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Old 07-12-2011, 10:26 AM   #201
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

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The heirs would have a Superman who could not fly, had no Lex or Jimmy, no Kryptonite, no Supergirl, FOS, Krypto, Legion of Super-Heroes, no Superboy, Myxy, Parasite, Metallo, etc.
Apart from flight and maybe Lex, the other elements are liabilities - not assets. Score for S&S!

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Old 07-12-2011, 01:02 PM   #202
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

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They started moving on without Superman 25 years ago. It's why they made him their #2 behind Batman and if they hadn't tried to rip off Iron Man with Green Lantern, he'd be #3 to GL.

Let me say this about that.

I agree DC has been moving past Superman for a while. Not 25 years IMO but since they realized they would lose the rights.

GL seems to be the character DC wants to replace Superman with - in terms of becoming the very profitable franchise Superman once was.

The reboot is all about this. Superman drops to 2 books/month while Batman and more specically GL get 5/6 books/month. That is another indication DC is moving on w/o Superman.

The GL film disappointment will force DC to modify it's plans but I still think focus will shift from Superman as one of the core characters to others.

It's more than just the rights issue IMO.

The boy scout Superman is no longer popular or relevant to many in the target audience. DC knows this which is why they haven't invested into the character as they have with Batman and GL.

The legal issue provided the perfect "cover" for DC to do a radical remake of Superman IMO. Superman fans may not be happy with this but DC can say we had no choice.

So, no matter how the rights issues plays out, IMO DC will not be going back to the classic Superman. I expect the changes coming this fall are just the beginning.

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Old 07-12-2011, 01:35 PM   #203
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

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If making a post-MOS movie was the only goal, I think S&S have the most viable, ready-to-go property. As I said, I think it would be possible to make a period film loosely based on Action #1. And details like “leaping 1/8th of a mile” (instead of flying) could be accommodated (or disguised) as “historically” authentic. Sell it on the basis of quaint nostalgia or “old fashioned values.”

That said… such a movie (or, at best, a trilogy) would likely be a one-shot deal (analogous to the contractual loophole that allowed Never Say Never Again to get made). I seriously doubt that S&S could build a “Superman empire” that could rival what DC/WB have done over 70 years. As you say, they’re just guys with a copyright – not filmmakers, TV producers, writers or publishers. Beyond a "blast from the past" type one-off movie, I don't think a non-flying Superman has much value.
Yeah, as I alluded...I can't see then even getting any kind of film made by themselves. And if Toberoff owns half of that...he's ont exactly the darling of the industry right now, that every major studio is dying to finance, y'know?

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 07-12-2011, 01:50 PM   #204
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

And the retro thing might not be that viable as "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow" taught us.

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Old 07-12-2011, 01:54 PM   #205
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

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Apart from flight and maybe Lex, the other elements are liabilities - not assets. Score for S&S!
All of those elements are huge assets, the Legion and Supergirl in particular.

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Old 07-13-2011, 10:24 AM   #206
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

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All of those elements are huge assets, the Legion and Supergirl in particular.
I have no reason to doubt that the Legion and Supergirl are valuable assets for DC. But I'm not convinced that they're intrinsically vital to telling good Superman stories.

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Old 07-13-2011, 10:39 AM   #207
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

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And the retro thing might not be that viable as "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow" taught us.
Plus, people would be claiming that they're copying Captain America.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 07-13-2011, 10:51 AM   #208
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

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I have no reason to doubt that the Legion and Supergirl are valuable assets for DC. But I'm not convinced that they're intrinsically vital to telling good Superman stories.
Well...put it this way, if the heirs were to somehow try to start a Superman series/etc. with just their 'elements', it would probably have it's greatest appeal to a very select hardcore fanbase lingering on from before the 'big split'. the kinds that would be invested enough to follow a story that. say, had no flying or very little action, and was more of an introspective character piece. Like, say, Superman Returns, but with no Luthor or flying or much movement. It'd probably be like an underground comic version of Superman, and you have to wonder if they could really make anything off of it compared to how much effort/$$ would be spend just producing it....whereas WB/DC with their production/development/distribution infrastructure....

I just can't see the heirs/Toberoff doing anything with only their 'half' except independently. No-one's going to want to do business with Toberoff after this. Sure, WB may only have a blue suit and a character that flies...but they have the wherewithal to package and market it as something big...and the rest of the Justice League to fill out the package, too. SO WB/DC may only have gotten the heartless body...but that body can still go out there and make at least some money, whereas the heirs will have the heart just sitting in an jar.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 07-13-2011, 11:25 AM   #209
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

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Well...put it this way, if the heirs were to somehow try to start a Superman series/etc. with just their 'elements', it would probably have it's greatest appeal to a very select hardcore fanbase lingering on from before the 'big split'. the kinds that would be invested enough to follow a story that. say, had no flying or very little action, and was more of an introspective character piece.

...It'd probably be like an underground comic version of Superman, and you have to wonder if they could really make anything off of it compared to how much effort/$$ would be spend just producing it....whereas WB/DC with their production/development/distribution infrastructure....

I just can't see the heirs/Toberoff doing anything with only their 'half' except independently. No-one's going to want to do business with Toberoff after this.
(Like yourself?) I’m not really into comics anymore. My interest is mainly about how Superman is portrayed in movies and/or TV. And my intuition (perhaps wrong) is that Superman is robust enough to carry a story on his own – without visiting “guest star” superheroes and supervillains from other mythologies and franchises. For me, these have a “jump the shark” flavor. Now, maybe it’s a different situation in the world of comics. But if Supes’ best adventures happen when he’s hooked up with Supergirl or Batman or Flash or the Legion, then that’s a dubious (damning with faint praise) compliment. In any case, it’s not really a factor for either a WB or S&S movie. Supes wouldn’t be sharing the stage.

As far as Toberoff goes… my thinking is that if there’s any bad blood between WB and another studio, said studio might be interested in the S&S version of Superman as a kind of “screw you” opportunity.

On the other hand, maybe it’s more likely that there’s some degree of studio solidarity among rivals. And everyone concerned would be more than aware that Toberoff is some kind of Antichrist to the studio system – someone you wouldn’t dream of doing business with.

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Old 07-13-2011, 12:04 PM   #210
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

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(Like yourself?) I’m not really into comics anymore. My interest is mainly about how Superman is portrayed in movies and/or TV. And my intuition (perhaps wrong) is that Superman is robust enough to carry a story on his own – without visiting “guest star” superheroes and supervillains from other mythologies and franchises. For me, these have a “jump the shark” flavor. Now, maybe it’s a different situation in the world of comics. But if Supes’ best adventures happen when he’s hooked up with Supergirl or Batman or Flash or the Legion, then that’s a dubious (damning with faint praise) compliment. In any case, it’s not really a factor for either a WB or S&S movie. Supes wouldn’t be sharing the stage.
That's kinda' what I mean, though....I don't think an ongoing movie series with 'half' a Superman is a vital concern to WB/DC pending a non-settlment era. It may just be in comics or perhaps animation...and they'll stick with Batman and maybe trying to launch/relaunch other characters in 'solo' movies.

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As far as Toberoff goes… my thinking is that if there’s any bad blood between WB and another studio, said studio might be interested in the S&S version of Superman as a kind of “screw you” opportunity.
Like who...Disney/Marvel? They're not exactly thrilled with him after the Kirby issue that he was involved with as well. And even though major studios are in fierce competition with eachother...they want to fight on their own terms...not with the help of some mercenary lawyer using blackmail. His antics during the Superman battle could very well blacklist him in that regard...evidenced by his not being able to raise any backing/support for his 'production company'.

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On the other hand, maybe it’s more likely that there’s some degree of studio solidarity among rivals. And everyone concerned would be more than aware that Toberoff is some kind of Antichrist to the studio system – someone you wouldn’t dream of doing business with.
Yep, a la my comments above. It's like if he was a divorce lawyer who got clients by sleeping with their spouses....looking to one day host a talk show about relationships and fidelity.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 07-13-2011, 01:56 PM   #211
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

No doubt it will be hard for Toberoff and the heirs but, once there is a final court ruling and lawsuits from WB are not a factor they have n choice but to do a movie or two. it's the only way the heirs can make any money from their rights. If the rights are unencumbered I suspect they'll find a studio to back them.

WB can get by fine w/o Superman. DC too. They are scaling him back in their universe and moving other characters to the front.

The re-vamped Man of Steel will either work or not for DC. If it doesn't work DC will drop the Man of Steel but will simply carry Lex and the other villains and delements (Jimmy Olsen) it retains to other titles.

Lex took over Sperman's books for a year recently. I suspect that was a test to see how Lex does in a book of his own if DC eventually drops the Man of Steel/Superman from their universe.

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Old 07-13-2011, 02:01 PM   #212
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

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That's kinda' what I mean, though....I don't think an ongoing movie series with 'half' a Superman is a vital concern to WB/DC pending a non-settlment era. It may just be in comics or perhaps animation...and they'll stick with Batman and maybe trying to launch/relaunch other characters in 'solo' movies.
Given the legal issues I think it's a safe assumption that WB doesn't expect to do a sequel to MOS. Their focus right now has to be rebooting Batman and trying to figure out how to launch their next solo film n the light of the disappointing GL results.

Doing half a Superman film with the rights they retain? Not anytime soon IMO. What I see as the plan now is whether over the next 5 plus years DC can recreate a new character with the elements it keeps and make that character popular enough for WB to maybe try a solo film with "half a Superman". But that solo film is years away IMO. I'd bet before Man of Steel ever gets another film WB will test the character in a JL film - does he resonate with audiences?

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Old 07-13-2011, 02:08 PM   #213
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

I find it kind of strange that you are talking about the outcome of this case and the consequences of it on both sides like you've been in the future with a time machine. It's either that or you're actually Toberoff. This is based off what again? A guy who runs a comic book shop?

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Old 07-13-2011, 02:17 PM   #214
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

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I find it kind of strange that you are talking about the outcome of this case and the consequences of it on both sides like you've been in the future with a time machine. It's either that or you're actually Toberoff. This is based off what again? A guy who runs a comic book shop?
Not at all. Much of the good coverage and predictions of what could happen legally come from Trexler's blog. He has gone over this case from many, many angles and linked to all sorts of related legal cases.

In his latest blog he says that DC will not be able to get away with reinventing the character and that the components are so interconnected that they can't b separated and whatever DC does it will owe royalties and fews to the heirs and Toberoff. Just that those costs will be less than they would be to actually make use of the heirs and Toberoff's rights.

I dunno if that will happen or not but it's something to be aware of as one follows the case.

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Old 07-13-2011, 02:26 PM   #215
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

With all the HP buzz going on, I happened across a little “factoid”: JK Rowling sold the rights to her first two books to WB for “seven figures.” Assume that’s $9,999,999. On the one hand, that’s sorta impressive. On the other, that’s for two books and Rowling was an established phenomenon in publishing. One wonders what kind of deal Toberoff expects to get from a studio for a 70-year-old comic book. Even a share of $10M probably wouldn’t pay for his haircuts and spa membership.

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Old 07-13-2011, 02:35 PM   #216
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

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Given the legal issues I think it's a safe assumption that WB doesn't expect to do a sequel to MOS.

I'd say that's some big time conjecture on your part. I think it's safe to assume we have no idea at all what WB's plans are post MOS. Will they do a sequel? If it is a huge hit I'd say, affirmative. I honestly don't see WB losing the rights, although the heirs may get some financial consideration, but I don't think it'll be hundreds of millions, more likely a few million. And that right there, is some conjecture on my part lol.

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Old 07-13-2011, 03:42 PM   #217
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

Everything's a guess at this point...but some are looking more likely than others when you look at the details.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)

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Old 07-13-2011, 03:43 PM   #218
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

LOL It is a lost cause. For merced we are seeing the last days of a brand. He writes 2345 posts per day to affirm it. The problem, dear merced, is that the fate of superman's brand (and the MOS sequel) isn't decided by the number of your posts.


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Old 07-14-2011, 06:26 PM   #219
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

Trexler's latest on the legal case. Lots of interesting stuff about Morisson's work:

http://www.comicsbeat.com/2011/07/01...rant-morrison/

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Old 07-14-2011, 09:45 PM   #220
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

If toberoff has to recuse himself because of those new documents your theories fail merced.

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Old 07-14-2011, 10:09 PM   #221
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

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I find it kind of strange that you are talking about the outcome of this case and the consequences of it on both sides like you've been in the future with a time machine. It's either that or you're actually Toberoff. This is based off what again? A guy who runs a comic book shop?
Right?
Merced's agenda is clear to everyone after reading just a few posts.
" How sad. Superman will be gone in 2013."
"Poor WB, Man of Steel will not do well."
"Too bad There will be no sequel."
ad nauseam.
Nevertheless, new readers should be reminded of this every so often.

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Old 07-14-2011, 10:14 PM   #222
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

^he also keeps on bringing up how the superman monthly comics are going from 4-2 while GL and Batman are 5 and 6 respectively. I mentioned it in the GL box office thread but I figured I would post it here too

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You keep on bringing this up, but you're not telling the whole story. GL doesn't have Hal Jordan in all five books. Batman also doesn't have bruce wayne in all six. If your going to do that then you should also count supergirl and superboy in supermans count which would be four. Stop changing facts to suit your own needs.

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Old 07-15-2011, 04:57 AM   #223
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

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Trexler's latest on the legal case. Lots of interesting stuff about Morisson's work:

http://www.comicsbeat.com/2011/07/01...rant-morrison/
Only a quote

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However, victory for the Siegel side is by no means guaranteed

Exactly the opposite of what you write every day.
We don' know the future, so we have only to stay calm and wait. We can only discuss about the fact that DC/WB are making a Triple-A Superman movie, which should serve as a relaunch for the franchise and not as a pr move to say "It's Siegel's fault" (at least according to most elementary rules of logic).


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Old 07-28-2011, 05:33 PM   #224
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Default Re: Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

While not related to the Superman case, Toberoff and the Kirbys have just lost their case against Marvel and Disney.

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Old 07-28-2011, 05:33 PM   #225
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While not related to the Superman case, Toberoff and the Kirbys have just lost their case against Marvel and Disney.
The beginning of the end...

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