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Old 01-14-2013, 03:31 PM   #1
SuBe
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Default Voluntaryism

Have you heard of Voluntaryism? I have been reading and researching this for quite some time, during my time away from the Hype. Let's talk.
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These are two videos that really break it down well.

It is centered around the philosophy of Liberty. It is living your life within the Non-Aggression Principle as it's center. "Thou Shalt not initiate the use of force against another individual."

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Old 01-14-2013, 03:40 PM   #2
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If there are third party private arbiters instead of courts, how would there be reliable legal standards? And how would they deal with violent crimes?
That is a great question.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:49 PM   #3
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I don't want to listen to a podcast that's an hour and a half long. Can you answer my question without that?

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Old 01-14-2013, 04:37 PM   #4
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I don't like the name "Voluntaryism". It just seems...wrong.

The second video was very interesting. I liked it a lot.

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Old 01-14-2013, 04:44 PM   #5
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I don't want to listen to a podcast that's an hour and a half long. Can you answer my question without that?
Sorry. At work. I'll try to get back to it in a bit.

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Old 01-14-2013, 04:45 PM   #6
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I don't like the name "Voluntaryism". It just seems...wrong.

The second video was very interesting. I liked it a lot.
Voluntaryism just means that all interactions must be voluntary, nothing coerced or by force.

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Old 01-14-2013, 04:52 PM   #7
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I don't want to listen to a podcast that's an hour and a half long. Can you answer my question without that?
First question is, how does the society now deal with violent crime. Not very well considering the basis of that "solution" is violence on people to pay for it through taxation. If you don't pay for the taxation, you are forced to at the point of a gun, and then threatened with a cage (prison).

In a Free Society, everyone and anyone could be, would be carrying a weapon. Or at the very least, would hire people to protect you.

Also, in a free society, jobs would be more plenty, therefore the "need" of crimes would be lowered.

Also, much of crime is because of the War on Drugs, which wouldn't exist in a Free Society.

EDITED:

Think of it as Prevention instead of cure.

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Old 01-14-2013, 04:55 PM   #8
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Voluntaryism just means that all interactions must be voluntary, nothing coerced or by force.
So if someone forces me into a fight by punching me in the face I can not defend myself because that would be defense brought on by force and not voluntary defense? Sounds like a nice idea but completely impractical. What if a cop is forcing me to stop or trying to arrest me. That is an interaction of force.

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Old 01-14-2013, 04:57 PM   #9
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So if someone forces me into a fight by punching me in the face I can not defend myself because that would be defense brought on by force and not voluntary defense? Sounds like a nice idea but completely impractical. What if a cop is forcing me to stop or trying to arrest me. That is an interaction of force.
That's why I said "Initiation" of force. Self defense does not Initiate force.

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Old 01-14-2013, 05:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuBe View Post
First question is, how does the society now deal with violent crime. Not very well considering the basis of that "solution" is violence on people to pay for it through taxation. If you don't pay for the taxation, you are forced to at the point of a gun, and then threatened with a cage (prison).

In a Free Society, everyone and anyone could be, would be carrying a weapon. Or at the very least, would hire people to protect you.

Also, in a free society, jobs would be more plenty, therefore the "need" of crimes would be lowered.

Also, much of crime is because of the War on Drugs, which wouldn't exist in a Free Society.

EDITED:

Think of it as Prevention instead of cure.
1: How would jobs be more plentiful?

2: Would every single person being armed decrease violent crime? It might increase he amount of gun violence by escalating the amount of potential violence and access to deadly weapons. Possibly create more situations where, tempers flared, someone fires off a shot in a heat of the moment and you have everyone shooting each other in the confusion.

Maybe not, but it would vastly increase instances of deaths due to accidental gun discharge.

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Old 01-14-2013, 07:15 PM   #11
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How can anybody know what a "free society" is when the subjugation has been part of the Human psyche since the beginning of humans?

Everything you said about how a free society is unsubstantiated and false because there is no such thing as freedom as a construct outside of the reality we have created for ourselves. You are wishing and dreaming for a "free" society that has never existed nor will it ever exist because you would have to change every person's way of thinking to your reality. Which in itself would be living by your or the Voluntaryism way, just like we live in the "farm" way now, meaning you still wouldn't have a free society.

Also, in your free society there would be no religion or laws because they would be constraining the freedom of people.

Please don't misunderstand me, I am trying to see yours and the Voluntaryism point of view but I see lots of holes in the theory and in the logic behind it.

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Old 01-15-2013, 08:48 AM   #12
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1: How would jobs be more plentiful?

2: Would every single person being armed decrease violent crime? It might increase he amount of gun violence by escalating the amount of potential violence and access to deadly weapons. Possibly create more situations where, tempers flared, someone fires off a shot in a heat of the moment and you have everyone shooting each other in the confusion.

Maybe not, but it would vastly increase instances of deaths due to accidental gun discharge.
1. History, Reason and Evidence. Whenever entrepreneurs are free and able to start and grow their business without outside and centralized regulation, and when capital is freely able to flow into the Marketplace, and whenever risk is allowed to fail, jobs grow.

2. Same concept as nuclear deterrence. No nuclear country has ever went to war with another. Mutually assured destruction is a power thing. If you plan to harm someone, and know they can't defend themselves, nothing will stop you. But again, you are asking this question as if the current system actually solves these problems.

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Old 01-15-2013, 08:54 AM   #13
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How can anybody know what a "free society" is when the subjugation has been part of the Human psyche since the beginning of humans?

Everything you said about how a free society is unsubstantiated and false because there is no such thing as freedom as a construct outside of the reality we have created for ourselves. You are wishing and dreaming for a "free" society that has never existed nor will it ever exist because you would have to change every person's way of thinking to your reality. Which in itself would be living by your or the Voluntaryism way, just like we live in the "farm" way now, meaning you still wouldn't have a free society.

Also, in your free society there would be no religion or laws because they would be constraining the freedom of people.

Please don't misunderstand me, I am trying to see yours and the Voluntaryism point of view but I see lots of holes in the theory and in the logic behind it.
I appreciate the questions and the dialog. Saying that it hasn't ever existed and it's just a "dream" is the same argument used against Abolitionists 160+ years ago. Just because it doesn't exist now doesn't mean it isn't moral and just and right.

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Old 01-15-2013, 08:56 AM   #14
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www.freedomainradio.com has over 2200 podcasts, over 1000 videos, and about a dozen free books to read or audiobook to listen to. Everything is free. Please listen or watch and let's discuss.

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Old 01-15-2013, 07:10 PM   #15
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I don't think it's particularly fair of you to ask us to do homework in order to discuss this with you. I think you should be able to make the case to us yourself.

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Old 01-15-2013, 08:20 PM   #16
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Its ironic that extreme left wing and extreme right wing concepts often seem to have things in common. Some of this can be seem to be similar to left wing anarchism, only they take it further and think property and private businesses should be done away, as well as the state.

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Old 01-16-2013, 12:07 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuBe View Post
Have you heard of Voluntaryism? I have been reading and researching this for quite some time, during my time away from the Hype. Let's talk.
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


These are two videos that really break it down well.

It is centered around the philosophy of Liberty. It is living your life within the Non-Aggression Principle as it's center. "Thou Shalt not initiate the use of force against another individual."
I'm a Libertarian and...maybe a flip-flopper on this one. Though Shalt not initiate the use of force against another individual? Even if it's a person who is abusing animals? Animal Cruelty on farms. I've seen a video from a Ohio Farm that is sick and pretty much makes me want to 'use force' against the so called 'people' there.

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Old 01-16-2013, 08:01 AM   #18
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I don't think it's particularly fair of you to ask us to do homework in order to discuss this with you. I think you should be able to make the case to us yourself.
I think it is fair for people, if interested in it, can do a little research and we can have a dialog. I'm not your teacher or your father. If you want to have a discussion, we can. I'm open to talking about it.

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Old 01-16-2013, 08:07 AM   #19
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Its ironic that extreme left wing and extreme right wing concepts often seem to have things in common. Some of this can be seem to be similar to left wing anarchism, only they take it further and think property and private businesses should be done away, as well as the state.
Voluntaryism is also known as Anarcho-Capitalism where it is understood that the property is an extension of the actions of an individual and no different than a portion of the individual. You spend time and energy acquiring food that is disseminated by your body to feed and fuel and grow your cells. Just like you spend time and energy to acquire wealth to pay for that food. It's an extension of your Life and Liberty. And to remove a portion of your property by force is akin to removing a portion of your body. You can give your body Voluntarily, but if taken by force it is evil.

In this argument, the only evil in the world would be the Initiation of Force. Every action must be voluntary and without coercion. This would lead to happiness.

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Old 01-16-2013, 08:08 AM   #20
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This is very much like Anarchy based Governments, or Anarcho-capitalism. It's something of a conservatism runamuck theory of Government, kind of like how resource-based economies smack of extreme liberalism and or communism.

I'm frankly not sure any of it is realistic.

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Old 01-16-2013, 08:12 AM   #21
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So what would be the changes to our society with such a system in place other than having no taxes?

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Old 01-16-2013, 08:12 AM   #22
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I'm a Libertarian and...maybe a flip-flopper on this one. Though Shalt not initiate the use of force against another individual? Even if it's a person who is abusing animals? Animal Cruelty on farms. I've seen a video from a Ohio Farm that is sick and pretty much makes me want to 'use force' against the so called 'people' there.
It should be understood that those people that abuse animals do so because they were abused as children. The Parents or someone in their community abused them first. The way they act toward animals, or other people for that matter is solely based on interactions they have had as children with adults. Children mimic and replicate the actions of adults until it becomes a portion of their personality. The words and actions of adults become ingrained into children, it becomes their inner voice as adults.

If children are raised peacefully, with respect to the Non-Aggression Principle, their would be no Animal Abuse or violence in the culture.

Voluntaryism is not a system that can be adopted and enforced. It is a system with no system. It is a philosophy on how we must live our lives if we want peace and happiness and respect for human life.

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Old 01-16-2013, 08:13 AM   #23
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This is very much like Anarchy based Governments, or Anarcho-capitalism. It's something of a conservatism runamuck theory of Government, kind of like how resource-based economies smack of extreme liberalism and or communism.

I'm frankly not sure any of it is realistic.
False. Voluntaryism is no Government. It's Rules without Rulers.

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Old 01-16-2013, 08:15 AM   #24
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I appreciate the questions and the dialog. Saying that it hasn't ever existed and it's just a "dream" is the same argument used against Abolitionists 160+ years ago. Just because it doesn't exist now doesn't mean it isn't moral and just and right.
Eh? That's a stretch. Other civilizations at the time had abolished slavery, and even ancient cultures they knew about had abolished slavery. Even the Founders formed a Government that had been tried before, sometimes close approximations had been quite successful.

Like I say, most of the arguments you put forward are more or less philosophic assertions that have no bearing on reality. You simply can't assert these concepts without proving they actually exist.

Like SiBy just said, all society, and the human psyche itself has always had elements of oppressor and subject. Most societies also build themselves by erecting losers to take on the workload that the citizens obviously won't want to. We did it with slaves before, and we do it with sweatshop labor now.

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Old 01-16-2013, 08:15 AM   #25
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False. Voluntaryism is no Government. It's Rules without Rulers.
Both those I listed have no rulers. Neither resources based nor Anarchocapitalist "governments" have rulers. The "Anarchy" prefix didn't give that away to you?

I'll be honest; it sounds exactly like Anarchocapitalism with a different name.


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