big that their influence is near equal to an editor, their work suffers. I think this hit it right on. Why Bendis and Fraction have slipped up in quality. They're yes-man'd to creative inertia. Brubaker at the very least knows when to cut his losses and try something new or recognizes his own niche.

Good for Brubaker, honestly. It isn't easy to admit to yourself your work isn't your best and to move on even when your bosses are still praising it. That takes some professional integrity, which is rarer in comics than it should be.

However, this means that every time a writer hits the big time, whether they devolve to greatness or Play-Dough depends entirely on their character and ego, and not on their management. Having poor managers is very, very bad. Maybe that's why sales are bad? It isn't the deckhands but the captains in a stormy sea?

That's not to say that Marvel needs editors who are impossible to please maniacs. No. But we don't need extremes. Constructive criticism and even some limitations can inspire greatness. There were two X-Men cartoons, "X-MEN EVOLUTION" and "WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN". The first had so many network restrictions that it all but literally had to break chains of bondage like Hercules; the second was handed the keys to the whole toychest and told to go nuts. The first, as a result, had to force itself to be good despite those limitations while the second, at best, was often underwhelming and not as good as it could have been. Overcoming some adversity is often how the best things are done.

[TheCorpulent1]

Depends on how you look at it. Bendis' managers are doing a great job for Marvel's bottom line by indulging his belief that he writes good Avengers comics.

[Dread]

But is Bendis' ego so bad that he can't be offered any constructive criticism or critique from a boss or editor? Is Fraction's? I haven't met them so I don't know. Surely they had to at some point to get to where they are. I just think out of bad memories from the Jim Shooter era, a lot of editors take almost an opposite approach. Like parents whose own parents were near zealots and who decide to "not be that way" and instead let their kids walk all over them. That could be common denominator as to why so many writers from this era who were perfectly fine when they were smaller time have seen their work quality deteriorate a bit.

Now, most writers/creators/artists of any kind are often the harshest critics of their own work, but outside opinion is also key to quality.

[TheCorpulent1]

Not everyone thinks Bendis' work is terrible. I'm sure the editors fall into the camp that doesn't. Even if they kind of do, the fact that Bendis' work brings in a huge amount of money for the company quells those doubts. Editors aren't necessarily after quality, which is subjective and ultimately pretty meaningless to their employer; they're after sales. It's not necessarily anything nefarious, is what I'm getting at.

[Dread]

Originally Posted by TheCorpulent1

Not everyone thinks Bendis' work is terrible. I'm sure the editors fall into the camp that doesn't. Even if they kind of do, the fact that Bendis' work brings in a huge amount of money for the company quells those doubts. Editors aren't necessarily after quality, which is subjective and ultimately pretty meaningless to their employer; they're after sales. It's not necessarily anything nefarious, is what I'm getting at.

But the thing is, Bendis ISN'T getting those kinds of sales anymore. Beyond a huge promotional push, his limit these days is under 70k - or rather where he was before the last few relaunches of his Avengers books. Revenue that he brings in is inflated because of the high cover price. Many of the "top talent" guys at Marvel only bring in the high cash sales they do because the prices of their comics are high. It is akin to a movie being a "blockbuster" back when tickets were $5 versus when they were $8 or nearly $14 now.

Comics that are utter garbage don't sell as well anymore. Maybe, just maybe, and I know I am a mad man here...it may be time to start making as many of them good again. Not merely important...GOOD. I know, I'm insane.

[TheCorpulent1]

Eh, the industry's never worked that way.

[Dread]

Really? The first 3-4 years of the Joe Q run of Marvel involved a lot of experimentation, a lot of giving wide births to creativity and all that, and that foundation has lead to the successes of later on. Even if some of the execution wasn't always perfect, the IDEAS could have been mined well. Even if you HATED how Grant Morrison actually wrote the X-Men, the IDEAS he injected into them could have fueled no end of creators for decades. Instead Marvel decided to play it safe as soon as possible with almost everything. Now they're reaping what they've sown, which is an alien concept to most people. Y'know, that actions have consequences, so you need to plan carefully?

[Franklin Richards]

Originally Posted by TheCorpulent1

Eh, the industry's never worked that way.

Jim Shooter would kick your ass for saying that.

[Drz]

So does anyone hope we can get Blade to join the Secret Avengers?

[TheCorpulent1]

Not even a little bit.

[Drz]

Racist. Vampires need love too!

EDIT: Tho it could arguebly make sense for him to join with Vampires/Dracula getting more attention, unless Marvel doesn't see Blade useful. =*(

[TheCorpulent1]

It's just not the direction I want to see the Secret Avengers move in. I think they need to use their high-powered members more and do Avengery espionage instead of just forget they even have high-powered members and feature Steve and the Black Widow sneaking into someplace every issue. Too much "secret," not enough "Avengers."

[runawayboulder]

Originally Posted by TheCorpulent1

Too much "secret," not enough "Avengers."

That should be the name if the trade for the first 12 issues.

[Dread]

To be fair, the team did go to Mars for their first 4-5 issues. The problem was they fought nothing interesting there, and Nova was mishandled.

To be honest, you need writer(s) who can take "mundane" plots and find a nice Marvel Universe twist on it. Like how Abnett & Lanning on HEROES FOR HIRE took stories that involved a drug ring, a weapon smuggling ring and a sex slave ring and found ways to make them seem more dramatic and proper for Marvel heroes (making the drug ring Atlantian, making the illegal weapons demonic, and involving Savage Land girls with the sex slave ring).