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Old 07-11-2011, 03:53 AM   #101
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Default Re: lessons to learn from previous movies

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Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide View Post
IMO... SR.... IS bad to watch...

I appreciate what you said. That i'd enjoy SR more if I didn't overthink it.

I just don't agree with you.

What editing needs to be done?
cut away all the cheese and the bad story plots? making it more intense and enjoying.

editing like

cut away the following scenes

1. the opening of the screen - where Lex acted as 'gigolo'/precieved as/ to an old lady to con her and inherited all her wealth. (an 'insulting' idea to lex luthor anyway)

2. the voyage to the forterest of solitude.

this is just wasting time as these were sufficedly explained in the scene where lois saying she wanted to investigate on lex as he got freed from jail and inherited a fortune. and the scene where superman found his cryptal in his forterest was stolen.

3. the stealing kryptonite from the museum

this is another boring scene. what up? just wanna include that 2 'cute' screenwriter into the movie???
the scene where lex showed the newspaper about the expo and his intention to steal something from it is suffice enough.

4. any scenes which imply that the kid is a Super kid.

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Old 07-11-2011, 05:32 AM   #102
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Default Re: lessons to learn from previous movies

I think lex's intro in Superman Returna is probably the weakest villain intro that I've seen

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Old 07-11-2011, 06:41 AM   #103
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Default Re: lessons to learn from previous movies

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I think lex's intro in Superman Returna is probably the weakest villain intro that I've seen
Here's how I would have opened SR with Lex.

Fade In

A shot of a door...

We slowly draw closer

and closer

and closer

closer

and then we hear the strange and unnerving sound of...

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
a toilet flushing.

Lex emerges from the bathroom.

He straightens his tie.

He spots a peice of toilet paper stuck to his shoe.

A little girl walks by.

Lex hands her the s****y thing.

He then smugly walks away.

The little girl screams into the night...

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Old 07-11-2011, 07:38 AM   #104
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Default Re: lessons to learn from previous movies

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Originally Posted by sf2 View Post
cut away all the cheese and the bad story plots? making it more intense and enjoying.

editing like

cut away the following scenes

1. the opening of the screen - where Lex acted as 'gigolo'/precieved as/ to an old lady to con her and inherited all her wealth. (an 'insulting' idea to lex luthor anyway)

2. the voyage to the forterest of solitude.

this is just wasting time as these were sufficedly explained in the scene where lois saying she wanted to investigate on lex as he got freed from jail and inherited a fortune. and the scene where superman found his cryptal in his forterest was stolen.

3. the stealing kryptonite from the museum

this is another boring scene. what up? just wanna include that 2 'cute' screenwriter into the movie???
the scene where lex showed the newspaper about the expo and his intention to steal something from it is suffice enough.

4. any scenes which imply that the kid is a Super kid.
Cutting certain scenes wouldn't solve the problem for me. It's the entire vision that needed changing. It should never have been a romantic homage to the old films. It should never have attempted to add to them by giving Superman a kid and Lois a fiance to almost cheat on. It should never have attempted to get the audience engaged by the diabolical plan of 'making land'.

And if you cut all that out... There would only be a few scenes, scenes which I actually like I.e. The plane scene, Rooftop gunfight, Lois taking a ride on Superman's boots, Clark remembering learning to fly, Superman listening to all the people's cries for help, Jimmy and Clark having a drink at the bar etc.

But those scenes don't make a film.

Hey, I appreciate that some people like the film.

I just want something completely different this time.

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Old 07-11-2011, 11:06 AM   #105
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Default Re: lessons to learn from previous movies

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Cutting certain scenes wouldn't solve the problem for me. It's the entire vision that needed changing. It should never have been a romantic homage to the old films. It should never have attempted to add to them by giving Superman a kid and Lois a fiance to almost cheat on. It should never have attempted to get the audience engaged by the diabolical plan of 'making land'.

And if you cut all that out... There would only be a few scenes, scenes which I actually like I.e. The plane scene, Rooftop gunfight, Lois taking a ride on Superman's boots, Clark remembering learning to fly, Superman listening to all the people's cries for help, Jimmy and Clark having a drink at the bar etc.

But those scenes don't make a film.

Hey, I appreciate that some people like the film.

I just want something completely different this time.
the transcript / sysnopsis of SR is quite good actually. superman returns home after 5 years of missing but only to find that the whole world as well as his lover has moved on. he has to fight all the way from... to the deep ocean to stop his old nemssis plan. something like this... never mentioned super kid.

somehow... it was lost in translation...

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Old 07-11-2011, 11:23 AM   #106
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Default Re: lessons to learn from previous movies

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the transcript / sysnopsis of SR is quite good actually. superman returns home after 5 years of missing but only to find that the whole world as well as his lover has moved on. he has to fight all the way from... to the deep ocean to stop his old nemssis plan. something like this... never mentioned super kid.

somehow... it was lost in translation...
Yeah I dunno, still sounds boring to me

Yeah, the idea of how the world would cope if Superman was gone for 5 years is a good one...

...For a Graphic Novel. Not for establishing a modern franchise IMO.

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


*\S/T*
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:10 AM   #107
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Default Re: lessons to learn from previous movies

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Yeah I dunno, still sounds boring to me

Yeah, the idea of how the world would cope if Superman was gone for 5 years is a good one...

...For a Graphic Novel. Not for establishing a modern franchise IMO.
i think it's a very good one...
the limit is only on our imagination.

apparently, Singer has very little, as well as his 2 boys.

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Old 07-20-2011, 02:35 PM   #108
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Default Re: lessons to learn from previous movies

Here's a lesson I hope Snyder learns from Superman Returns:

By supermanrebooted at 2011-07-19

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Old 07-20-2011, 02:55 PM   #109
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Default Re: lessons to learn from previous movies

I hope they recognize that there were more flaws in Superman Returds than just "Superman doesn't punch anyone."

It IS possible to make a great Superman movie where he doesn't fight anyone. I'm not saying that's the Superman movie I want, just that if the story, casting and acting are good, fight scenes aren't essential. What I'm worried about is that they'll just throw in a bunch of action sequences and go too light on the story. So in other words, we'd go from Bryan Singer's Superman Lifts Things to Zach Snyder's Superman Punches Things.

The story and the characterization are what are really going to sell this movie. The action scenes will help make it more exciting, but if you don't give a crap about Superman as a character and what's going on around him, the action sequences aren't going to be interesting. That's why the last two Transformers movies were so bad. It was just a bunch of carnage chock full of characters no one gave a crap about.

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Old 08-03-2011, 04:04 PM   #110
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Default Re: lessons to learn from previous movies

There's not much to learn from previous superman films.

1) Don't do too much of any single thing. Don't omit anything.

Comedy. Drama. Romance. Action. Superman appeals to everyone, when you narrow your focus to a single tone, you exclude a very large group of people who want to enjoy the movie. You've got to have it all.

2) You need spectacle.

This is the reason, and perhaps the only reason, why Superman 78 is a classic. It was big, it was grand, and it gave us something new to see and look at an experience. To be fair, Superman returns had this, but without following rule 1, it ostracized many.

There's much more to be learned from other superhero films:

1) You need Spectacle.

The Matrix. Lord of the Rings. Star Wars. If you've going to spend more than 200M don't waste it on being a copycat. You've got to show something we've never seen before.

2) You need to humble your hero

Even Batman, the most famously 'down to earth' hero had to earn his company back and we had to go with him on his journey from the lowest place on earth to being Batman in order to have an exceptional film. Superman is no different, in fact, it is more imperative for such a powerful character, that the audience feels he deserves his place. This is why half of Thor, he is without his abilities. He has to literally earn them. Iron Man, again, so smart, so gifted, but he had to get sat on his behind and crippled for life, basically, so we could empathize with him on his journey.

3) Do not aim for the comic book status quo

Bruce still doesn't have his batcomputer in his batcave, and there was no sign of Iron Man being Tony Stark's bodyguard. If you're rushing through a chronological origin to get to the cool part, only then to rush the character into a stable status quo, you're losing a lot of time you could be using to tell a good story to serve the comic book, which may get rebooted soon anyway. Better to change things that will make your story better, and certainly keep things from being stale.

4) This is not your daddy's _______

As a corollary of number 3, you don't start with the status quo either. For a character that's fallen out of popularity in recent years, you can't do a by the book origin, because everyone knows it, and everyone feels like they've seen it before. You've got to start them off in jail, or in some foreign country, or both.

5) Deconstruct it

There are things that fly in comics, that need to be deconstructed and explained for the audience to take it 'seriously.' Many fans feel that the audience accepts non-realistic things all the time, not realizing that movies spend 10-30 minutes setting up the story and setting so that these unbelievable thing will feel natural and real and believable. The same needs to be done with the unbelievable things in Superman's mythos, not just powers, but the kryptonite, the glasses disguise, the heat vision... you need to remove it from the cartoon world of anything goes. Even Batman Begins did this. It showed us where his gadgets come from, how he can get them without arousing suspicion and why they work the way they do. It took time to set up these relatively mundane ideas, and the Superman movie will need to do the same with the comic book conventions and fixtures.

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Old 08-04-2011, 02:43 AM   #111
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Default Re: lessons to learn from previous movies

Don't write a movie based off of 10 minutes on a flight.

Close thread.

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Old 08-05-2011, 06:18 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by BH/HHH View Post
2. Yes no memory wipe kisses etc
People apparently don't realize the memory-wipe kiss was an actual, original power from the comics, although used only once or twice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_II#Comics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowsdower! View Post
What I'm worried about is that they'll just throw in a bunch of action sequences and go too light on the story. So in other words, we'd go from Bryan Singer's Superman Lifts Things to Zach Snyder's Superman Punches Things. The story and the characterization are what are really going to sell this movie. The action scenes will help make it more exciting, but if you don't give a crap about Superman as a character and what's going on around him, the action sequences aren't going to be interesting.
Seeing as who was put in charge of the story, I don't think that will be an issue this time around. Singer had a strong story too, it was just one that didn't fit Superman.
A story that suits Superman, and action scenes that are worthy of him. Those two are, in my opinion, perfectly combined with Nolan and Goyer's vision, and Snyder's action flair.


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Old 08-05-2011, 04:52 PM   #113
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Default Re: lessons to learn from previous movies

The briefs are so 1980's. No more in the new film.

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Old 08-05-2011, 04:53 PM   #114
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Default Re: lessons to learn from previous movies

Also, not EVERYTHING has to be dark.

Superman shouldn't be Batman, but the opposite.

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Old 11-12-2011, 11:55 PM   #115
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i don't know where to put it, so i put it here.

i think a bad ending will really spoil the whole movie...
and to portray a hero... it isn't just to show how great he can battle and kill... it's more on to show how he does his best to save his people... even his enemy... (my thought after watching immortals)

i hope synder wil not do the same mistakes... by just showing us the grand battle of superman with zod and his troops... please show us more on superman saving the innocents while the threats come.

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Old 11-13-2011, 11:23 AM   #116
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Default Re: lessons to learn from previous movies

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5) Deconstruct it

There are things that fly in comics, that need to be deconstructed and explained for the audience to take it 'seriously.' Many fans feel that the audience accepts non-realistic things all the time, not realizing that movies spend 10-30 minutes setting up the story and setting so that these unbelievable thing will feel natural and real and believable. The same needs to be done with the unbelievable things in Superman's mythos, not just powers, but the kryptonite, the glasses disguise, the heat vision... you need to remove it from the cartoon world of anything goes. Even Batman Begins did this. It showed us where his gadgets come from, how he can get them without arousing suspicion and why they work the way they do. It took time to set up these relatively mundane ideas, and the Superman movie will need to do the same with the comic book conventions and fixtures.
I agree with this as long as it doesn't drag. In BB it was overdone, it made the audience to wait a lot because we needed to know even where the cowls were ordered and what material were they made of (even that they could be broken, which served no purpose since Batman's cowl was never in danger of being broken later in the story).

And then when we were ready for Batman... you could barely see him. That was one huge turn off man.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowsdower! View Post
It IS possible to make a great Superman movie where he doesn't fight anyone. I'm not saying that's the Superman movie I want, just that if the story, casting and acting are good, fight scenes aren't essential. What I'm worried about is that they'll just throw in a bunch of action sequences and go too light on the story. So in other words, we'd go from Bryan Singer's Superman Lifts Things to Zach Snyder's Superman Punches Things.
It is probably going to be. I'm counting on the opposite of course, but Hollywood tends to overdo things, specially when they feel audiences were very critical of the last movie. When they did TIH they were scared of being too slow (as in Ang Lee's movie) so they rushed the story to no end.

I can easily picture Superman punching whatever is in front of him just to shake this criticism off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowsdower! View Post
The story and the characterization are what are really going to sell this movie. The action scenes will help make it more exciting, but if you don't give a crap about Superman as a character and what's going on around him, the action sequences aren't going to be interesting. That's why the last two Transformers movies were so bad. It was just a bunch of carnage chock full of characters no one gave a crap about.
Snyder's portrayal of characters is usually a little less good than what the script offers.





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People apparently don't realize the memory-wipe kiss was an actual, original power from the comics, although used only once or twice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_II#Comics
No offense but being in the comics has never meant it's a good idea.

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Seeing as who was put in charge of the story, I don't think that will be an issue this time around. Singer had a strong story too, it was just one that didn't fit Superman.
A story that suits Superman, and action scenes that are worthy of him. Those two are, in my opinion, perfectly combined with Nolan and Goyer's vision, and Snyder's action flair.
Goyer is in charge of the story. Last time I saw a comic book movie written by him the dialogues left a lot to be desired.

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Old 11-13-2011, 11:45 AM   #117
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They should establish what exactly Supes can and cant do early on and stick to it. The first two films are great but i dont wanna see any of the "Oh. Did i forget to mention i can teleport/rewind time/use my emblem as a a weapon?" stuff those movies relied so heavily on.

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Old 11-13-2011, 11:48 AM   #118
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They should establish what exactly Supes can and cant do early on and stick to it. The first two films are great but i dont wanna see any of the "Oh. Did i forget to mention i can teleport/rewind time/use my emblem as a a weapon?" stuff those movies relied so heavily on.
Exactly. Set the rules and then play by them. Everybody likes that.

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Old 11-17-2011, 09:47 AM   #119
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Focus on the hero story. Not on the villain story /plan to take over the world

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Old 11-17-2011, 11:34 AM   #120
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Back in the 70's, it was enough to say that we would believe a man could fly. Post-2000, we get it. We have the Matrix movies. We have giant robots that turn into cars and look lifelike while doing it. Mutants and space monsters are now commonplace in blockbuster action movies. Its not enough to have Superman slowly flying around and lifting something really heavy. Again, back in 1978, that would have looked really cool. Now, its commonplace. We need more than that.
QFT

One of the many reasons SR was not entertaining. The only action in it seemed lame compared to the action we get in most sci-fi action movies these days.

Superman needs to up the ante.

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Old 11-17-2011, 01:01 PM   #121
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Good suggestions guys...

One thing I don't want to see in the new movie, is the use of the theme: "fear" to analyze and meditate on. Too many superhero movies have wasted countless lines of dialogue discussing "fear" in a shallow way.

After watching Green Lantern, the dialogue I came away with was: "If you fear on the fear that fears you, you will fear what you fear, which will cause you to fear the fearful. So you must use fear to prey on those that use fear to cause fear. FEAR!"

Batman Begins has already handled the theme of "fear" well enough, find a more compelling theme to base your movie on.


I think a great theme for Man of Steel to capitalize on would be "intervention".

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Old 11-17-2011, 01:17 PM   #122
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Good suggestions guys...

One thing I don't want to see in the new movie, is the use of the theme: "fear" to analyze and meditate on. Too many superhero movies have wasted countless lines of dialogue discussing "fear" in a shallow way.

After watching Green Lantern, the dialogue I came away with was: "If you fear on the fear that fears you, you will fear what you fear, which will cause you to fear the fearful. So you must use fear to prey on those that use fear to cause fear. FEAR!"

Batman Begins has already handled the theme of "fear" well enough, find a more compelling theme to base your movie on.


I think a great theme for Man of Steel to capitalize on would be "intervention".
LOL

I approve of you making fun of this.

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Old 11-17-2011, 01:43 PM   #123
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LOL

I approve of you making fun of this.
Thanks, I'm not the first one to be highly annoyed by it.

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Old 11-17-2011, 03:38 PM   #124
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Good suggestions guys...

One thing I don't want to see in the new movie, is the use of the theme: "fear" to analyze and meditate on. Too many superhero movies have wasted countless lines of dialogue discussing "fear" in a shallow way.

After watching Green Lantern, the dialogue I came away with was: "If you fear on the fear that fears you, you will fear what you fear, which will cause you to fear the fearful. So you must use fear to prey on those that use fear to cause fear. FEAR!"

Batman Begins has already handled the theme of "fear" well enough, find a more compelling theme to base your movie on.


I think a great theme for Man of Steel to capitalize on would be "intervention".
That's a lot of fear for any one movie. I'm fearful just reading it...

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Old 11-17-2011, 09:25 PM   #125
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Good suggestions guys...

One thing I don't want to see in the new movie, is the use of the theme: "fear" to analyze and meditate on. Too many superhero movies have wasted countless lines of dialogue discussing "fear" in a shallow way.

After watching Green Lantern, the dialogue I came away with was: "If you fear on the fear that fears you, you will fear what you fear, which will cause you to fear the fearful. So you must use fear to prey on those that use fear to cause fear. FEAR!"

Batman Begins has already handled the theme of "fear" well enough, find a more compelling theme to base your movie on.
Heh. Well, I haven't seen Green Lantern yet. But if I had to pick one unique example of bad writing respect of the amateurish use of one cocept, that would be precisely Batman Begins.

The way you described the overuse of the word 'fear' in GL is exactly the way I describe it in BB.

While Nolan showed us/made us feel what the movie was precisely about with the first scene (Bruce in the cave surrounded by bats) alone, Goyer came and though 'okay, but people might forget the concept or maybe they didn't get it, so instead of showing fear I'll just repeat the word over and over. But since I'm a pro, I'll intelligent and wisely disguise the word as "afraid" or maybe "don't be afraid." Nobody will notice."

BB did many things well but handling the word 'fear' was not one of them.

I don't remember Superman Returns doing such an amateurish misuse of a word so we need to advice anyone involved to not to do this.

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