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Old 02-23-2011, 07:48 PM   #251
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Default Re: Kevin Costner up for a role?

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Originally Posted by KyleDW2
Here is what you don't understand. Everyone knows of Superman and his origin. But how many remember the specific story beats? Moreover, how many actually care about them? How many care about the story of Superman? Its the difference between knowing something and seeing something. Like, bringing in a comparison totally out of left field here, hearing a story about being in the middle of a hurricane and being in the middle of one.
To know of Superman's origins is to know his origins, unless you're aiming for a specific interpretation.

What "specific story beats" are you talking about? It's done differently with each telling.

Sometimes Kal-El is a 5 year-old child when his parents put him in the rocket. Sometimes he's all but newborn. Sometimes, as with Byrne, he has yet to be born.

Sometimes Jor-El sends Kal-El to earth as a snap decision, having zero idea where the kid's going to land, and has serious doubts he'll even survive. Sometimes Jor-El knows exactly who the Kents are, having chosen them as worthy to raise Kal-El, and calculates Kal-El's landing point in Kansas with precision.

Sometimes the rocket crashes and is seconds away from exploding with Kal-El inside. Sometimes it is a high-tech shuttle that manually touches safely down on the ground.

Sometimes the Kents decide instantly that they want to adopt him. Sometimes Martha needs to convince Jonathan. In the early days, neither of them were quite sure, so admitted him into an orphanage until later.


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Old 02-23-2011, 09:02 PM   #252
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Default Re: Kevin Costner up for a role?

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Here is what you don't understand. Everyone knows of Superman and his origin. But how many remember the specific story beats? Moreover, how many actually care about them? How many care about the story of Superman? Its the difference between knowing something and seeing something. Like, bringing in a comparison totally out of left field here, hearing a story about being in the middle of a hurricane and being in the middle of one.

Also, done to death you say? How many times has Superman's origin been told on film in the last 30 years? Because that's really the only one that matters. I could have said that Batman's origin has been retold in comics and cartoons and in the original movie, the same with Iron Man sans movie, or Hulk with the old 70's show. And yet we got new origins for each of them. This is because, when you start the story, you generally start it from the beginning in order to ease new viewers into the story. Its interesting because I've found that, for some Superman fans, the concept that anyone could be considered new to the character is just beyond them. That kind of thinking is what led to Superman Returns, a movie that started five years after Superman left Earth with zero though about catching new viewers up. It just assumed people knew about the first few movies and, more importantly, that they gave a damn about them. Do we really want to make that same mistake again?
Superman Returns problems had nothing to do with the existence of S:TM and SII, I guarantee you a tight action blockbuster Superman Returns that's actually fun instead of melodramatic would've been a hit with audiences, regardless of continuity.

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The problem is a great deal of Superman "fans" think the only two stories with him that people want to see is his origin and his death.

Not that I am opposed or insistent on the new movie being an origin film myself; I can go either way with it to be honest. It's all in the execution and how much Nolan and Snyder understand Superman and respect Jerry Siegel. Considering the fact that the main motivation for this production is to keep the rights and the money away from his daughter, I would say they (WB) respect Siegel very little if at all and understand his work even less. Much like many alleged Superman fans.
I completely agree 100% bro. You have nailed it on the head.

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Old 02-23-2011, 09:15 PM   #253
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Default Re: Kevin Costner up for a role?

"fans"

"alleged superman fans"

dick quotes are always classy.

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Old 02-23-2011, 09:31 PM   #254
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He's right, though.

Superman is the only character ive seen where his own fans disrespect the original intentions and core of the character. If someone pissed on stan lee's spidey or bill finger's batman the way people do siegel's superman, bat and spidey fans would be all over that person. Here, its ok, because somehow everything before 1986 is awful and donner is the devil and all this other ridiculous crap.

All I know is, Kane and Finger's roots are still firmly implanted in Batman. Spider-Man at his core is still the unlucky guy Stan Lee and Steve Ditko made. Superman?

Can't get his feet off the ground, and the only reason they're making a movie is because they have to. His comics don't sell like they're supposed to, and his biggest media representation is on a second rate network thats been shuffled off to friday nights. In part because people wanna change who he was designed to be.

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Old 02-23-2011, 09:34 PM   #255
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Nah

He has done well acting angry in plenty of films. Wyatt Earp, Dances With Wolves, Open Range, Untouchables, JFK.....
Watch 13 Days. It's a movie like that that makes me hate Costner's acting. He ruined Untouchables too.

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Old 02-23-2011, 09:42 PM   #256
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He's right, though.

Superman is the only character ive seen where his own fans disrespect the intentions of the character. If someone pissed on stan lee's spidey or bill finger's batman the way people do siegel's superman, bat and spidey fans would be all over that person. Here, its ok, because somehow everything before 1986 is awful and donner is the devil and all this other ridiculous crap.
I'm really not sure what you are saying. When do people "piss" on "Siegel's Superman?"

Are you talking about not caring for "golden" age stories?

Comparing to Spider-man is a bit different considering the character, and his stories, have been rather consistent, looking at where he was then, and where he is now (even before Brand New Day,) relatively speaking, in comparison to Superman then and now.

Even still, is there really that much "pissing" on him, if that's what you are referring to? I could see if we were talking more Silver Age, in which case, there would be just as much for Batman, so I'd still be confused as to what you are talking about.

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Old 02-23-2011, 09:54 PM   #257
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From deviantART




Dont know where the original is from (Smallville maybe?), but it's pretty cool. A very determined Jonathan though, like someone was coming for Kal-El.
Something seems off about that poster.

Found this on AICN...

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Old 02-23-2011, 10:08 PM   #258
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Default Re: Kevin Costner up for a role?

I really hate the notion that because we're not fans of the "Golden Age" era of Superman and/or Siegels original vision that we're not real fans.

Frankly I don't understand why others seem to make it a point to talk down to those of us who appreciate the character for who he is now and what he has evolved into over the past 70+ years.

I respect the Golden Age era. But frankly, I find Superman to be a much more compelling character now than in his original characterization.

And to suggest that because I find him more interesting the way he is now, doesn't make me a "real fan" just really gets under my skin.

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Old 02-23-2011, 10:12 PM   #259
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Default Re: Kevin Costner up for a role?

There is something great to find in all eras.

Saying someone isn't a fan because they enjoy a certain interpretation is just flat out intolerant and naive.

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Old 02-23-2011, 10:33 PM   #260
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Sooo...you don't like the Silver Age Superman? Because he had God like unlimited powers instead of the toned down powers of post-Crisis Superman, he had a completely awesome childhood full of loving parents and fun adventure instead of the subdued with-great-powers childhood and adulthood his parents made him have and his parents passed peacefully away instead of having Brainiac giving his old man a heart attack.
Awesome childhood...until they got sick and died within a week of one another. That's the difference. They died and although he tried everything he could to cure them, he was unable to.

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But again, what do I know? Why even bother arguing with the one human being on the planet that gets to decide what is and is not a valid contribution to the history of a 75 year old character. I just grew up and loved the apparently infinitely inferior "fail comics." So I guess I'll just never understand your position. And you know what? I feel damn lucky for that.
Like I have always said, it isn't about me and it isn't about you either. What matters to me is the character and his creators. Superman has declined since DC/WB have lost touch with who he is and what Siegel and Shuster meant for him to be. It's just the truth.

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He's right, though.

Superman is the only character ive seen where his own fans disrespect the original intentions and core of the character. If someone pissed on stan lee's spidey or bill finger's batman the way people do siegel's superman, bat and spidey fans would be all over that person. Here, its ok, because somehow everything before 1986 is awful and donner is the devil and all this other ridiculous crap.

All I know is, Kane and Finger's roots are still firmly implanted in Batman. Spider-Man at his core is still the unlucky guy Stan Lee and Steve Ditko made. Superman?

Can't get his feet off the ground, and the only reason they're making a movie is because they have to. His comics don't sell like they're supposed to, and his biggest media representation is on a second rate network thats been shuffled off to friday nights. In part because people wanna change who he was designed to be.
Precisely. They turned Superman completely around in an attempt to make him into a Marvel character and it has been a wretched failure. It's unreal just how much they have lost their way with him...it would take some pretty big changes to bring him back to who he is supposed to be. DC would first have to acknowledge the problem itself.

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Old 02-23-2011, 10:36 PM   #261
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Default Re: Kevin Costner up for a role?

A lot of good elements have been dropped and replaced by lackluster one's thats for sure.

I think Snyder will hopefully understand this and I hope Goyer and Nolan did too otherwise we'll probably not see Superman on the silver screen for a long time.

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Old 02-23-2011, 10:39 PM   #262
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Old 02-24-2011, 12:24 AM   #263
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Just because Superman's parents are alive doesn't mean he has to be a wuss. He can be a strong charactor without killing his Mom and Dad. If Superman must feel the pain of loss, then why not kill Lana Lang? Superman understands he can't save everyone, and he gets to keep his Ma and Pa.

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Old 02-24-2011, 12:51 AM   #264
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Mostly because the loss of his parents reflects how Jerry Siegel lost his parents-his father to murder, his mother to estrangement over his first marriage. Plus Lana Lang isn't even a Jerry Siegel character-Don Cameron created her. The scenes of Superman running home to momma are just too saccharine.

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Old 02-24-2011, 01:26 AM   #265
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personally...i'd like to see Superman's parents alive, simply because it would mean he decides to become Superman based of his worldly experiences and not because of any particular loved one's death. it would also be a great contrast to Batman, who lost his parents. Bruce Wayne was a boy born with a silver spoon, ended up losing everything dear to him at a young age and remains bitter and turns his own fears to frighten the wicked. Clark Kent was a baby thrown into a modest, hardworking life, ends up having an ideal home which molds him into the ultimate authoritative figure, and who uses the great ideals that his parents taught him to inspire hope in those who have potential.

also, taking away even one of his parents means it's ultimately a selfish act for him to become Superman. a need to vindicate himself because he couldn't protect or prevent the inevitable happening to his parents as opposed to wanting to use his gifts in order to create an example of ultimate positive morality for others to follow and better mankind (they can be a great people, Kal-El, they wish to be!). i know that taking away ones parents always ends up with a more bitter individual and i don't want that from a pre-Superman Clark Kent.

as for Siegel...he originally made Superman a villain with mental powers, then he changed him into a baby sent back in time, and he then changed him into a Superman that's more familiar to us today (though he could only LEAP very far, not yet fly). so while the death of his father inspired him to create the ultimate hero that doesn't necessarily mean what's best for Superman's story is that his life reflect Siegel's own life. Superman isn't James Bond. Superman went through several renditions before AND after his initial popularity in order to mold him into the hero he is today. as long as the important elements remain (alien from Krypton, raised by the Kents in Smallville, secret identity, Lois, Lex, etc...) the heart of Superman is still in tact and so is his dignity.

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Old 02-24-2011, 03:19 AM   #266
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Old 02-24-2011, 03:59 AM   #267
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personally...i'd like to see Superman's parents alive, simply because it would mean he decides to become Superman based of his worldly experiences and not because of any particular loved one's death. it would also be a great contrast to Batman, who lost his parents. Bruce Wayne was a boy born with a silver spoon, ended up losing everything dear to him at a young age and remains bitter who uses his own fears to frighten the wicked. Clark Kent was a baby thrown into a modest, hardworking life and ends up having an ideal home which molds him into the ultimate authoritative figure who uses the great ideals that his parents taught him to inspire hope in those who have potential.

also, taking away even one of his parents means it's ultimately a selfish act for him to become Superman. a need to vindicate himself because he couldn't protect or prevent the inevitable happening to his parents as opposed to wanting to use his gifts in order to create an example of ultimate positive morality for others to follow. i know that taking away ones parents always ends up with a more bitter individual and i don't want that from a pre-Superman Clark Kent.

as for Siegel...he originally made Superman a villain with mental powers, then he changed him into a baby sent back in time, and he then changed him into a Superman that's more familiar to us today (though he could only LEAP very far, not yet fly). so while the death of his father inspired him to create the ultimate hero that doesn't necessarily mean what's best for Superman's story is that his parents reflect Siegel's own life. Superman isn't James Bond. Superman went through several renditions before AND after his initial popularity in order to mold him into the hero he is today. as long as the important elements remain (alien from Krypton, raised by the Kents in Smallville, secret identity, Lois, Lex, etc...) the heart of Superman is still in tact and so is his dignity.
Well said.

I grew tired of these discussions with these ignorant and full of ego fans that think if i like a particular era, i`m less of a Superman fan. You know what? So be it! I dont give a damn about what they think or not. All I know is that Superman for all seasons is the best goddamn Superman story i've ever read and thats all! In there, nobody dies for him to become a hero, he becomes because it is the right thing to do. Because he understands the responsibility of his powers when people are in danger, like when it was shown in the first issue when the Tornado hits.

Moreover, Luthor tries to diminish his spirit by showing Superman the lesson that he cant save everybody making everything more powerful. He then wonders why be a Superman if I can't save everybody?

In the end, he overcomes it all with dignity and respect and becomes the greatest hero of all!! He learns that being Superman has always been about being an example and not fixing the world's problems. And he saves everyone in the end, even going through all the hustle to save his dog.

This the perfect Superman story to me, i dont care what anyone says!

I very much prefer this down-to-earth, human, Superman tale than some other famous story that is indulgent, egocentric and a kiss to the Silver age with stupid characters like a race of reptilian people living in the Earth's core and another one that is a kiss to Donner with a Donut driven Parasite...


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Old 02-24-2011, 09:26 AM   #268
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His comics don't sell like they're supposed to,
Now this is an interesting quote. Supposed to. Just how are Superman comics "supposed to" sell? Is Superman entitled to be the best selling comic ever for all time? Or can audiences like and drift toward other heroes from time to time? And maybe its not even anything DC has done but just the changing of audience taste over time. They like complex heroes like Spider-Man who have their personal problems up front which the Golden/Silver Age Superman never had because he was Superman only and Clark Kent was just his wussy disguise. They like dark heroes like Batman because he's just so out there and extreme in his execution of crime fighting. Plus, Morrison writing him right now doesn't hurt.

Again, this attitude that Superman deserves to be a best seller is one of the things that hurt Superman Returns. Oh sure, let's have a two and a half hour long low action romantic drama with Superman staring in it. We don't need action. Its Superman. Of course people will show up to watch it. Well, no. The people making this still have to convince the audience to show up and watch this, even if you think its "supposed to" sell well.

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Old 02-24-2011, 09:35 AM   #269
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Like I have always said, it isn't about me and it isn't about you either.
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They turned Superman completely around in an attempt to make him into a Marvel character and it has been a wretched failure. It's unreal just how much they have lost their way with him...it would take some pretty big changes to bring him back to who he is supposed to be.
Oh no, this totally isn't about you. No, the use of words like, "wretched failure" and "unreal just how much they have lost their way" are totally unbaised. Its obvious that in making Superman the second or third highest selling DC Comics character instead of its first in a time where comic sales have dropped off across the board means they have RUINED THE CHARACTER FOREVER!!! There is absolutely no personal feeling in your arguments whatsoever. How could there be? You are way too rational to put your personal feelings on a message board and interpret them as fact...right?

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Old 02-24-2011, 09:36 AM   #270
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The scenes of Superman running home to momma are just too saccharine.
...for you. I think you forgot to add that part in there.

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Old 02-24-2011, 09:41 AM   #271
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Well said.

I grew tired of these discussions with these ignorant and full of ego fans that think if i like a particular era, i`m less of a Superman fan. You know what? So be it! I dont give a damn about what they think or not. All I know is that Superman for all seasons is the best goddamn Superman story i've ever read and thats all! In there, nobody dies for him to become a hero, he becomes because it is the right thing to do. Because he understands the responsibility of his powers when people are in danger, like when it was shown in the first issue when the Tornado hits.

Moreover, Luthor tries to diminish his spirit by showing Superman the lesson that he cant save everybody making everything more powerful. He then wonders why be a Superman if I can't save everybody?

In the end, he overcomes it all with dignity and respect and becomes the greatest hero of all!! He learns that being Superman has always been about being an example and not fixing the world's problems. And he saves everyone in the end, even going through all the hustle to save his dog.

This the perfect Superman story to me, i dont care what anyone says!

I very much prefer this down-to-earth, human, Superman tale than some other famous story that is indulgent, egocentric and a kiss to the Silver age with stupid characters like a race of reptilian people living in the Earth's core and another one that is a kiss to Donner with a Donut driven Parasite...
You, good sir, as well as the poster you quoted, get cookies. Oatmeal raisin if you please.

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Old 02-24-2011, 11:04 AM   #272
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Is Superman entitled to be the best selling comic ever for all time?l
Yup.

I'd address the rest of your post, but you've confused "this character isn't living up to its potential" with "It's Superman, he'll sell well no matter what we do", the latter being the stance DC has taken with the character for the past few decades, and which also isnt the point of my post at all.

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Old 02-24-2011, 11:45 AM   #273
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I'm really not sure what you are saying. When do people "piss" on "Siegel's Superman?"

Are you talking about not caring for "golden" age stories?

Comparing to Spider-man is a bit different considering the character, and his stories, have been rather consistent, looking at where he was then, and where he is now (even before Brand New Day,) relatively speaking, in comparison to Superman then and now.

Even still, is there really that much "pissing" on him, if that's what you are referring to? I could see if we were talking more Silver Age, in which case, there would be just as much for Batman, so I'd still be confused as to what you are talking about.
No, I'm talking about the concepts Siegel originally established, mainly in relation to Superman/Kent himself.

Clark Kent was a guy pretending to be a somewhat awkward mild mannered reporter at his job. How awkward/goofy he gets does not matter. Now, fans think that's stupid, cause he should be a "Real guy" at his job, like Peter Parker. By comparison, no batfan would say "I dont want Bruce Wayne to act like a dumb billionaire, he should be a real guy".

Clark's parents passed on at a young age. Now fans hate that cause somehow that makes him more like Batman, despite the fact that his foster parent's death was just something that happened in his life, not a "I will avenge you by becoming Superman" moment.


Siegel designed a character whose superhero persona represented a wish fufillment. Clark Kent represented the everyman who was the odd man out at his job, who couldnt get the girl, who'd experienced loss, who had an everyman's life....but could also become the superhero many of us wish we could be.

Now, he's a successful pullizter prize winner. He has the girl of his dreams. Up until recently, both parents were still alive, and depending on the version of supes, he dosent really miss his bioligical parents much.

Fans prefer the latter nowadays. That's fine....the problem is when people start treating everything before 86' like a 1 dimensional abomination with no value, especially when said people havent even READ much of the very era they bash. Most dont seem to understand that Donner Superman has little in common with pre crisis, yet they lump them in the same category, then get mad when people question their fanhood.

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Old 02-24-2011, 01:19 PM   #274
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Siegel designed a character whose superhero persona represented a wish fufillment. Clark Kent represented the everyman who was the odd man out at his job, who couldnt get the girl, who'd experienced loss, who had an everyman's life....but could also become the superhero many of us wish we could be.
Correct me if im wrong but this description sound an awful lot like Spider-man not Superman.

Peter Parker is the nerd, the everyman, who is unhappy with life, cant get the girl he wants and experience loss(death of uncle ben) and have an everyman's life...

That doesnt sound like Superman at all to me.

Superman to me is the guy who uses his powers to save people because its the right thing to do. Because he cares for everybody. And this lesson he learned by having down-to-eath moral values living in Smallville. And he is ALSO Clark Kent who becomes a reporter because he believes that writing can change the world, by exposing the truth and that's who he was at post-crisis. Maybe YOU are the ones who never read post-crisis stories...

Thank god Superman has evolved from S&S original idea. The greatest characters evolve and Superman is no different.

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Old 02-24-2011, 01:20 PM   #275
Zack Snyder
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Default Re: Kevin Costner up for a role?

I still want Dennis Quaid. Just to be on the record

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