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Old 11-17-2011, 11:42 PM   #126
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Heh. Well, I haven't seen Green Lantern yet. But if I had to pick one unique example of bad writing respect of the amateurish use of one cocept, that would be precisely Batman Begins.

The way you described the overuse of the word 'fear' in GL is exactly the way I describe it in BB.

While Nolan showed us/made us feel what the movie was precisely about with the first scene (Bruce in the cave surrounded by bats) alone, Goyer came and though 'okay, but people might forget the concept or maybe they didn't get it, so instead of showing fear I'll just repeat the word over and over. But since I'm a pro, I'll intelligent and wisely disguise the word as "afraid" or maybe "don't be afraid." Nobody will notice."

BB did many things well but handling the word 'fear' was not one of them.

I don't remember Superman Returns doing such an amateurish misuse of a word so we need to advice anyone involved to not to do this.
Well Green Lantern makes Batman Begins' handling of the "fear" theme seem completely sublime. I agree they repeat the word "fear" in BB a lot, but I also think the theme reached a cathartic end when Bruce rises and accepts the bats flapping around him. Something that Green Lantern doesn't properly do..

I think the superhero film that best handled fear in terms of repression was Ang Lee's Hulk. Superman Returns didn't harp on fear...the only thing that annoyed me with Superman Returns dialogue-wise was aping too much of the Donner dialogue.

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Old 11-17-2011, 11:46 PM   #127
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Default Re: lessons to learn from previous movies

Let's start with not making a beat for beat remake of a film that was made for a previous generation of film goers.

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Old 11-18-2011, 08:32 AM   #128
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Well Green Lantern makes Batman Begins' handling of the "fear" theme seem completely sublime.
Bad versus very bad. Yeah, I know how it works.

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I agree they repeat the word "fear" in BB a lot, but I also think the theme reached a cathartic end when Bruce rises and accepts the bats flapping around him.
Which, again, had everything to do with the images and NOTHING to do with the automatic repetition of the word fear that Goyer so uninspiredly proposed.

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I think the superhero film that best handled fear in terms of repression was Ang Lee's Hulk. Superman Returns didn't harp on fear...the only thing that annoyed me with Superman Returns dialogue-wise was aping too much of the Donner dialogue.
I don't think 'fear' was a theme in SR at all, or was it?

And I completely agree; the continuous STM quoting got old reaaaaally soon. One quote when Superman and Lois met again would have been more than enough.




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Let's start with not making a beat for beat remake of a film that was made for a previous generation of film goers.
Well, movies like BB and SM1 - specially this last one - followed closely the STM structure. I mean, Spiderman rescuing MJ at that parade and taking her out for a 'flight' after which she feels attracted to him...

I don't think it's the structure what was made for a previous generation, but certain aspects of it (humourous villiain with lousy henchmen).

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Old 11-18-2011, 11:38 PM   #129
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Default Re: lessons to learn from previous movies

having said that do you think a mean main villain with funny henchmen still work?

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Old 11-19-2011, 01:05 AM   #130
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having said that do you think a mean main villain with funny henchmen still work?
I think it's time for that aspect of Superman on film to be retired. I want villains who are a true threat to him and everything he holds dear. No weird headed tattooed henchmen who play the piano with a smirk, no Parker Poseys, no Ned Beatys, but people who have the real potential to make him suffer both physically and emotionally.

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Old 11-19-2011, 07:20 AM   #131
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having said that do you think a mean main villain with funny henchmen still work?
No.

It worked just as a reference to STM, which was not necessary. Luthor needed to be more sinister, like what he was in the scene where he stabs Superman. I don't picture Gene Hackman's Luthor doing that.



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I think it's time for that aspect of Superman on film to be retired. I want villains who are a true threat to him and everything he holds dear. No weird headed tattooed henchmen who play the piano with a smirk, no Parker Poseys, no Ned Beatys, but people who have the real potential to make him suffer both physically and emotionally.
Ah ok. Brutus.

Well I have to defend Brutus because he was a threat to Lois. Big one. It didn't look like he was just a funny boy and he certainly was not portrayed as a "funny" guy who keeps screwing things up.

The scene where he goes to the piano with Jason was... quite creepy. It certainly didn't look like he was going to 'help' the kid precisely, if you know what I mean. He goes there, Lois gets nervous and then, all of a sudden, he starts playing that little song with him. Say what you want about villiains but that was a brilliant scene that played with creepiness and innocence. I wish half the superhero movies had that sense of surprise and non-cliche.


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Old 11-19-2011, 09:38 AM   #132
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But i like otis a lot. You know the otisville.

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Old 11-19-2011, 09:41 AM   #133
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having said that do you think a mean main villain with funny henchmen still work?
Mercy is the only henchman I'd want to see

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Old 11-19-2011, 09:44 AM   #134
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Well, movies like BB and SM1 - specially this last one - followed closely the STM structure. I mean, Spiderman rescuing MJ at that parade and taking her out for a 'flight' after which she feels attracted to him...

I don't think it's the structure what was made for a previous generation, but certain aspects of it (humourous villiain with lousy henchmen).
-Krypton - Krypton
-Farm - Farm
-Metropolis - Metropolis
-Lex and goons - Lex and goons
-Lois at work - Lois at work
-Copter rescue meet Superman - Plane rescue re-meet Superman
-Superman various low key feats around city - Superman various feats()
-Fly over city interview - Fly over city interview(same music)
-Lex plots for land - Lex plots for land
-Lois and Clark awkward - Lois and Clark awkward et james marsden
-etc
-Lex discovers Kryptonite - Lex finds Kryptonite
-Lex sets off land plan while sitting pretty - Lex sets of land plan whilst sitting pretty
-Superman shows up and is put down by Kryptonite(sigh) - The same thing
-Superman dunked in water - same
-Lex's female henchman has a change of heart - SAME? (really Singer..)
-Some interesting but lame variations here
-Superman flies off into the clouds and the camera.

We're left with a movie that impresses an audience 30 years ago but leaves a modern(and evolved) audience very much indifferent.

Granted there are several changes I shrewdly glazed over, the point should still be clear. Yes superhero movies tend to have similar structure, especially the origin ones, but what Returns did was exceptionally uninspired and ill conceived. It wouldn't have even as bad or rather they may have actually pulled if off if they had just added some more tangible action/conflict and perhaps cast a real Lois. I think they may have even worked if Reeve was cast as Superman in his prime, but Routh was given no chance to embody anything but a few nods and looks. All that topped off with what was more or less a re-shooting of a dated film and it's no wonder it didn't go over well. Also, my personal gripes being that whole Superman leaving with little justification(even after promising he wouldn't to the president) and of course the creative dead end that was and would be his love child.

Outside of that the films may as well have titled their dvd chapters the same

Marvel at least switches up the order of their beats
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:



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Old 11-19-2011, 10:21 AM   #135
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Default Re: lessons to learn from previous movies

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The scene where he goes to the piano with Jason was... quite creepy. It certainly didn't look like he was going to 'help' the kid precisely, if you know what I mean. He goes there, Lois gets nervous and then, all of a sudden, he starts playing that little song with him. Say what you want about villiains but that was a brilliant scene that played with creepiness and innocence. I wish half the superhero movies had that sense of surprise and non-cliche.
I couldn't possibly disagree more. I've always found that scene laughable in how utterly it fails in being threatening. It's just so silly and unintentionally goofy.

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Old 11-19-2011, 07:41 PM   #136
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-Krypton - Krypton
-Farm - Farm
-Metropolis - Metropolis
-Lex and goons - Lex and goons
-Lois at work - Lois at work
-Copter rescue meet Superman - Plane rescue re-meet Superman
-Superman various low key feats around city - Superman various feats()
-Fly over city interview - Fly over city interview(same music)
-Lex plots for land - Lex plots for land
-Lois and Clark awkward - Lois and Clark awkward et james marsden
-etc
-Lex discovers Kryptonite - Lex finds Kryptonite
-Lex sets off land plan while sitting pretty - Lex sets of land plan whilst sitting pretty
-Superman shows up and is put down by Kryptonite(sigh) - The same thing
-Superman dunked in water - same
-Lex's female henchman has a change of heart - SAME? (really Singer..)
-Some interesting but lame variations here
-Superman flies off into the clouds and the camera.

We're left with a movie that impresses an audience 30 years ago but leaves a modern(and evolved) audience very much indifferent.
Since you decided to ignore my point, I'll give the same answer again: I don't think it's the structure what was made for a previous generation, but certain aspects of it.

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Old 11-20-2011, 12:59 AM   #137
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Since you decided to ignore my point, I'll give the same answer again: I don't think it's the structure what was made for a previous generation, but certain aspects of it.
My post was actually addressing your "point." Yes it took silly(by our standards) aspects from a previous film but more over Returns took an insane amount of specific "beats" from STM. I don't care how visual and modern a new director is, today's audience wouldn't need to see a film they saw back in the day when superhero films didn't exist and a simple flight effect was enough to impress it's audience. This would effect the "structure" for their big money moments for they would revolve around things modern audiences really couldn't care any less about.

The new snow white movie seems to have updated it's "structure" for an evolved audience and mostly likely won't be a beat for beat remake of a 90 year old film. They're not just changing aspects like lame characters, they're making a new film for the new world.

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Old 11-20-2011, 01:25 AM   #138
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My post was actually addressing your "point." Yes it took silly(by our standards) aspects from a previous film but more over Returns took an insane amount of specific "beats" from STM. I don't care how visual and modern a new director is, today's audience would didn't need to see a film they saw back in the day when superhero films didn't exist and a simply flight effect was enough to impress it's audience. This would effect the "structure" for their big money moments revolved around things modern audiences really couldn't care any less about.

The new snow white movie seems to have updated it's "structure" for an evolved audience and mostly likely won't be a beat for beat remake of a 90 year old film. They're not just changing aspects like lame characters, they're making a new film for the new world.
Ok, now I get it. My bad man.

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Old 11-20-2011, 02:45 AM   #139
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We definitely need villains who pose a threat.

In Superman Returns, Lex was quite nasty, but then they chucked in all the goofy stuff too. I liked the bit when on "new Krypton" Lex had his henchmen kick the cr@p out of Supes and then stabbed him. That was the most emotional part of the film for me.

Leave the light hearted moments for the Lois / Clark / Perry / Jimmy interactions and maybe the odd Superman saving the general public moment.

When it comes to the villains, serious all the way. Make it an actual threat that is believable.

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Old 11-20-2011, 05:26 AM   #140
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We definitely need villains who pose a threat.

In Superman Returns, Lex was quite nasty, but then they chucked in all the goofy stuff too. I liked the bit when on "new Krypton" Lex had his henchmen kick the cr@p out of Supes and then stabbed him. That was the most emotional part of the film for me.

Leave the light hearted moments for the Lois / Clark / Perry / Jimmy interactions and maybe the odd Superman saving the general public moment.

When it comes to the villains, serious all the way. Make it an actual threat that is believable.
Am i the only me who hate that scene? It sorta like an direct insult to superman.
Oh ya. He is super n have superpowers. But any ordinary man can kick his ass easily. That's just stupid. N why mire n more people not like him.

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Old 11-20-2011, 05:52 AM   #141
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We definitely need villains who pose a threat.

In Superman Returns, Lex was quite nasty, but then they chucked in all the goofy stuff too. I liked the bit when on "new Krypton" Lex had his henchmen kick the cr@p out of Supes and then stabbed him. That was the most emotional part of the film for me.

Leave the light hearted moments for the Lois / Clark / Perry / Jimmy interactions and maybe the odd Superman saving the general public moment.

When it comes to the villains, serious all the way. Make it an actual threat that is believable.
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Am i the only me who hate that scene? It sorta like an direct insult to superman.
Oh ya. He is super n have superpowers. But any ordinary man can kick his ass easily. That's just stupid. N why mire n more people not like him.
I loved it at the time...

On reflection, I think it could have been handled a lot better.

I mean I absolutely love it when Lex is an ACTUAL threat and does beat Superman. But it was really no different from STM, was it?

Lex lures Superman to him because of his land plan, Superman is surprised to be weakened by kryptonite, and ends up falling into water and having to be rescued by a woman.

I like that he stabbed him. I loved the line 'Now fly', and the amount of hate that Spacey put into it.

But I hate the little muffled 'I'm still Superman' (which I only noticed on repeat viewing), and the way Brandon played it like he was being slapped around like a wet fish.

That scene would have worked a hundred times better if Superman had actually fought back a bit IMO.

But that always depends on how you handle the effects of Kryptonite... which they basically couldn't make up their mind on in the movie. One min he's too weak to fight a bunch of goons off, the next he's lifting the entire land they were beating him on above his head

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Old 11-20-2011, 08:45 AM   #142
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I loved it at the time...

On reflection, I think it could have been handled a lot better.

I mean I absolutely love it when Lex is an ACTUAL threat and does beat Superman. But it was really no different from STM, was it?

Lex lures Superman to him because of his land plan, Superman is surprised to be weakened by kryptonite, and ends up falling into water and having to be rescued by a woman.

I like that he stabbed him. I loved the line 'Now fly', and the amount of hate that Spacey put into it.

But I hate the little muffled 'I'm still Superman' (which I only noticed on repeat viewing), and the way Brandon played it like he was being slapped around like a wet fish.

That scene would have worked a hundred times better if Superman had actually fought back a bit IMO.

But that always depends on how you handle the effects of Kryptonite... which they basically couldn't make up their mind on in the movie. One min he's too weak to fight a bunch of goons off, the next he's lifting the entire land they were beating him on above his head
That's an interesting observation. Even a little bit of fighting back would have been a big improvement. I think Singer however was really reaching for the Christ parable. Just one bad decision after another for that guy.

His big climax and it involves several men kicking around a guy who's physically less than even that at the time. The Kryptonite was also strangely inconsistent for sure. But then again Superman flew up up past the overcast and was granted more strength than he's ever gotten in order to perform a task that would have been an ordeal for him weather or not the "kryptonite" was involved at all. The overcast...

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Old 11-20-2011, 09:00 AM   #143
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Am i the only me who hate that scene? It sorta like an direct insult to superman.
Oh ya. He is super n have superpowers. But any ordinary man can kick his ass easily. That's just stupid. N why mire n more people not like him.
I see you forgot to mention he was exposed to Kryptonite, yes? So, it's very stupid he's exposed to the mineral that can de-power him and he got... de-powered.

But the world felt that Superman was insulted when that trucker beat himin Superman II when he was de-powered too. That was stupid.








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But I hate the little muffled 'I'm still Superman' (which I only noticed on repeat viewing), and the way Brandon played it like he was being slapped around like a wet fish.
Interestingly enough the Spanish dubbing for that line was wrong. Apparently they thought it was Lex who spoke and somewhat a different utterance. Instead of "I'm still Supermaaaan," Spanish-dubbed Lex said "I killed Supermaaaan."

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That scene would have worked a hundred times better if Superman had actually fought back a bit IMO.

But that always depends on how you handle the effects of Kryptonite... which they basically couldn't make up their mind on in the movie. One min he's too weak to fight a bunch of goons off, the next he's lifting the entire land they were beating him on above his head
Yes well. If you see the movie, you can see that the continent is not all made of Kryptonite but its core. That's why Superman lands on NK, takes some time to find Lex, talks to him and it's only then when he starts feeling the effects. Literally quite some time later.

Consistently, after "re-charging," Superman had time enough to lift NK before the effects of Kryptonite were felt. And, again, consistently, I didn't see Superman being able to fight a fish after that. That's what Kryptonite does to him you see.


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Old 11-22-2011, 08:37 AM   #144
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N he knows lex have gstolen his crystsl n the K effect on him. Yet he totally cant feel the effect of K when he lands on the new krypton ... Stylishly then got whacked. How stupid. Again another no brain scene of superman. No matter how u tell, the script writer just doesnt see superman have a brain.

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Old 12-12-2011, 02:01 AM   #145
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1. Treat Superman as the main character instead of giving the emphasis more on his villains or supporting cast.

2. Allow Superman's character to have a captivating character arc in the film that's executed well on screen.

3. No damn sepia color filters that drains away the colors from the film

4. Don't rely on CGI entirely for the flying scenes

5. No more land scheming ideas

6. Have the villains presented come off as a menacing and credible threat that would make most people praise Superman for having defeated them in the end

7. No more over emphasis on Destinies or Christ like parallels concerning Superman's character

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Old 12-12-2011, 03:29 AM   #146
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having said that do you think a mean main villain with funny henchmen still work?
To be honest, yeah, I think it can work. It's not the general audience that has a problem with these things, it's the hardcore fans. They want their favorite hero to be depicted in a completely serious light and be respected, casual viewers couldn't care less as long as it's entertaining. People still like action adventures with comedy elements, just look at the Pirates movies.

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Old 12-12-2011, 06:31 AM   #147
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Interestingly enough the Spanish dubbing for that line was wrong. Apparently they thought it was Lex who spoke and somewhat a different utterance. Instead of "I'm still Supermaaaan," Spanish-dubbed Lex said "I killed Supermaaaan."
I have to watch that.

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Yes well. If you see the movie, you can see that the continent is not all made of Kryptonite but its core. That's why Superman lands on NK, takes some time to find Lex, talks to him and it's only then when he starts feeling the effects. Literally quite some time later.
Oh I understand that, and to a certain degree I'm am fine with excepting that he burrowed under the earth and used a layer of land to cover himself when first picking it up.

It's when the big kryptonite crystals start poking out next to his face and he is STILL managing to carry all that weight... That's when it becomes unbelievable to me.

When exposed that close up to Kryptonite, he should not have the strength to carry on holding up a car, let alone a continent.

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Consistently, after "re-charging," Superman had time enough to lift NK before the effects of Kryptonite were felt. And, again, consistently, I didn't see Superman being able to fight a fish after that. That's what Kryptonite does to him you see.
I have never seen any interpretation before in which Superman can fly up to the sun and get a temporary kryptonite immunity.

It might have been consistent within the context of the film (if a bit unbelievable), but it's not consistent with Superman's 'lore'.

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Old 12-12-2011, 07:42 AM   #148
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I have to watch that.
More like listening. But yeah, check if your dvd has the Spanish dubbed version. I certainly liked that better.

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Oh I understand that, and to a certain degree I'm am fine with excepting that he burrowed under the earth and used a layer of land to cover himself when first picking it up.

It's when the big kryptonite crystals start poking out next to his face and he is STILL managing to carry all that weight... That's when it becomes unbelievable to me.

When exposed that close up to Kryptonite, he should not have the strength to carry on holding up a car, let alone a continent.
I am no expert but if the continent was outside Earth's atmosphere, there was a lot of inertia going on, so Superman didn't have to be using his own strenght to keep the continent moving.

Now, of course it's a stretch. It always is. Have you noticed the hero always jumps out of the window just one or two seconds before the bomb explodes? Does that bother you every time?

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Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide View Post
I have never seen any interpretation before in which Superman can fly up to the sun and get a temporary kryptonite immunity.

It might have been consistent within the context of the film (if a bit unbelievable), but it's not consistent with Superman's 'lore'.
Well, from what I know never before Krypton was crystal-like, never before he had a cellophane S, etc. This is Donner franchise continuation, and we had a share of new things happening in the previous movies too. But if it's coherent with his own world, that should be enough.

Now, if in Superman's lore, his cells absorb and keep sunlight as a way to charge and re-charge his energy, then how it is not consistent?

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