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Old 12-14-2011, 01:35 AM   #326
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Default Re: Superman's power level

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Originally Posted by ElDuderino View Post
I'm so tired of hearing this ridiculous misconception. Good story telling, acting and visuals make a movie interesting or boring, not whether a character is invincible.
No, a character not be able to die or injured does take a lot away, for both the audience and the characters in the movie.

Of course, then the writers break out the kryptonite.

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Old 12-14-2011, 01:58 AM   #327
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Default Re: Superman's power level

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No, a character not be able to die or injured does take a lot away, for both the audience and the characters in the movie.

Of course, then the writers break out the kryptonite.
No, it takes nothing away. There are literally thousands of stories that can be told. Does it mean you can't tell a story about the character dying or being injured? Yes. Does it mean you can't tell an interesting, visually appealing story? No, absolutely not. So, let's please do your part in making this world a little bit better and stop saying these ridiculous things.

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Old 12-14-2011, 02:08 AM   #328
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He should definitely not be Silver Age levels. He was basically a living breathing plot device then.

Somewhere a little below that. I want to see him still be able to speed blitz. Him and Zod fighting at FTL levels would be a sight to behold.

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Old 12-14-2011, 02:28 AM   #329
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Default Re: Superman's power level

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No, it takes nothing away. There are literally thousands of stories that can be told. Does it mean you can't tell a story about the character dying or being injured? Yes. Does it mean you can't tell an interesting, visually appealing story? No, absolutely not. So, let's please do your part in making this world a little bit better and stop saying these ridiculous things.
I'd reply to you're condescending tone in an appropriate manner, but it would probably get me banned.

My point is simply that invincible characters quickly become dull, because nothing challenges them. That's one of the most common criticisms of Superman, and it's a valid one. I would prefer a powerful, but mortal character, like the original. With some of his later powers.

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Old 12-14-2011, 06:06 AM   #330
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Default Re: Superman's power level

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I'd reply to you're condescending tone in an appropriate manner, but it would probably get me banned.

My point is simply that invincible characters quickly become dull, because nothing challenges them. That's one of the most common criticisms of Superman, and it's a valid one. I would prefer a powerful, but mortal character, like the original. With some of his later powers.
I would disagree, and say that although nothing may challenge a very powerful character physically, they're still as emotionally vulnerable as any human.

And that's where good storytelling, and strong character-driver stories come in. And also why Superman is surrounded by characters we care about - the Kents, Lois, Lana, Jimmy, Perry. Maybe a bullet can't hurt Superman, but if fired at one of them it could hurt him in a totally different way.

I get where you're coming from and unfortunately a lot of writers and storytellers do find it difficult to write something challenging for Superman, and something we can relate to. But I don't blame that on whatever level his powers happen to be at - I blame it on lack of imagination.

Whilst it can be tempting to scale back his powers and thus introduce an element of risk & tension to situations which he is in........................................ the fact remains that the audience is still there to see Superman. I for one want to be amazed and wowed by what he can do. He's the original, biggest and best superhero, and it would irritate me greatly to walk out of the MOS movie feeling slightly unimpressed because Superman wasn't able to do this or do that, and someone in X-Men/Heroes/Avengers/etc DID do it. For me personally, he has to surpass the other superheroes out there in media today.

Clever writing and storytelling should help find a suitable middle ground between impressing the audience, and allowing for some tension and sense of danger in the film.

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Old 12-14-2011, 06:08 AM   #331
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Default Re: Superman's power level

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I'd reply to you're condescending tone in an appropriate manner, but it would probably get me banned.

My point is simply that invincible characters quickly become dull, because nothing challenges them. That's one of the most common criticisms of Superman, and it's a valid one. I would prefer a powerful, but mortal character, like the original. With some of his later powers.
You sound like you haven't read Red Son or All Star Superman.

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Old 12-14-2011, 09:37 AM   #332
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Default Re: Superman's power level

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I'd reply to you're condescending tone in an appropriate manner, but it would probably get me banned.

My point is simply that invincible characters quickly become dull, because nothing challenges them. That's one of the most common criticisms of Superman, and it's a valid one. I would prefer a powerful, but mortal character, like the original. With some of his later powers.
And my point is that it's a common but invalid one. I've explained why. If you repeat a fallacy enough times people just begin to accept it as truth.

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Old 12-14-2011, 02:26 PM   #333
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Default Re: Superman's power level

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And my point is that it's a common but invalid one. I've explained why. If you repeat a fallacy enough times people just begin to accept it as truth.
ACtually, it's valid because it is common. The expectation from a superhero story is that the hero will be put in mortal danger, and faced with a challenge that seems impossible at the time. It is what makes these stories exciting for most. A story that does not deliver that is perceived as dull until someone invests the time and energy into consuming something that they do not expect to like. And they still might not like it if the themes explored are not interesting to them.

The truth is, however, that things do physically challenge Superman, and while you can't really put him in a 'someone is hidden across town and you only have two minutes to save her' situation, there are people you can field to kill him, either physically (Kryptonians incl Bizzaro, Doomsday, Lobo), using their unique powers (Parasite, Myxlsptlk, Brainiac) or Kryptonite (Metallo, Lex Luthor, uh, Conduit)

But the public doesn't really know about that. They think the only way to deal with Superman is Kryptonite, and even other comics fans only know Kryptonite and Magic. After MOS comes out, and people see, oh, there are people who Superman can't go and punch out, a lot of these perceptions will go the way of 'WHIFF BAM Holy National Monuments Batman!'

If a sequel happens, and Braniac or something else non raw power, or even terrestrial is employed, all the better. But this 'great stories can be told without punches' just brings up memories of Superman Returns. And some blame lacking Superman stories on a 'lack of imagination' but someone with that same amount of imagination can go and make a great Batman story, so obviously, there's some discrepancy in difficulty level.

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Old 12-14-2011, 05:12 PM   #334
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The best explanation I've heard for Superman's heat vision actually stems from his X-ray vision. Superman has the unique ability to emit X-Rays (as well as absorb, like most humanoids) from his eyes, and thus that's how he can 'see through' things. But as X-rays are a form of radiation, when he turns the intensity up a lot and focuses them more.......................................... they become heat vision, like a laser. All of these 'vision' powers are made convenient by the massive reserves of solar radiation his body can store.

It will be interesting to see how Snyder makes it look on screen. The Donner Superman films, as we all know, had Superman's heat vision looking like red lasers - which was probably fairly acceptable bearing in mind it was the late 70s, and stuff like Star Wars was making it big. Lasers were cool

In early Smallville episodes, heat vision was shown as shimmering air. This was done in Superman Returns also, though it seemed to be toned back a bit and more subtle. Then in later episodes (presumably as Clark's powers grew and he got older) they became more like beams of fire. I guess the intensity of the heat vision should affect how it looks - a mild beam would realistically look like shimmering/heated air, full force would look like a huge red beam, almost like Cyclop's beam in X-men.

In both Smallville and SR versions, the effect was a pulsating effect, rather than a smooth, constant laser-like beam. I preferred this effect as it looks a bit more organic and less machine-like.

Early -


Later -


Superman Returns -


The strongest depiction in Smallville was when he used his heat vision to completely vaporise a huge flood which was about to hit a man and his young son who were out in the wild. In that scene, the camera angle was from directly in front of his face and the heat vision just made it look like he was engulfed in flames



No matter what effect they use, I'll just be happy to see Superman let loose with the heat vision on Zod in MOS





With regards to his speed, I've no problem with Superman moving at crazy speeds. Whether it's close to the speed of light or halfway there, who cares. They did it in SR (remember the news reports about his activities around the globe, when they alluded to him moving at those speeds?). If the guy has to be capable of stopping multiple speeding bullets, outrun explosions and whatever else Snyder decides to throw at him, why not make him insanely fast? After all, if we can accept a humanoid can move at 5000mph, why not make it 50,000mph or 500,000mph ............... it's not that much more of a stretch of the imagination.



What I meant was, he handled the weight of the plane with ease. His problem (in struggling with it) was getting a grip on the large plane structure itself without it breaking apart. When he finally made his way to the front of the plane as it was about to impale itself nose-first in a baseball pitch, and he finally got a grip on the fuselage structure itself, he was able to lower the plane without too much effort. This was something that SR actually did right, it's about time they had Superman handling large objects 'realistically' without them breaking apart under their own weight.
Agreed.

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Old 12-14-2011, 06:38 PM   #335
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Default Re: Superman's power level

I don't think any where near Silver Age powers can work visually on film. I mean visually he is invisible all the time then. It's not just an issue of interesting writing now like with the comics. Comics can portray that sort of speed or power because they are frozen images. On film, it will look like horrible fake CGI. Someone mentioned a faster than light flight between Superman and Zod. That would be terrible. I'd rather have a weaker Superman who can be portrayed convincingly on film. I'd prefer to have really convincing shots of Superman struggling to catch an airplane or trying to run faster than an out of control bullet train. Those are visually interesting ideas for Superman to do. I don't want a repeat of bad CGI Superman doing boring looking ridiculous feats. Written concepts like an omnipotent Silver Age Superman cannot convincingly be translated to live action. I'm sorry but a lot of those Silver Age stories are filled with plot holes and internal inconsistencies. It would be even worse on film. Don't get me wrong, I love the ideas things like All-Star Superman play around with but I see them as being MORE THAN difficult convincingly and consistently portraying on film.

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Old 12-14-2011, 06:57 PM   #336
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Default Re: Superman's power level

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ACtually, it's valid because it is common.
Defies logic.

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Old 12-14-2011, 07:14 PM   #337
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Default Re: Superman's power level

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It doesn't have to be easy if it's hard to come by. Besides, it's the quintessential superhero Achilles's Heel, it should be properly represented eventually if this becomes a series.
Agreed.

Kryptonite is an important ingrediant of the Superman mythos. You can't just 'get rid of it'.

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Old 12-14-2011, 07:42 PM   #338
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Default Re: Superman's power level

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The strongest depiction in Smallville was when he used his heat vision to completely vaporise a huge flood which was about to hit a man and his young son who were out in the wild. In that scene, the camera angle was from directly in front of his face and the heat vision just made it look like he was engulfed in flames

Which episode was this from?

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Old 12-15-2011, 12:04 AM   #339
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His power level should allow him to punch people across the room like Thor does with Mjolnir.

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Old 12-15-2011, 12:10 AM   #340
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I love this gif. I want to see some pure rage and extreme god-like power in this movie. Directed at Zod, of course.

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Old 12-15-2011, 12:48 AM   #341
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Default Re: Superman's power level

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Defies logic.
"Dull," the issue you called invalid is subjective, based on perception. Such things often defy logic, as they are experiential, not derived.

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Old 12-15-2011, 02:00 AM   #342
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Default Re: Superman's power level

If these are to be mindless, childish action/effects movies, then his power level may be an issue. If they are to be movies that are actually of substance, then his power should be Silver/Bronze Age level. It's rarely about having enough power, it is about dilemmas, at least it is if the stories are of any substance.

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Old 12-15-2011, 02:31 AM   #343
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With Superman, action is part of the equation, and action isn't inherently childish. This is a character built around the idea of a man who can do things that are physically impossible. I like him powerful, much moreso than Byrne or TAS levels, but it gets to a point where it goes from being epic to being cartoonish. My limit is maybe something like pushing a planet, a single planet. Of course, I realize that even that by itself is considered cartoonish by some.

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Old 12-15-2011, 02:36 AM   #344
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No pushing planets thanks. That's the plot device **** i was talking about.

He should be around the level Neo was when he became the One in the Matrix films.

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Old 12-15-2011, 02:40 AM   #345
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Superman should be able to push planets in a story where the situation calls for it. That's the beauty of a serialised format; you can bend the rules a little.

In a movie, though, they expect things to remain consistent.

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Old 12-15-2011, 02:54 AM   #346
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Ehhh see i'd just call that bad writing. If a writer changes a characters powers or actual characterisation to fit a story, instead of writing a story to fit the character, that's bad writing.

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Old 12-15-2011, 03:01 AM   #347
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No pushing planets thanks. That's the plot device **** i was talking about.

He should be around the level Neo was when he became the One in the Matrix films.
I don't even know what the hell you're talking about, my post isn't a response to yours, pal. Maybe you'd prefer him getting a hernia lifting a pickup over his head?

I'm not thinking in terms of plot devices, I just want Superman to be on that level. I actually like the idea of Superman being able to dig deep down and pull off something that mind blowing. It's not about any damn plot devices.

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Old 12-15-2011, 03:08 AM   #348
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I don't want him pushing planets around... and you got getting a hernia from picking up a pick up over his head from that?

Pushing planets around is too over the top for my liking. Punching Zod into the moon causing a massive crater would be awesome though. That sorta strength is what i want to see. Like i said, similar to Neo from the Matrix, but stronger. I want to see Supes speed blitzing, I want to see him and Zod trading punches that cause concussive blasts from the sheer force of the impacts. Stuff like that is still spectacular displays of power we haven't really seen before.

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Old 12-15-2011, 05:19 AM   #349
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Default Re: Superman's power level

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Which episode was this from?
Season 7 Premiere if I remember correctly. In the season 6 finale, Clark faced off against Bizarro inside a dam, and their fight caused the dam wall to crack, eventually leading to the flood. Don't think they'd ever shown Clark using his heat vision at this level before.

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Old 12-15-2011, 09:42 AM   #350
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"Dull," the issue you called invalid is subjective, based on perception. Such things often defy logic, as they are experiential, not derived.
But saying something would be dull and then experiencing it and thinking it is dull are two different things. The popularity of Superman is why the statement defies logic. The reality is, good story telling and great visuals will make a movie interesting. So someone can go in thinking its going to be dull because of X, but when they come out its it's either going to be interesting or dull regardless of X. Being a common misconception doesn't make it true, regardless of taste being subjective.

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