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Old 01-11-2013, 04:40 PM   #1
enterthemadness
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Default Greeks resort to bartering/alt currency.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...poverty-crisis

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n this bustling port city at the foot of Mount Pelion, in the heart of Greece's most fertile plain, locals have come up with a novel way of dealing with austerity adopting their own alternative currency, known as the Tem. As the country struggles with its worst crisis in modern times, with Greeks losing up to 40% of their disposable income as a result of policies imposed in exchange for international aid, the system has been a huge success. Organisers say some 1,300 people have signed up to the informal bartering network.

For users such as Ioanitou, the currency a form of community banking monitored exclusively online is not only an effective antidote to wage cuts and soaring taxes but the "best kind of shopping therapy". "One Tem is the equivalent of one euro. My oil and soap came to 70 Tem and with that I bought oranges, pies, napkins, cleaning products and Christmas decorations," said the mother-of-five. "I've got 30 Tem left over. For women, who are worst affected by unemployment, and don't have kafeneia [coffeehouses] to go to like men, it's like belonging to a hugely supportive association."
My heart goes out to Greece and the Greeks. If we aren't careful, we (USA) can easily be like Greece with our massive debt and fiat money system.

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Old 01-11-2013, 04:42 PM   #2
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Default Re: Greeks resort to bartering/alt currency.

The Debt Situation that the Government has gotten us into is far worse that Greece. It's just that the Balloon hasn't burst yet. It will be much more painful when it hits the fan, here.

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Old 01-11-2013, 04:48 PM   #3
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Default Re: Greeks resort to bartering/alt currency.

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The Debt Situation that the Government has gotten us into is far worse that Greece. It's just that the Balloon hasn't burst yet. It will be much more painful when it hits the fan, here.

The only thing I can honestly think of..in terms of good coming out of a collapse here, is that 3rd parties are probably going to rise up. Either the current big three (Libertarian, Green, Constitution) or new ones will come about. It also comes down to money as well. And if no 3rd parties rise up or come about after a collapse, we don't deserve to rise from the ashes. Republicans and Democrats are leading us into a **** hole, and you expect 'them' to get us out? sounds logical.

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Old 01-11-2013, 04:54 PM   #4
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Default Re: Greeks resort to bartering/alt currency.

Wanting a Libertarian Party to be elected, now, would be akin to replacing the captain of the Titanic 1 minute before it struck the Iceberg. He will be remembered as the President that brought down the Ship and Libertarianism will be known as not being able to work and it will never be tried again. It would be worse for the Liberty Movement if a Libertarian becomes President. If you want a solution to the problem, shore up your debts, become self sufficient and learn the truth. Get Gold, Get food, get to know your community and learn to live without Government there, because one day in our lifetime, it will hit.

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Old 01-11-2013, 06:42 PM   #5
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Default Re: Greeks resort to bartering/alt currency.

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Wanting a Libertarian Party to be elected, now, would be akin to replacing the captain of the Titanic 1 minute before it struck the Iceberg. He will be remembered as the President that brought down the Ship and Libertarianism will be known as not being able to work and it will never be tried again. It would be worse for the Liberty Movement if a Libertarian becomes President. If you want a solution to the problem, shore up your debts, become self sufficient and learn the truth. Get Gold, Get food, get to know your community and learn to live without Government there, because one day in our lifetime, it will hit.

We need Govt in our lives, but it needs to be a limited Govt to protect us from fraud, harm, and nations that will do us harm. A Govt that will live within it means.

I don't agree with you, but you make a valid point. At same time, a part of me wants to see a 3rd party elected to see if it can save us before a collapse. A collapse will be bad. The only good will be the major parties will take one hell of a hit, one that I doubt both will recover from. I can't see the Republican Party being around much longer. I rather see Democrats spend and do stupid stuff, cause Republicans seem to want to be like the Democrats, except on Steroids.

I don't have the time to buy gold. I am looking for a job off/on and stressing out. Poor people like me don't have time to really 'look for gold'. If anything, maybe I could barter when **** hits that fan.

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Old 01-13-2013, 12:47 AM   #6
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Default Re: Greeks resort to bartering/alt currency.

Then learn a skill. Do something that will be valuable after it is done. Even if it isn't gold. L:earn how to grow food, how to build something.

The problem is we have been brainwashed into believing that solutions can be done through political means. Solutions have to be developed through personal introspection and how you live vitrulously. Look up the Non-Agression Principle. If a Government is supposed to be in place to protect Life, Liberty and Property, why would it need Taxation, which it enforces through violations of the N.A.P., to exist in the first place? "We'll take a majority of your property, to protect your property?" Sounds bad to me.

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Old 01-13-2013, 01:09 AM   #7
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Default Re: Greeks resort to bartering/alt currency.

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Then learn a skill. Do something that will be valuable after it is done. Even if it isn't gold. L:earn how to grow food, how to build something.

The problem is we have been brainwashed into believing that solutions can be done through political means. Solutions have to be developed through personal introspection and how you live vitrulously. Look up the Non-Agression Principle. If a Government is supposed to be in place to protect Life, Liberty and Property, why would it need Taxation, which it enforces through violations of the N.A.P., to exist in the first place? "We'll take a majority of your property, to protect your property?" Sounds bad to me.

Eh...I think I rather just take the easy route and just sit back and smoke...watch the chaos play out.

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Old 01-13-2013, 01:18 PM   #8
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Default Re: Greeks resort to bartering/alt currency.

Government regulation is a very tricky thing. To say that we're better off without it, I think, is extremely foolish, but there are also potential dangers in it. Too much regulation, and we're denied personal freedoms. But too little regulation, and you end up with individuals amassing power and oppressing others instead of governments, you get exploitation of workers, pollution, and all off the worst aspects of the private sector. Government regulation needs to exist, but it has to be handled delicately, it's not an all or nothing thing.

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Old 01-14-2013, 10:26 AM   #9
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Default Re: Greeks resort to bartering/alt currency.

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Government regulation is a very tricky thing. To say that we're better off without it, I think, is extremely foolish, but there are also potential dangers in it. Too much regulation, and we're denied personal freedoms. But too little regulation, and you end up with individuals amassing power and oppressing others instead of governments, you get exploitation of workers, pollution, and all off the worst aspects of the private sector. Government regulation needs to exist, but it has to be handled delicately, it's not an all or nothing thing.
The roll of Government is supposed to protect and defend the Right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. That is it. Not the regulation of currencies or business. If Government is supposed to Protect Property, then how can they justify theft of protect in defense of it?

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Old 01-14-2013, 01:37 PM   #10
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The roll of Government is supposed to protect and defend the Right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. That is it. Not the regulation of currencies or business. If Government is supposed to Protect Property, then how can they justify theft of protect in defense of it?
Defending life, liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness and regulating businesses are not mutually. Completely unregulated businesses can lead to very powerful individuals abusing that power to infringe on the lives, liberty, and happiness of others. Unregulated business had led to exploitation of workers, pollution, and child labor. Not doing something about that is failing to protect life, liberty and happiness.

Also, could you please define theft of property?

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Old 01-14-2013, 01:47 PM   #11
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Default Re: Greeks resort to bartering/alt currency.

What SuBe is arguing for, I believe, is not the existence of business without rules - but rather a rule of laws over a rule of regulators. Pollution torts, for example, can be handled through the legal system, rather than a bloated EPA.

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Old 01-14-2013, 02:27 PM   #12
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Default Re: Greeks resort to bartering/alt currency.

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Defending life, liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness and regulating businesses are not mutually. Completely unregulated businesses can lead to very powerful individuals abusing that power to infringe on the lives, liberty, and happiness of others. Unregulated business had led to exploitation of workers, pollution, and child labor. Not doing something about that is failing to protect life, liberty and happiness.

Also, could you please define theft of property?
Monopolies in business can't be solved by a Monopoly on force. The only reason a business would become a monopoly would be because of preferential treatment by Governments. It is not a good business model to do business by fraud and still expect consumers to purchase your goods for very long, or other companies to do business with you. You would lose market share and therefore profits. Yet, if you could get Government involved so there is no competition or extends legal protections around your business practices, you inflate disproportionally to what would happen in a true free market.

By "theft of Property", I am referring to taxation. Taxation is theft of property that if done by someone that wasn't a Government Agent, would be considered immoral. But, because Government does it, it's considered good and moral. THAT is due to indoctrination started at an early age, government schools.

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Old 01-14-2013, 02:30 PM   #13
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Default Re: Greeks resort to bartering/alt currency.

I like bartering better than currency anyway

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Old 01-14-2013, 02:31 PM   #14
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The Debt Situation that the Government has gotten us into is far worse that Greece. It's just that the Balloon hasn't burst yet. It will be much more painful when it hits the fan, here.
It's true...
We keep pumping air into it hoping it won't explode.

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Old 01-14-2013, 02:38 PM   #15
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It will pop in our life times. That's a guarantee. Nearly $17 Trillion in debt, it's going to be bad and bloody, the best thing to do is prepare.

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Old 01-14-2013, 03:39 PM   #16
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Monopolies in business can't be solved by a Monopoly on force. The only reason a business would become a monopoly would be because of preferential treatment by Governments. It is not a good business model to do business by fraud and still expect consumers to purchase your goods for very long, or other companies to do business with you. You would lose market share and therefore profits. Yet, if you could get Government involved so there is no competition or extends legal protections around your business practices, you inflate disproportionally to what would happen in a true free market.
How is it that the only way a monopoly can come to be is through preferential treatment from the government?

What do you mean by "do business by fraud?"

Companies today, in the real world, pollute the environment and exploit their workers and create monopolies, often without preferential treatment.

You say that it is a bad business model to conduct your business "by fraud" and expect people to buy your product and do business with you. But that happens all the time. Some of the most successful companies in America engage in unethical practices and churn out low quality or even harmful products, because those practices keep costs down, which means they're the option more people will turn to. Unethical business practices are very good business plans, because most consumers don't think about ethics or quality when they buy appliances and ketchup, they think about how much it costs.

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By "theft of Property", I am referring to taxation. Taxation is theft of property that if done by someone that wasn't a Government Agent, would be considered immoral. But, because Government does it, it's considered good and moral. THAT is due to indoctrination started at an early age, government schools.
If we get rid of taxation, how can a government pay for the services it provides the people? Even a small limited government will have expenses.

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Old 01-14-2013, 03:52 PM   #17
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If we get rid of taxation, how can a government pay for the services it provides the people? Even a small limited government will have expenses.
Good question. What would your answer be?

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Old 01-14-2013, 03:52 PM   #18
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Good question. What would your answer be?
My answer would be to not get rid of taxation.

What would your answer be? Since I asked you.

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Old 01-14-2013, 03:56 PM   #19
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How is it that the only way a monopoly can come to be is through preferential treatment from the government?

What do you mean by "do business by fraud?"

Companies today, in the real world, pollute the environment and exploit their workers and create monopolies, often without preferential treatment.

You say that it is a bad business model to conduct your business "by fraud" and expect people to buy your product and do business with you. But that happens all the time. Some of the most successful companies in America engage in unethical practices and churn out low quality or even harmful products, because those practices keep costs down, which means they're the option more people will turn to. Unethical business practices are very good business plans, because most consumers don't think about ethics or quality when they buy appliances and ketchup, they think about how much it costs.
There is no Corporation in America that doesn't have to provide it's goods or service through the filter of Government, currently. They must exist within the parameters that is brought forth by Government.

Imagine you have a business in a world without Government. If you wanted to defraud your customers, you will have to answer to your competitors. With a Government, you only have to buy off the Government and have legislation that benefits you and your competitors, who may not have the financial ability to retaliate against your cronyism, will have to compete in an unbalance landscape.

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Old 01-14-2013, 03:58 PM   #20
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My answer would be to not get rid of taxation.

What would your answer be? Since I asked you.
Well, first you wouldn't be able to collect your revenue at the point of a gun or threaten to put them into a cage. You would have to be able to provide that service voluntarily without coercion.

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Old 01-14-2013, 03:58 PM   #21
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There is no Corporation in America that doesn't have to provide it's goods or service through the filter of Government, currently. They must exist within the parameters that is brought forth by Government.

Imagine you have a business in a world without Government. If you wanted to defraud your customers, you will have to answer to your competitors. With a Government, you only have to buy off the Government and have legislation that benefits you and your competitors, who may not have the financial ability to retaliate against your cronyism, will have to compete in an unbalance landscape.
What do you mean by "answer to your competitors?"

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Old 01-14-2013, 03:59 PM   #22
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Well, first you wouldn't be able to collect your revenue at the point of a gun or threaten to put them into a cage. You would have to be able to provide that service voluntarily without coercion.
Okay.

How do you do that?

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Old 01-14-2013, 04:01 PM   #23
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What do you mean by "answer to your competitors?"
Provide a better service or product at a cheaper price to your customers.

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Old 01-14-2013, 04:03 PM   #24
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Provide a better service or product at a cheaper price to your customers.
But unethical business practices, things like worker exploitation and environmental pollution and producing a low quality product, are the easiest and most common means for a company to lower it's prices.

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Old 01-14-2013, 04:05 PM   #25
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Okay.

How do you do that?
Courts can be replaced with third party arbiters. If you go against your contract with someone else, it could be detrimental to a "contract score", similar to a "credit score". Your business reputation would be important to you.

Asking this question is a lot like asking, "But if we freed the slaved, who would pick the cotton?". In a free market, there would be people that would set up solutions. The most efficient would win out.

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