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Old 03-22-2011, 07:48 PM   #101
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"Simultaneously it isn't a vapid video game with no redeeming values beyond the aesthetics. In which case I think this is past Snyder's realm of talents."

That's hardly a glowing review.
A bit blunt, I admit. But is it entirely wrong? Snyder has largely been about bringing to life material that is already cut out for him. His strengths lie in painting beautiful imagery, which isn't a knock against him. It still has its merits, in the same way that a silent film has emotional resonance without the use of sound. It's just he's displayed little talent beyond that element. Particularly in the case of what is laid forth on the page. I've little evidence Zack has done more than what's presently there. Considering his filmography of remakes and adaptations, I don't think I'm overstepping the bounds of critique.

I could just as well adjust those views when I go see 'Sucker Punch' this Friday, but I stand by these words for the moment.

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I won't overstate its value, either. It's not The Departed by any means. However it is slightly more than a bunch of guys throwing down. There is a story and it is based somewhat on a historical series of events.

I will however admit that a big part of the success of the film is based on - as I said - a bunch of guys throwing down. My point is that it wasn't entirely what it was.
This hasn't invalidated what I said. A simple film can have some semblance of a story as well as undertones which aren't immediately evident. That doesn't elevate it to a complex film, by any means. Do you have particular examples that show how 300 isn't simplistic at its core?

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Old 03-22-2011, 07:49 PM   #102
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Do you have particular examples that show how 300 isn't simplistic at its core?
Nope.

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Old 03-22-2011, 07:50 PM   #103
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300 is a parody of the glorification of war, told from the point of view of a particularly war like race. It's massive historical inaccuracies (like mutant-men with saws for hands, Xerxes being nine feet tall) are a reference to how stories change through being told. Remember, it's being recounted by a character in the movie.
"300" was a fictional retelling of a historical event (the battle of Thermopolae). The mere fact that it was fictional explains its inaccuracies. "Spartans" was a parody (a comedic spoof). "300" was no joke.

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Old 03-22-2011, 07:50 PM   #104
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Nope.
Then you can understand why I'm confused as to your original disagreement of my statement.

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Old 03-22-2011, 07:52 PM   #105
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A bit blunt, I admit. But is it entirely wrong? Snyder has largely been about bringing to life material that is already cut out for him. His strengths lie in painting beautiful imagery, which isn't a knock against him. It still has its merits, in the same way that a silent film has emotional resonance without the use of sound. It's just he's displayed little talent beyond that element. Particularly in the case of what is laid forth on the page. I've little evidence Zack has done more than what's presently there. Considering his filmography of remakes and adaptations, I don't think I'm overstepping the bounds of critique.
Watchmen had a lot of meaning in there that wasn't in the book. He also altered the nuclear allegory into something much neater than the book. It is the fact that those changes didn't stick out like a sore thumb that proved to me he was more than just a painter of pretty pictures.

You should read the Making Of Watchmen, it's quite enlightening.

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Old 03-22-2011, 07:53 PM   #106
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Then you can understand why I'm confused as to your original disagreement of my statement.
I agreed with you, actually. I admitted that 90% of the success of the film was based on your assessment. But it wasn't start to finish guys fighting which appeared to be the only thing you gave it credit for. I was merely saying that there was that other 10% in there, making it slightly less cut-and-dry than you made it out to be.

No more. No less. As I said, it's certainly no The Departed, however it also wasn't Dude Where's My Car?

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Old 03-22-2011, 07:53 PM   #107
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"300" was a fictional retelling of a historical event (the battle of Thermopolae). The mere fact that it was fictional explains its inaccuracies. "Spartans" was a parody (a comedic spoof). "300" was no joke.
I meant parody in the satirical sense. Why must you constantly find a way to agree and disagree with me at the same time?

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Old 03-22-2011, 08:05 PM   #108
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Watchmen had a lot of meaning in there that wasn't in the book. He also altered the nuclear allegory into something much neater than the book. It is the fact that those changes didn't stick out like a sore thumb that proved to me he was more than just a painter of pretty pictures.

You should read the Making Of Watchmen, it's quite enlightening.
I've collected practically everything related to the film, so I'm very familiar with that long production. However in the case of the altered nuclear ending, it was present in the script long before Zack had come along. Correct me if I'm wrong on that as my recollection of the several drafts have blended together. In any case, I'm in the minority that prefers it to the original. So whether he originated the idea or not, I appreciate him taking the chance to deviate from the book at such a controversial point.

Still, my previous analogy on Beethoven still stands. The complexity in Moore's work just didn't seem as authentic being read in book form, as it was being seen as a film. This includes the Director's Cut, which I love btw. The best I can describe it is a really good imitation/reproduction. Though paling in comparison to its superior original. Snyder is clearly more of a visceral director than he is cerebral, but that's ok. As evidenced with Watchmen's opening scene, I think he does have some great concepts and approaches to the material that should be applauded. But it's not specifically something he's regularly efficient in, imo.

Which is why in an ideal scenario, the script should be fantastic on its own right. Independent of his involvement. Purely because Snyder can hold up his end with the camera. His method is sufficient enough that a good concept will translate smoothly from page to film. It's when he's being held back by something that isn't suited to his strengths, are where I think the flaws are easily observed.

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Old 03-22-2011, 08:15 PM   #109
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Zod is just a rumour isn't it?
I should have mentioned that I was only complaining about a rumor in that instance.

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Old 03-22-2011, 08:30 PM   #110
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I meant parody in the satirical sense. Why must you constantly find a way to agree and disagree with me at the same time?
It wasn't a satire either.

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Old 03-22-2011, 08:47 PM   #111
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It wasn't a satire either.
According to my interpretation, it is.

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Old 03-22-2011, 09:15 PM   #112
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When there is inevitably another 'crisis on infinite earths' type event where DC wipes the slate clean, I really hope they get rid of two things: the JSA golden age WW2 old ass superhero guys, and the legion of superheroes.

One, because like kurosawa said, it cheapens how and what batman and superman finally become who they are. (There are already superheroes flying around, and yet the writers act like bruce and clark just come up with this superhero idea all by themselves?)

Second, we're getting farther and farther away from WWII. It's getting very strange to see middle aged men that were supposedly in WWII walking around in modern times. It's only going to get stranger. Plus, they suck as characters. Seriously. I love most DC characters, but the JSA has just always been bad.

As far the legion, it's pretty disappointing knowing the 'future' of the DC universe, and seeing how lame it is. Way to ruin the unknown.
Well, I disagree with you completely about both the JSA and the LSH. Almost to a character, I like the JSA original versions over the Silver Age replacements, and I think the LSH was by far the best team book of the 60's next to Fantastic Four. But I do think that Superman needs to be the first hero regardless. Stuff like the JSA and the LSH just shows why getting rid of the simple but elegant Multiverse system was a horrid mistake. With the Multiverse, you have the JSA on Earth-Two but preserve Superman (who named the team) as the first superhero, and you also have the LSH as just one of several possible futures with other alternatives like Earth-86 (Kamandi's Earth), etc. And they could have always updated and started new with a new Superman/Superboy on a new Earth.

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Old 03-22-2011, 09:39 PM   #113
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My fear worries relate to the fact that this is a movie only being made because WB are trying to keep the rights and that Snyder got lucky with Dawn of the Dead and Watchmen as far as quality is concerned. I also don't like Zod being used as I thought that we'd get away from just out and out copying Donner's films again.

Man of Steel may not be a sequel or related to SR in any real way but it is a follow up of sorts because it is coming out so soon after SR so we have two Superman series that have Luthor stealing land in the first movie and Zod and crew being the villains in the second...that doesn't sound very original to me. I just hate that image. Why couldn't Brainiac or someone else be the villain?
Glad to see I'm not the only one who feels this way. I really, REALLY hope these Zod rumors are completely false. I don't understand where this notion comes from that "all of Superman's villains suck except Luthor in Zod." It's total bullsh**. Most of Superman's villains could work very well on film with modern special effects and a good script. I don't know why some people seem to think they should never be used.

People say Brainiac sucks because his name is stupid. Yeah. So names like Sinestro and Doctor Octopus are cool? It's ridiculous.

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Old 03-22-2011, 10:58 PM   #114
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Cameron could probably turn Superman into a 2 billion dollar box office. Bay would insure that Superman was at least a trilogy with probably the best fights with supervillains. He would also though have the worse plot and least tight film of the three. Snyder would give us the most interesting take but the least box office out of the 3.
You realize Snyder has (prior to the upcoming Sucker Punch) never released a live action movie that wasn't rated R, right?

Kinda hard to compare the box office for R-rated flicks like Watchmen or 300 (which was a massive hit) to that of Transformers or Avatar. Kids couldn't see Watchmen or 300.

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Old 03-22-2011, 11:07 PM   #115
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Please Lord, don't let Zod be in this. What is the deal, is he really THAT popular?

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Old 03-22-2011, 11:21 PM   #116
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Please Lord, don't let Zod be in this. What is the deal, is he really THAT popular?
Yeah... cuz like... people posted pictures like this all over da internets. Therefore he just HAZ TO BE IN DA MOVIE!!! In the planet of Earth Zod is the most famouse person in the world! Everybuddy knows who he is, even the people who don't know who he is.




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Old 03-23-2011, 04:46 AM   #117
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Yeah... cuz like... people posted pictures like this all over da internets. Therefore he just HAZ TO BE IN DA MOVIE!!! In the planet of Earth Zod is the most famouse person in the world! Everybuddy knows who he is, even the people who don't know who he is.




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Old 03-23-2011, 05:05 AM   #118
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For now, Im worried about the costume and the plot.

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Old 03-23-2011, 05:09 AM   #119
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Well, I disagree with you completely about both the JSA and the LSH. Almost to a character, I like the JSA original versions over the Silver Age replacements, and I think the LSH was by far the best team book of the 60's next to Fantastic Four. But I do think that Superman needs to be the first hero regardless. Stuff like the JSA and the LSH just shows why getting rid of the simple but elegant Multiverse system was a horrid mistake. With the Multiverse, you have the JSA on Earth-Two but preserve Superman (who named the team) as the first superhero, and you also have the LSH as just one of several possible futures with other alternatives like Earth-86 (Kamandi's Earth), etc. And they could have always updated and started new with a new Superman/Superboy on a new Earth.
Sorry but to me the idea of multiple Earths is just stupid and a convoluted mess. The will never do that in a Superman movie, anyway.

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Old 03-23-2011, 05:42 AM   #120
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Please Lord, don't let Zod be in this. What is the deal, is he really THAT popular?
I don't think snyder/nolan/goyer chose the villains based on who they think is popular. I believe they've chosen based on who fits in best with the story, like nolan/goyer did with batman begins. If they choose based on popularity, then I don't think we would've gotten ra's and scarecrow for a first movie, especially at such a critical time--attempting to revive batman. I also don't think they would've gone with bane in TDKR over the riddler.

I admit that the idea of zod isn't terribly exciting, but I'm sure when all is said and done, it's going to be different enough that it will still be fascinating, and going by past collaborations, there's going to be a hell of a lot more going on than just a 'main villain.'

Assuming the zod rumors are true.

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Old 03-23-2011, 05:50 AM   #121
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I think Spiderman 3 is a good example of what a film would look like if the villain picked for it is based mainly on popularity instead of how that particular villain will add to the protagonist's story and development.

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Old 03-23-2011, 05:53 AM   #122
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Sorry but to me the idea of multiple Earths is just stupid and a convoluted mess. The will never do that in a Superman movie, anyway.
I would never expect them to do a multiverse in the movies. That's something only marvel would be foolhardy enough to attempt. It works fine in the comics though.

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Old 03-23-2011, 07:27 AM   #123
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You realize Snyder has (prior to the upcoming Sucker Punch) never released a live action movie that wasn't rated R, right?

Kinda hard to compare the box office for R-rated flicks like Watchmen or 300 (which was a massive hit) to that of Transformers or Avatar. Kids couldn't see Watchmen or 300.
Kids were able to see Legend of the Guardians no? Some of you guys are getting me wrong. I am not saying Snyder is a bad director or that his films have less merit. He is just an unproven commercial director. Snyder is closer to Timur Bekmambetov or Tarsem Singh. He will make the film that he wants to make and concern himself less with what is commercially appealing. It's why I will always be interested in what he does but it doesn't mean his films will be massive hits. And to whoever said that WB will make sure that Superman is a trilogy regardless of the box office, that is just dumb. That didn't work for SR and it won't work for this film. If you want sequels you'd better hope for a strong box office.

Sometimes a director will set out to make the best film possible without regard for box office appeal. Moon, The Hurt Locker, Black Swan, are a few that come to mind. I have a feeling Snyder is doing the same with this film. He is aiming for a realistic Superrman movie that is heavy on character and that people can relate to. The problem is that a film where people relate to the protagonist is not necessarily going to put people in seats. There are tons of those around. That won't bring people in that are outside the fanbase. That is not the driving force for this kind of film. It needs to be fun. People that aren't Superman fans don't want a serious Superman film. Yes I can imagine that his film will have action, story and characterization. But will it be fun?


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Old 03-23-2011, 07:39 AM   #124
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Well, imo, all of Snyder movies are DAMN fun and awesome so...its just UR opinion, i guess. I still think Watchmen and 300 are one of the best comic book adaptations of all time and Dawn of the Dead is probably my favorite zombie movie of all time. So, im not worried about him, really. And all his interviews reinforce that.

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Old 03-23-2011, 01:18 PM   #125
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Kids were able to see Legend of the Guardians no? Some of you guys are getting me wrong. I am not saying Snyder is a bad director or that his films have less merit. He is just an unproven commercial director. Snyder is closer to Timur Bekmambetov or Tarsem Singh. He will make the film that he wants to make and concern himself less with what is commercially appealing. It's why I will always be interested in what he does but it doesn't mean his films will be massive hits. And to whoever said that WB will make sure that Superman is a trilogy regardless of the box office, that is just dumb. That didn't work for SR and it won't work for this film. If you want sequels you'd better hope for a strong box office.

Sometimes a director will set out to make the best film possible without regard for box office appeal. Moon, The Hurt Locker, Black Swan, are a few that come to mind. I have a feeling Snyder is doing the same with this film. He is aiming for a realistic Superrman movie that is heavy on character and that people can relate to. The problem is that a film where people relate to the protagonist is not necessarily going to put people in seats. There are tons of those around. That won't bring people in that are outside the fanbase. That is not the driving force for this kind of film. It needs to be fun. People that aren't Superman fans don't want a serious Superman film. Yes I can imagine that his film will have action, story and characterization. But will it be fun?
I know what you're saying, I'm saying you have no real basis for comparrison.

That cartoon owl movie has no bearing on anything. Name one animated movie where the director played a role in whether it was successful? Nobody even knew he directed that.

My point is that Dawn of the Dead, 300, and Watchmen are all R-rated flicks, so comparing him negatively to Michael Bay is stupid. I certainly can't guarantee he'll ever have Bay-like success, but Bay has pretty much exclusively made PG-13 movies (with the notabale exceptions of the Bad Boys films, and the Rock, three of his four lowest grossing movies).

The reality is, Snyder's sample size is too small to evaluate in any capacity. I'm not some Snyder homer, I think his movies are okay. But this idea that he's adverse to commercial success because his style is unappealing has no merit.

If Sucker Punch bombs, it will support your argument.

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