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Old 06-11-2014, 05:21 PM   #351
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Default Re: Do you wish Katie was in TDK, or do you wish Maggie was in BB?

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Good point.Kinda reminds me of BB where Bats offers Falcone up.Bats does all the work.All he really needs is non corrupt people in the D.A's office to get them put away,but they wouldn't get very far without him offering them up in the first place.
That is not the same at all.

"Even if these guys swear to being thrashed by a giant Bat, we've got Falcone at the scene. Drugs, prints, cargo manifests. This Bat character gave us everything".

The greenest lawyer fresh out of law school could have put Falcone away on that amount of damaging evidence.

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Old 06-11-2014, 05:25 PM   #352
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Default Re: Do you wish Katie was in TDK, or do you wish Maggie was in BB?

I don't think Katie was bad, she just lacked the chemistry with Bale.

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Old 06-11-2014, 05:33 PM   #353
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Default Re: Do you wish Katie was in TDK, or do you wish Maggie was in BB?

I wished Amy Adams or somebody else was in the role for both movies. But nowadays i see it in a slightly different way. Katie and Bale didn't have much chemistry but she wasn't bad in the role. Easily replaceable. But the fact that they're not supposed to move forward in a relationship, and Bruce is just latching onto an idea that is never going to happen anyway, makes it easy to digest that Katie/Bale didn't really click as a couple. They're more like friends who haven't really been around each other for a very long time once they became adults. It sorta works.

Maggie had more chemistry with Eckhart, and that worked too.

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Old 06-11-2014, 05:52 PM   #354
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Default Re: Do you wish Katie was in TDK, or do you wish Maggie was in BB?

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That is not the same at all.

"Even if these guys swear to being thrashed by a giant Bat, we've got Falcone at the scene. Drugs, prints, cargo manifests. This Bat character gave us everything".

The greenest lawyer fresh out of law school could have put Falcone away on that amount of damaging evidence.
But the point is they wouldn't have any evidence without Batman.It's not like just anyone could've done that.To say Dent would be just as effective without Batman is a stretch.

The better analogy is like trying to say who deserves the more credit: The quarterback who throws a TD pass or the WR who caught it.Both needed to do their job to score.Batman did his and so did Dent.I don't see how Dent did or could do as much without Batman.

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Old 06-11-2014, 05:59 PM   #355
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Default Re: Do you wish Katie was in TDK, or do you wish Maggie was in BB?

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It was more of an accomplishment than Batman ever achieved. Batman has never locked up half of the city's criminals. Yes, Batman gave Lau to Dent, but what you're saying is the equivalent to someone giving you an important study book to help you pass your final exams. It's useless in the hands of someone who won't do it right. At the end of the day no matter how much someone helped you study, the onus is on you to pass the exam.

Handing Lau to a lesser man than Dent would be the equivalent to handing a study book to a loser who can't or won't study and will fail. It's useless.
I just find this to be all around faulty logic. It was a team up between the two. Batman isn't a DA, so he can't legally prosecute criminals, so he needed Harvey. Harvey isn't a vigilante, so he couldn't go outside the law to apprehend Lau. Without one or the other, the mob wouldn't have been taken down.

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Old 06-11-2014, 06:03 PM   #356
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Default Re: Do you wish Katie was in TDK, or do you wish Maggie was in BB?

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But the point is they wouldn't have any evidence without Batman.It's not like just anyone could've done that.To say Dent would be just as effective without Batman is a stretch.

The better analogy is like trying to say who deserves the more credit: The quarterback who throws a TD pass or the WR who caught it.Both needed to do their job to score.Batman did his and so did Dent.I don't see how Dent did or could do as much without Batman.
No it's not a stretch because it's apples and oranges. Handing anyone the suspect found at the scene of the crime with all the evidence you could ask for as well, is all the work being done. All anyone has to do is present it to any court of law and they're done.

Inspector Clouseau would be able to handle that because there is no effort required on his part, or in this case the D.A.'s part because Batman did all the work.

Handing someone a suspect, and getting them to spill the dirt about the entire organized crime, and then get them all convicted in court, too, that is the D.A. doing all the hard work. It's like handing someone something and say make it work.

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I just find this to be all around faulty logic. It was a team up between the two. Batman isn't a DA, so he can't legally prosecute criminals, so he needed Harvey. Harvey isn't a vigilante, so he couldn't go outside the law to apprehend Lau. Without one or the other, the mob wouldn't have been taken down.
Batman was nothing more than a glorified delivery boy, Trav. All he did was bring Dent a suspect. Dent actually got the results. Furthermore this was a special case where the suspect in question fled the country. Ordinarily a D.A. can get anyone hauled in under court order or arrest. Whereas a vigilante can never ever prosecute criminals in court under any circumstances.

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Old 06-11-2014, 06:24 PM   #357
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Default Re: Do you wish Katie was in TDK, or do you wish Maggie was in BB?

I totally disagree with you here. I feel like you're totally underplaying Batman's role with his involvement. I get what Harvey did, but it couldn't have happened without Batman's help....and they both knew that going in.

Now, if Batman just picked him up on his own accord, and THEN Harvey concocted this idea to bring down the mob, maybe I could agree with you. But seeing as this was planned out by both of them(and Gordon), I don't see how you can just credit one without the other.

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Old 06-11-2014, 06:33 PM   #358
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Default Re: Do you wish Katie was in TDK, or do you wish Maggie was in BB?

Batman's role was under played. He was basically just the delivery man. That's why all the credit goes to Harvey. Even Bruce himself gives all the credit to Harvey. "Harvey is that hero. He locked up half of the city's criminals and he did without wearing a mask".

It was Dent's idea to get Lau remember;

Dent to Batman: "We need Lau back. But the Chinese won't extradite a national under any circumstances"

This was Harvey's baby. Batman used it to test him to see if he was as good as he thought he was.

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Old 06-11-2014, 06:40 PM   #359
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Default Re: Do you wish Katie was in TDK, or do you wish Maggie was in BB?

Oh, trust me, I know what Batman says in the movie, which is something I find silly. Like I said before we got into this, it's just another excuse for Batman to retire.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. If Harvey did all the work, he would have pulled Lau out of China himself. You can't have one without the other. And that's where we'll have to disagree.

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Old 06-11-2014, 06:46 PM   #360
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Default Re: Do you wish Katie was in TDK, or do you wish Maggie was in BB?

But Batman didn't retire. Not even briefly like other heroes ala Superman 2 or Spider-Man 2. So I don't buy that one.

You can't make a cake without the ingredients either, but the person who makes the cake deserves the credit for making it, not the one who brought the ingredients.

But if you wish to agree to disagree then that's fine, Trav. I'll have CountOrlok on later to spar with anyway

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Old 06-11-2014, 06:51 PM   #361
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Default Re: Do you wish Katie was in TDK, or do you wish Maggie was in BB?

I would actually debate with you more, if I wasn't on my phone. My computer died, and won't have it back for a few more days, so I rather not go back and forth on my phone. Maybe I'll come back here in a few dats when I can actually type on a keyboard?

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Old 06-11-2014, 06:54 PM   #362
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Default Re: Do you wish Katie was in TDK, or do you wish Maggie was in BB?

Sure if you want to. Though I suspect in a few days the discussion will have advanced much further

Though we really should stop because it's got nothing to do with the topic about Rachel.

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Old 06-11-2014, 10:32 PM   #363
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Default Re: Do you wish Katie was in TDK, or do you wish Maggie was in BB?

Yes guys, this is way off topic, if you want to debate the Batman/Harvey topic feel free to make a separate thread.

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Old 06-11-2014, 11:04 PM   #364
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Default Re: Do you wish Katie was in TDK, or do you wish Maggie was in BB?

Not a bad idea.

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Old 06-12-2014, 06:46 AM   #365
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Default Re: Do you wish Katie was in TDK, or do you wish Maggie was in BB?

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Then Chris Nolan succeeded 100% in what he set out to do there. You were never meant to buy Bruce and Rachel were meant for each other. That's why he had Rachel turn around and choose Harvey.
Oh no, I didn't mean that they were meant to be together, I meant that I found it completely unbelievable that Bruce would even want to be with her. Rachel was just annoying and treated Bruce like a creepy ex-boyfriend. And it's not like Bale and Gyllenhaal had much chemistry to begin with.



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More inspiring and more heroic, and it was done by a hero with a face.
I think Travesty has already made some good points about this. I just don't buy this. He's a DA. No matter how good he might be at his job, he'd still have to work within the (corrupted) system. I don't see how a DA could be someone to "inspire" people. The first time he has to make a compromise or a questionable deal the public dislikes, all of that is out the window.

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Old 06-12-2014, 10:14 AM   #366
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Default Re: Do you wish Katie was in TDK, or do you wish Maggie was in BB?

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Oh no, I didn't mean that they were meant to be together, I meant that I found it completely unbelievable that Bruce would even want to be with her. Rachel was just annoying and treated Bruce like a creepy ex-boyfriend. And it's not like Bale and Gyllenhaal had much chemistry to begin with.
Finding someone annoying or having little chemistry is a personal perception. For example I didn't find any chemistry between Bruce and Vicki Vale in Batman '89, or that he should reveal his secret identity to her just because he had sex with her after one date. It's why I wasn't surprised to hear it didn't work between them in Returns.

TDK made Rachel's position understandable. Rachel had moved on. She was not waiting around for a day where maybe Bruce won't be Batman any more. Her heart was invested in Harvey. Bruce was the one who was still clinging to the idea that they may be together one day. You can see her trying to tell him this throughout the movie. "Bruce, you can't can't ask me to wait for that", "Don't make me your one hope for a normal life" etc.

That's not treating someone like a creepy ex boyfriend. That's trying to let a friend down gently. It's not like she was walking out of his life altogether as her letter specified. She still wanted to be his friend. Even giving him encouraging words that if he loses faith in her then please keep his faith in people. That's why I preferred Maggie over Katie. She brought a better maturity to the role, and was better handled as a character. Holmes' Rachel couldn't even bring him a birthday gift without having a dig at him "You enjoy your party, Bruce. Some of us have work to do". I like how Empire summed it up between the two; http://www.empireonline.com/features...aracters/5.asp

As much as I love Begins, it never sat well with me how Rachel declared she loved Bruce out of the clear blue at the end of Begins when there was no romantic hints or affiliations with them prior to that scene.

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I think Travesty has already made some good points about this. I just don't buy this. He's a DA. No matter how good he might be at his job, he'd still have to work within the (corrupted) system. I don't see how a DA could be someone to "inspire" people. The first time he has to make a compromise or a questionable deal the public dislikes, all of that is out the window.
I'm assuming you missed this above;

http://forums.superherohype.com/show...&postcount=363

When an Admin tells you to knock if off, you should listen.

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Old 10-09-2014, 11:50 PM   #367
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Default Re: Do you wish Katie was in TDK, or do you wish Maggie was in BB?

What hurt The Dark Knight for me was switching from Katie Holmes to Maggie Gyllenhaal. Gyllenhaal is usually the better actress, but that role wasn't for her, and it brings down the film for me so yes, I liked Rachel being killed off.

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Old 10-18-2014, 10:56 PM   #368
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Default Re: Do you wish Katie was in TDK, or do you wish Maggie was in BB?

Besides Heath Ledger unfortunately passing away, if there was one other thing I would change in this great trilogy is the casting of Rachel Dawes.

Imagine Emily Blunt in the role. She would have KILLED it. She's got the sexiness, smarts + toughness to sell the Rachel Dawes role.
Credibility as an attorney?
Check
Credibility in the looks department?
Check
Credibility in the toughness department?
Check (see Edge of Tomorrow).

Barring that.......as is, I actually liked both Katie + Maggie for different reasons.
Katie had the sweet charm childhood friend of Bruce down pat, and she passes the looks test. I thought she got far too much hate for her performance, I always like her when I watch Batman Begins. She had the whole Dawson's Creek/teen hangover in terms of public perception, which i thought was unfair.

I liked Maggie too. She did have good rapport with Eckhart.
I do think she was off in her first 2 scenes though.
Too annoyed/angry/short with Harvey in the courtroom.
And she overplays the sass/sexiness in the second scene walking with Harvey ("I'm fine, Rachel).
But after those first two scenes, I think Maggie nails it. She's not given a lot to do. But she nails her death scene which was the most important scene she had.
I think Maggie is sexy but no question she's not on the level of a Katie Holmes or Emily Blunt.......as yes as superficial + misogynistic as it may be....nevertheless, it is a fair to at least partly consider the attractiveness of the woman in a billionaire playboy's life. He's Bruce Wayne. I love Maggie but she wasn't on his level. Again, to me it's a minor, minor issue, if at all, but I do think it should be ok to point out, again despite how superficial it is for me to point out.
Part of it may have been that Nolan shot Maggie in a couple of unflatteringly lit closeups that didn't do her justice.

Either way, the more important question is Katie or Maggie? And I say Katie, purely because for continuity reasons.......it would have been nice to keep her. Cast changes in such a beloved series are annoying, plain and simple. Jarring (like Don Cheadle in Iron Man 2). So I wish they had kept Katie.

But again, I ask fans of the trilogy.....imagine if Nolan had cast Emily Blunt in the role in 2005? Would have been perfect. Problem is she didn't emerge on the scene realistically until age 23 in 2006 with the release of Devil Wears Prada. So realistically, she could've appeared in TDK (which I would've taken over Maggie).

But yeah, Nolan should've stuck with Katie. Definitely one of the few things that bug me about what otherwise is my favorite trilogy since the original Star Wars trilogy (even Rises, flawed and all, which as an aside, I think Rises is the ROTJ of the Nolan trilogy, not on the level of the first two, but still really good + emotionally so satisfying with a beautiful ending).

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