Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

[Spider - Man]

Originally Posted by Pink Ranger

Remember that not too long ago the United States had a fundamentalist Christian president who started an unnecessary war in Iraq because, by his own admission, God told him to do it.

How many Middle Easterners have been killed in that action? Far more than Americans killed in 9/11, and way, way, way more than the number of Americans killed because of the youtube video.

Furthermore, the war in Iraq and actions similar to that are also ideology-driven: by extreme fundamentalist Christians who believe an apocalyptic war in the Middle East will bring Jesus back. This idealogy shaped the military and foreign relations policy of the largest military power in the world during the Bush era, and still exerts considerable influence now.

So tell me again that Islam is somehow alone in being an extremely dangerous religion and a threat to the rest of the world.

Bottom line: Saddam cooperates with UN weapons inspectors, we never would've gone to war in Iraq and he'd probably still be alive.

And we didn't march in there in the name of Jesus! Why don't you get in touch with reality.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

You talk like this is some new idea that no one has ever thought of before. Do you think there have not long been efforts to 'educate' and collaborate over there? It doesn't change anything. And things only get worse over there. I remember in the 70s when Carter held the peace talks with Bagin (sp?) and Sadat and they were all so warm and fuzzy and even called it the 'Jimmy Carter Peace talks'. What good did that do? None. Situation's worse than ever.

I'm sorry, but even 1,000 graduates through cross cultural exchange won't make even the front page of any newspaper. But again, those efforts are the most effective. This type of dialogue is what helps people in the Muslim world differentiate between the cross burning, mosque burning types and the majority who don't share their beliefs.

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

Well, in case it wasn't clear, I was speaking of militant Muslim extremists,

Okay, well then let's get another thing clear here. Not all the people protesting infront of embassies or in the streets of major nations in the world fall in the pool of militant Muslim extremists. The videos were equally deplored by most likely, the majority of the 1.5 Billion Muslims around the world, not to mention non Musilms.

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

]Again, muslim extremists, not all muslims. However I would like to take a second to point out a glaring disparity. I find it funny that it seems ok to democrats to paint all conservatives as racist/homophobic/sexist/whatever yet it must be pointed out when talking of muslims that the majority of them are peace-loving. Just seems funny how the left gets to apply these double standards with no one calling them on it.

OK, noted.

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

I'll just say this about it since I haven;t actually looked for any evidence, but for myself, the first I heard about the video was from Jay Carney on the national news. How many others do you think first discovered this otherwise obscure video from this white house rep who was trying to say that the riots weren't due to them hating America but over the video? How far did that one message go to promote the existence of this video?

Not sure, haven't read that.

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

source?

Abdul Rahman (L), Sayed Jamil (2nd L), Jawad (2nd R) and Zelghai (R) Afghan labourers who worked at the U.S. base in Bagram speak during an interview at a restaurant in Bagram north of Kabul February 23, 2012. In a small room near NATO's sprawling Bagram Airbase, Sayed Jamil fumes as he remembers how three U.S. soldiers ignored the pleas of fellow labourers not to burn dozens of copies of the Koran, the Muslim holy book.

Source(s): Reuters, Press TV, Xinhua

--

In this instance in February, over 25 people were killed in Afghanistan, mostly protestors from all over Afghanistan. Usually protests against the US were mainly in the Pashtun dominated South and East of the country. The protests spread to NATO strongholds of Kunduz, and Kabul. Here's another article with an eye witness:

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Fifth...ked-24075.html

Here's a video of some of the early stages of the protests from RT news:




--

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

Sounds like you make a pretty good argument for banning any anti-Christian stuff in the media (which would be A LOT OF STUFF!). Since there are no insidence of Christians attacking movie studios, production companies, publishing companies, Youtube, and a host of other outlets which promote Christian bashing/mockery, they seem to fall into the same category as the people whose rights to be offended you seem to be speaking in support of. The anti-muslim media doesn't compare in quantity and scope to that which makes fun of Christianity.

How did you make the connection between burning Korans or insulting their religion and the banning of Anti-Christian stuff in the US? OK, I'll just go with it. If Christians got in the streets in massive protests, fighting with police, burning down Middle Eastern embassies, I think there should be some discussion in the ME , especially those ME countries occupying the United States, building bases, and helping them form a government...in cultural sensitivity. Satisfied?

You just contradicted yourself. First you say that the government wouldn't allow such offensive videos and then show that the government not allowing them makes no difference anyway.

How is that a contradiction on me? That's the government's fault for not cracking down on it. For all we know, some of the government employee's are watching the same Indian soap operas and listening to Euro-pop. Only the Mullahs are the ones complaining about those sort of things, and in some countries they have a lot of sway (ie. Afghanistan). Also, can you really compare a YT video insulting their identity, and threatening to burn their holy book with Sponge Bob or Bollywood melodrama?

This further sinks your earlier point about the government banning youtube as you clearly point out how government banning media is basically ineffectual.

It's been pretty effective so far in Afghanistan. There have been some peaceful protests, but nothing extremely violent that we have seen in the past. Remember this is the same country that had nation wide violent protests over the Terry Jones debacle, and the even more violent protests after the Koran burnings back in February that led to the deaths of over 40 people.

For my part, I was again talking about the extremist muslims, not the majority of those who will watch whatever as long as it doesn't attack their religion. The muslim extremists are more concerned with how far they can push the envelope to meet their objective: seeing the entire world under muslim rule. My point is that they first use 'offense over attacks against their religion' as an excuse (and thats all it is, an excuse to be violent and barbaric) to get non-muslim countries and governments to give in to their demands. When they are shown that they can do whatever they want and their demands are met (i.e.: the video being taken down, a free-speech issue) they'll say "hey, let's push a little more, ask for something a little less reasonable and threaten more violence if our demands aren't met and see just how much the weak americans will actually give up to avoid any conflict with us!

You're going way overboard here. We know what extremists want. Al Qaeda made their requests loud and clear even before 9/11. They went all US bases off ME land. They also want a fundamentalist super state across the entire ME and Asia.

The people protesting the streets of Cairo, Benghazi, Kabul, Jakarta, Quetta, Mumbai, are not Al Qaeda. They feel that the US is responsible for these videos because in some of those nations, the government controls what can be watched and they think (because they aren't educated enough) that the US purposely released these videos to attack them. This pent up aggression has been building for some time and was easily exploited by the extremists in Benghazi.

Most average, frustrated people in the ME (and even outside the ME) feel that the American doctrine for the ME has been to build more bases, topple more governments, and kill civlians with impunity. They also have pent up distrust from the Israeli colonial experiment that is entirely one sided blind support and defense of Israel. There's a lot of problems there, but it's important to differentiate between the motives. Your accusation that they want to dominate the West through force and cohersion is absolutely ridiculous. There is a victim mentality in the ME and N. Africa. They feel they are the victims of the West since the imperial forces first landed on their shores. They mostly want a free, prosperous nation (after being dominated by the Ottomans, Brits, French, Americans, Dutch) without foreign interference, and ironically, they want foreign investment and trade.

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

Your point was that we shouldn't offned them so what if they next say that is what offends them?

You're taking it entirely out of context. What I mean is, if you're in their country, in a very sensitive time (ie. Nation building), cousin Cletus shouldn't be taking pictures of himself taking a dump on their holy book and posting it publically, unintentionally endangering you abroad.

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

How far do we let them go commiting acts of murder against Americans before we realize that the more we give in, the more they will want, only stopping up to and including a world-wide ban on freedom of any religion other than islam.

You can't seem to differentiate between Muslims and the extremists who exploit their frustrations. Most muslims were appauled, but like I said, they aren't going to try to 'demand the world to ban freedom of religion'.

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

We will just choose to disagree. I don't think that the main point he wanted to get across was that he had the right to express himself. I don;t think he was saying "see, i have the right, because I live in America, to express myself!" (your lemonade) which is good. The right to freedom of expression is a good thing but not the point he was trying to get across. I think the point he wanted to get across is what he thinks of as the 'destructive ideology of islam (which he considers bad, not good, i.e.: not like lemonade).

But he really thinks that practicing his 1st amendment rights in the most offensive way is the best way to show those 'radicals' what Christians and Americans are all about.

When The Daily Beast asked Jones if he felt he shared any responsibility for the deaths, Jones replied: “Absolutely not. We are here 1,000 miles away. Our actions pose absolutely no danger to their lifestyle. ... What it does, of course, is insult them, but that’s what freedom of speech does.” [Source

Terry Jones has hate speech, wrapped in xenophobic ignorance, and served with a side of bigotry. He wanted to show 'extremists' that they had not 'won' on 9/11 with their victory mosque. With that brilliant statement, he unintentionally admitted that he associates Muslims in New York with Al Qaeda.

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

Side note: did you not find it strange that certain people wanted to put a mosque that represented the religion that people who commited the most infamous act against America said they were doing in honor of in the location that that very act was commited?

Actually I just find that you contradicted yourself. If you associate the terrorists and their 'kill all' ideology who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks with real Muslims who don't believe in killing civilians, you have undoubtely reached the level of ignorance as Terry Jones in my opinion.

[Spider - Man]

Originally Posted by Midnyte_Sun

I'm sorry, but even 1,000 graduates through cross cultural exchange won't make even the front page of any newspaper. But again, those efforts are the most effective. This type of dialogue is what helps people in the Muslim world differentiate between the cross burning, mosque burning types and the majority who don't share their beliefs.

My point is it hasn’t been just 1000 graduates but that many many times over, unless again, you imply that an effort of this kind has only just begun which would be silly to presume. You would think that there would be some indication that the cumulative effect of this effort was having a positive effect on the perception of the west by muslims in the middle east but I see none at all.

Originally Posted by Midnyte_Sun

Okay, well then let's get another thing clear here. Not all the people protesting infront of embassies or in the streets of major nations in the world fall in the pool of militant Muslim extremists. The videos were equally deplored by most likely, the majority of the 1.5 Billion Muslims around the world, not to mention non Musilms.

Probably. But as I said before, look at the sheer volume of media (tv, movies, literature, youtube vids, etc.) that mock Christ and those who worship Him. Should all Christians be out in the streets rioting/protesting over this?

Originally Posted by Midnyte_Sun

How did you make the connection between burning Korans or insulting their religion and the banning of Anti-Christian stuff in the US? OK, I'll just go with it. If Christians got in the streets in massive protests, fighting with police, burning down Middle Eastern embassies, I think there should be some discussion in the ME , especially those ME countries occupying the United States, building bases, and helping them form a government...in cultural sensitivity. Satisfied?

Well, in this case, national film studios, tv stations, publishing houses, actor and comedians’ houses and such would replace the ME. Should American Christians do this? Should the families of the 9/11 victimes do this? Remember, it is the perception (just as you say it is the majority of muslims’ perception about Americans) that the same people who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks are the same people who want to build a mosque at that site. Shouldn’t that demand some sensitivity?

Originally Posted by Midnyte_Sun

How is that a contradiction on me? That's the government's fault for not cracking down on it. For all we know, some of the government employee's are watching the same Indian soap operas and listening to Euro-pop. Only the Mullahs are the ones complaining about those sort of things, and in some countries they have a lot of sway (ie. Afghanistan). Also, can you really compare a YT video insulting their identity, and threatening to burn their holy book with Sponge Bob or Bollywood melodrama?

You said “The fact of the matter is, the governments of Muslim Republics wouldn't allow such programs to air offensive videos in the first place” when your following sentence made it clear that they in fact have no power to not allow such things.

Originally Posted by Midnyte_Sun

It's been pretty effective so far in Afghanistan. There have been some peaceful protests, but nothing extremely violent that we have seen in the past. Remember this is the same country that had nation wide violent protests over the Terry Jones debacle, and the even more violent protests after the Koran burnings back in February that led to the deaths of over 40 people.

I believe that point was about who specifically bans the videos, google or the government, not how effective banning it has been. But anyway, these violent protests you speak of. Were these carried out by extremists or the peace-loving population of the muslim community?

Originally Posted by Midnyte_Sun

You're going way overboard here. We know what extremists want. Al Qaeda made their requests loud and clear even before 9/11. They went all US bases off ME land. They also want a fundamentalist super state across the entire ME and Asia.

The people protesting the streets of Cairo, Benghazi, Kabul, Jakarta, Quetta, Mumbai, are not Al Qaeda. They feel that the US is responsible for these videos because in some of those nations, the government controls what can be watched and they think (because they aren't educated enough) that the US purposely released these videos to attack them. This pent up aggression has been building for some time and was easily exploited by the extremists in Benghazi.

Most average, frustrated people in the ME (and even outside the ME) feel that the American doctrine for the ME has been to build more bases, topple more governments, and kill civlians with impunity. They also have pent up distrust from the Israeli colonial experiment that is entirely one sided blind support and defense of Israel. There's a lot of problems there, but it's important to differentiate between the motives. Your accusation that they want to dominate the West through force and cohersion is absolutely ridiculous. There is a victim mentality in the ME and N. Africa. They feel they are the victims of the West since the imperial forces first landed on their shores. They mostly want a free, prosperous nation (after being dominated by the Ottomans, Brits, French, Americans, Dutch) without foreign interference, and ironically, they want foreign investment and trade.

Again, if education is the key I would have thought there would not have been so many muslims ignorant of the reality of the real situation. My take is that it is easier for them to protest America than to stand up to the militant minority that gives them such a bad name in the rest of the world. Bottom line, it is the minority who call the shots and so represent Islam as a whole. They seem to hold the power and call the shots.


In regards to the bolded sentence, I’m not sure if you mean the extremists, the rest or all of them together.

Do you deny that there are those who are the most public representatives of Islam such as Ahmadinejad who would gladly destroy every Jew in existence? As I said before, I do not believe that the majority of muslims condone the acts of the minority BUT they also will not stand up to them. The minority are the ones calling the shot and directing the behaviors of the majority so they are the ones we have to deal with. You seem to think education is the answer. I think they (the majority) already know what is going on but choose to take the easier path of passively following the lead of the extremist minority rather than try to stand up to them out of fear.

Bottom line, what difference does it make if the majority of muslims are peace loving if the minority can have such a big effect on what goes on in the world. They (the minority) want to take over the world, they’re seeing this goal more successful in Europe each day. There are tons of news media video on youtube and not from Fox news that uncovers what is going on. Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xRmKTD96po&feature=related

While you argue about which portion is/is not the true representative of Islam, they (the minority) are slowly growing, spreading their influence, exerting their will and meeting less and less resistance because people like you want to say “Hey, the majority of them are peaceful” like that makes a difference when the peaceful don’t exert their majority advantage to quell the rise of the minority.

Originally Posted by Midnyte_Sun

You're taking it entirely out of context. What I mean is, if you're in their country, in a very sensitive time (ie. Nation building), cousin Cletus shouldn't be taking pictures of himself taking a dump on their holy book and posting it publically, unintentionally endangering you abroad.



You can't seem to differentiate between Muslims and the extremists who exploit their frustrations. Most muslims were appauled, but like I said, they aren't going to try to 'demand the world to ban freedom of religion'.




But he really thinks that practicing his 1st amendment rights in the most offensive way is the best way to show those 'radicals' what Christians and Americans are all about.

When The Daily Beast asked Jones if he felt he shared any responsibility for the deaths, Jones replied: “Absolutely not. We are here 1,000 miles away. Our actions pose absolutely no danger to their lifestyle. ... What it does, of course, is insult them, but that’s what freedom of speech does.” [Source

Terry Jones has hate speech, wrapped in xenophobic ignorance, and served with a side of bigotry. He wanted to show 'extremists' that they had not 'won' on 9/11 with their victory mosque. With that brilliant statement, he unintentionally admitted that he associates Muslims in New York with Al Qaeda.

It seems you are more intent on advocating for the passive majority than for denouncing the actions of the minority simply because they hide behind the religion of the majority. So why focus so much on Tery Jones and not more on Christians (who he seems to try to represent) since he is giving painting us in such a bad light. In his case you focus on the minority (Jones) and his heinous act but in the case of the muslims, you instead take your focus away from the acts of the minority and instead focus on how that unfairly makes the world look at all muslims. Why the double standard?

Originally Posted by Midnyte_Sun

Actually I just find that you contradicted yourself. If you associate the terrorists and their 'kill all' ideology who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks with real Muslims who don't believe in killing civilians, you have undoubtely reached the level of ignorance as Terry Jones in my opinion.

Well, I think everyone would say it would be foolish to have hung a swastika outside a Jewish synagogue after WW2 just to show that it is really a symbol of eternity or peace depending on whether you were using Indian or Asian reference but had only recently been tainted by its association with the Nazi’s. That would not have been done because even though the true meaning of the symbol should not have been offensive, it would have been to the Jews because of what it meant to them due to its (the swastika’s) most vocal representatives (the Nazis).

Likewise, out of sensitivity to the feelings of the families of the victims of 9/11, a representation of the religion whose most vocal proponents perpetrated the 9/11 attacks should not be put on the site of that crime. But I guess the feelings of the innocent families of those victims are not as important to you as those of the passive ‘victims’ of the Islamic minority.

[Mandalore464]

Edit : Deleted

[Spider - Man]

Originally Posted by Mandalore464

In this analogy lies all the problem, and I think this is exactly why our opinions differ : We should have hung that Swastika outside a Jewish synagogue, and the Jews should have embraced it. Because then, we would have denied the Nazis the right to use that symbol as their own, we would have denied them a part of their identity, and we would have corrected the misuse of that symbol.

In the exact same way, if you allow a Mosque to be built at Ground Zero, and if the victims' families embrace it, this is a big "**** you" in the face of the terrorists who committed those heinous crimes while trying to hide behind a religion.

We are telling them "Here's a Mosque, because it has nothing to do with you. You are not representative of Islam, you're just a bunch of nutcases. You can't win against us, you can't turn us into ignorant fools who will spread your hatred around the world by killing innocent Muslims and therefore give you more reasons to commit future attacks. You are not justified, you have no identity, no rights, and all the people you killed and all the people you may kill will never change anything about it".

By allowing this Mosque to be built, you fight terrorism, by refusing to fall for their pathetic attempt at spreading hatred.

A few points:

First, you are right: we completely disagree. I wish there were some families of holocaust survivors on here to give you their opinion on that. I guess if you've never personally been affected by a tragedy like the 9/11 attack it may be hard for you to be concerned about the feelings of those families and could allow you therefore to condone what others more sensitive to it would call a cruel action. I think it would be perceived as a slap in the face to the families who lost loved ones on 9/11. You even say if the victims' families embraced it but do you really personally hold that as a stipulation? From your previous posts it seems you are more concerned about the rights of the muslims who want the mosque than the feelings of the families of the victims.

Second, I don't believe the extremists would get that messaga at all. I think they would consider it a victory because whether you acknowledge their claims to be muslim, to them they are and they would feel like they succeeded in adding insult to injury. As Tony Robbins says 'intention is nothing, meaning is everything'. In other words it doesn't matter what your intention is for doing something, all that matters is the way others interpret it. I see no way at all that the terrorists see a muslim mosque go up where they brought down the 2 towers and see it as anything other than something else they can brag about about the stupidity of America. The only way they would feel slighted would be if by doing that you somehow could make them think that they were not muslims and therefore had nothing to do with the mosque. Never happen.

Their 'pathetic' attempts are gaining ground every day. The latest population to start embracing islam is prison inmates so I guess the ratio of 'non-violent' muslims will take a dive even further. It doesn't matter if you want to say they are really muslim or not. It doesn't matter that the ones you consider true muslims are peaceful. What matters is that there is a growing group of people who hate America and anyone who does not claim to be muslim. Those (mydnyte sun) who might believe that my accusation that they want to dominate the West through force and cohersion is absolutely ridiculous obviously ignore how they're rapidly taking over Europe. There are tons of newsreel videos on youtube, newcasts by CNN about how rapidly the movement is spreading. Shari'a law has already gotten a toehold in the UK and it will only get worse. I will post one more just for fun - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbz1M...eature=related Again this isn't that 'racist islamaphobic Fox news' but Anderson Cooper.
Just listen to some of the wonderful ideas this guy has for England. And to any who deny that there is a danger just look at the growth to date in such a short timeframe and do the math out 20-30 years into the future.

They take over there and another term by as weak a president as obama and they'll start taking over here as well. One day they'll be telling you there identity: 'I'm the one telling you to convert (assuming you aren't already) or face the consequences.'

[Mandalore464]

Edit : Deleted

[floreairfoot]

Alright guys, I heard today that the upside-down crucifix, submerged in urine, is on its way back to a NY art gallery/museum.

Should we expect to hear an apology from the Obama administration, denouncing the "artwork"?

[Compi716]

Originally Posted by floreairfoot

Alright guys, I heard today that the upside-down crucifix, submerged in urine, is on its way back to a NY art gallery/museum.

Should we expect to hear an apology from the Obama administration, denouncing the "artwork"?

Thank you. It seems that our government only becomes apologetic when it comes to offending radical Muslims. Granted, that may be because their methods of reaction are extreme and violent and Christians tend to be far more calm. But still, the principles remain the same. You won't hear a single damn thing from the Obama administration on this.

[MessiahDecoy123]

If Christians start revolutions in oil rich countries due to art work and videos then I bet whoever is in the White House will apologize.

It's called diplomacy and you do what you have to, to protect American interest.

[AndrewGilkison]

Wasn't the statement that got put out before the attacks (the one Romney blasted the Obama administration on) basically saying "the movie that offended you and your religion doesn't reflect our values and we respect other religions"? How is that an "apology", exactly? Saying "this film doesn't speak for all of America and it's government" isn't exactly an apology.

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123

Okay let me know when there's an outpour of support in Libyan cities for America after this national tragedy.

Decrying anti-American attacks, protestors overtake radical Islamist group's HQ


Decrying attack, protesters overtake Islamist group's HQ in Benghazi
From Arwa Damon, CNN
September 22, 2012 -- Updated 0104 GMT (0904 HKT)

Protesters march in Benghazi on Friday. Demonstrators later took over the headquarters of Ansar al-Sharia.
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
-Protesters ask troops to take control of an Islamist group's HQ, a general says
-"I am sorry, America... This is the real Libya," a protester in Benghazi says
-Hundreds take over the Ansar al-Sharia group's headquarters without firing a shot
-That group is tied to an attack last week that left 4 Americans dead

Benghazi, Libya (CNN) -- Ten days after four Americans were killed in their Libyan city, hundreds marched in Benghazi and took over the headquarters of a radical Islamist group tied to the attack.
Thousands of protesters had taken to the street earlier Friday, loudly declaring that they -- and not those behind last week's deadly attack -- represent the real sentiments of the Libyan people.
"I am sorry, America," one man said. "This is the real Libya."
In the evening, an offshoot of several hundred people then headed toward the headquarters for Ansar al-Sharia, a loosely connected radical Islamist group.

As militia members fled, the protesters torched a vehicle and took over the group's building without firing a single shot. Some of those involved claimed to have freed at least 20 captives held inside, and expressed their intent to assume control over other Ansar al-Sharia buildings.
Army General Naji al-Shuaibi said the citizens, whom he referred to as "revolutionaries of the February 17 uprising," later asked that the Ansar al-Sharia headquarters be handed over to the Libyan army.
"Indeed, we rushed here and we will now take it over," said the general. "There are also other places that we intend to take over (which belong to armed groups) if the revolutionaries and the people allow us to do so."
Mohamed al-Magariaf, president of Libya's General National Congress, thanked the protesters for helping evict "armed groups."
But some of the protesters gathered at locations that house forces loyal to the national authority, he said. He asked those demonstrators to stop their activities and go home.
On the night of September 11, U.S. Ambassador Christopher Stevens was one of four Americans slain after a group assaulted the U.S. Consulate in the eastern Libyan city. Seen as the birthplace of the revolution that led to the death of longtime Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, Benghazi has in recent months been beset by security issues. Initial reports indicated that, ahead of the consular attack, Ansar al-Sharia had organized a protest to decry an inflammatory film that mocks the Prophet Mohammed and also protest the United States, where the film was privately produced.
On Thursday, Libyan Prime Minister Mustafa Abushagur said eight detained in connection with that assault include members of Ansar al-Sharia, though he added that not all the attackers came from one specific group.
Responding to the report from Benghazi, U.S. Sen. John McCain applauded the citizens' efforts Friday and said it represented the true, freedom-loving Libya that he and other U.S. officials involved in the country knew.
"Somewhere Chris Stevens is smiling," the Arizona Republican said. "This is what we knew ... about Libya."


Do you conceed now, sir?

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Now headlining on MSNBC's website too!

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...ed-groups?lite

I think it's only fair that people who accused all Libyans of being terrorists or terrorist sympathizers after the consulate attack now accuse all Libyans of being flag-waving, American supporters too! No, not really. But at least admit your blanket statements about the whole country were wrong.

[Victarion]

Interesting developments.

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer

Now headlining on MSNBC's website too!

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...ed-groups?lite

I think it's only fair that people who accused all Libyans of being terrorists or terrorist sympathizers after the consulate attack now accuse all Libyans of being flag-waving, American supporters too! No, not really. But at least admit your blanket statements about the whole country were wrong.

My hats off to these people.

[Arc-Light]

Originally Posted by floreairfoot

Alright guys, I heard today that the upside-down crucifix, submerged in urine, is on its way back to a NY art gallery/museum.

Should we expect to hear an apology from the Obama administration, denouncing the "artwork"?

Yes because heaven forbid we apologize out of the hope we can quell the violence and no-body else gets hurt, how pathetic our pride...

[rowan sjet]

Originally Posted by Marvolo

My hats off to these people.

I'd give them a 10 minute standing ovation.

[Spider - Man]

Originally Posted by Mandalore464

Why are you so scared?

Being alone on the subway with a shifty looking character doesn’t mean I am afraid of him but it also doesn’t mean I’m gonna lie down with my back to him and take a nap.

Originally Posted by Mandalore464

I live in Europe. Save for my stay in India, a few trips to Canada and 6 months in New Zealand, I've been in Europe all my life. I mostly live in Toulon, France which if you check is the French city with the second largest Muslim population, the first being the city of Marseille, which is only a 40-minute drive from here.

Clearer and clearer. You don’t live in America, you live in a highly muslim-popuated town and have for a long time, you are friends with these muslims, if you aren’t muslim yourself you certainly don’t sound Christian and aren’t American so wouldn’t represent anything that would insult their sensibilities and cause them to act any way other than civil to you, you support the feelings of muslims to erect a mosque at a location in a country you don’t live in and as far as I can tell have no particular sentiment for over the feelings of families who lost loved ones in a tragedy caused in the name of the muslim religion in that very spot. Yes, I see no bias on your part here whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Mandalore464

Muslims are not trying to take over, no matter what your obviously xenophobic media let you think. They are living their lives, trying to fit in. Working. A lot of them are from families that have been here since the 1960s. Taking over? Bull*****. Did Indians take over the UK? Did Black people take over the USA? I mean what the hell, dude...

Um, I posted video of the muslims stating how they wil take over england and throw any one who will not submit to the will of allah out of the country. Do you think that the ‘xenophobic media’ hired actors to play those muslim roles and t is all some big fictional production? 'Fit in'? You are a kook, you know that?

I read where you stipulate that extremists can’t be muslims. In America, we have a two party system. Across these 2 parties, the stances range across the spectrum from extreme conservatism thru moderate/middle-of-the-road to extreme liberalism. But WHATEVER the stance of any representative of either of those parties, we are ALL Americans and no one has the power to deny citizenship to another just because that othe’s views might be more extreme that our own. Likewise, despite whatever power you seem to think you hold, you cannot deny muslim-hood (for lack of a better term) to those who are extremists just because they don’t fit into your narrow definition of ‘muslim’. It must seem very convenient to stae your point of view when you try to argue from your own made-up set of rules. Doesn’t quite work that way in the real world. And ‘I mean what the hell, dude?’ Can you actually say that with a French accent?

Originally Posted by Mandalore464

I guess the fact that you don't know many Muslims and that the only Muslims you hear about are the ones crashing planes into buildings and blowing stuff up is what makes you so scared. But don't give in to that fear. Don't rely on TV and a couple of xenophobic websites to make up your mind. They are like you, sitting in their living-rooms thousands of miles away from the nearest Muslim population, and they just don't know what the **** they're talking about. Pulling imaginary numbers and fantasized takeovers out of their asses to bring validity to their claims.

And as I said, I guess the fact that you are basically immersed in the muslim culture is what makes you such an apologist for them.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt though. When I talk about ‘muslims’ I am speaking of the extremist muslims. When you respond, I will allow that you may be talking about the OTHER muslims so we’re not actually taking about the same group of people. From here on understand that when I refer to muslims, unless I specify, I am speaking of the extreme muslims. If you respond, I will only assume you are responding about the same muslims I am referring to.

So with that in mind, after viewing the video I showed a link to how can you say they are not trying to take over? Yes they don’t know what the **** they’re talking about. They just have video of the muslims themselves to back up what they report but that doesn’t support your argument so lets just call them xenophobes and try to put the onus on them instead of the muslims.

One last thing, what is your view on Shari’a? Just curious as it is supposed to be the Islamic law and there is violence inherent in it.

[Spider - Man]

Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer

Decrying anti-American attacks, protestors overtake radical Islamist group's HQ


Decrying attack, protesters overtake Islamist group's HQ in Benghazi
From Arwa Damon, CNN
September 22, 2012 -- Updated 0104 GMT (0904 HKT)

Protesters march in Benghazi on Friday. Demonstrators later took over the headquarters of Ansar al-Sharia.
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
-Protesters ask troops to take control of an Islamist group's HQ, a general says
-"I am sorry, America... This is the real Libya," a protester in Benghazi says
-Hundreds take over the Ansar al-Sharia group's headquarters without firing a shot
-That group is tied to an attack last week that left 4 Americans dead

Benghazi, Libya (CNN) -- Ten days after four Americans were killed in their Libyan city, hundreds marched in Benghazi and took over the headquarters of a radical Islamist group tied to the attack.
Thousands of protesters had taken to the street earlier Friday, loudly declaring that they -- and not those behind last week's deadly attack -- represent the real sentiments of the Libyan people.
"I am sorry, America," one man said. "This is the real Libya."
In the evening, an offshoot of several hundred people then headed toward the headquarters for Ansar al-Sharia, a loosely connected radical Islamist group.

As militia members fled, the protesters torched a vehicle and took over the group's building without firing a single shot. Some of those involved claimed to have freed at least 20 captives held inside, and expressed their intent to assume control over other Ansar al-Sharia buildings.
Army General Naji al-Shuaibi said the citizens, whom he referred to as "revolutionaries of the February 17 uprising," later asked that the Ansar al-Sharia headquarters be handed over to the Libyan army.
"Indeed, we rushed here and we will now take it over," said the general. "There are also other places that we intend to take over (which belong to armed groups) if the revolutionaries and the people allow us to do so."
Mohamed al-Magariaf, president of Libya's General National Congress, thanked the protesters for helping evict "armed groups."
But some of the protesters gathered at locations that house forces loyal to the national authority, he said. He asked those demonstrators to stop their activities and go home.
On the night of September 11, U.S. Ambassador Christopher Stevens was one of four Americans slain after a group assaulted the U.S. Consulate in the eastern Libyan city. Seen as the birthplace of the revolution that led to the death of longtime Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, Benghazi has in recent months been beset by security issues. Initial reports indicated that, ahead of the consular attack, Ansar al-Sharia had organized a protest to decry an inflammatory film that mocks the Prophet Mohammed and also protest the United States, where the film was privately produced.
On Thursday, Libyan Prime Minister Mustafa Abushagur said eight detained in connection with that assault include members of Ansar al-Sharia, though he added that not all the attackers came from one specific group.
Responding to the report from Benghazi, U.S. Sen. John McCain applauded the citizens' efforts Friday and said it represented the true, freedom-loving Libya that he and other U.S. officials involved in the country knew.
"Somewhere Chris Stevens is smiling," the Arizona Republican said. "This is what we knew ... about Libya."


Do you conceed now, sir?

If this is true, this is fantastic news. This is exactly what needs to happen if we are to have a chance to rid the world of extreme muslim terrorists. If the majority of muslims are peaceful and truely hate what the minority represents concerning islam, they need to use the power of their numbers and become as vocal against the extremists are. It is the only way.

[Spider - Man]

Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer

Now headlining on MSNBC's website too!

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...ed-groups?lite

I think it's only fair that people who accused all Libyans of being terrorists or terrorist sympathizers after the consulate attack now accuse all Libyans of being flag-waving, American supporters too! No, not really. But at least admit your blanket statements about the whole country were wrong.

I personally never made blanket statements about libyans or muslims (as stated elsewhere, when I referred to muslims i was speaking of the extremist variety) but it is time for the silent majority to wake up and reclaim their religion and become the main vocal representatives instead of the crazy minority. Only by being denounced by their own is there a chance to start making any headway in the war on terror.

[chamber-music]

There is a awesome video on Youtube of a group of Islamist protesters in Australia yelling burn in hell infidels, Islam is the only solution, ect and then a large crowd of Atheist counter protesters turn up and start singing always look on the bright side of life. They just ridiculed them shouting "Where are the women?" and "ZZ Top".

The video is on Youtube under - Aussie Atheists Own Islamist Protesters | Ridicule is the Best Weapon

I would post it here put there is a rude word or two used.

[Compi716]

Originally Posted by Mandalore464

In this analogy lies all the problem, and I think this is exactly why our opinions differ : We should have hung that Swastika outside a Jewish synagogue, and the Jews should have embraced it. Because then, we would have denied the Nazis the right to use that symbol as their own, we would have denied them a part of their identity, and we would have corrected the misuse of that symbol.

Yeah, no. I come from a family of Holocaust survivors. It's really all I've ever known. The meanings of symbols change. Please tell me you're not the guy painting swastikas on Jewish kid's college dorm room's doors, because I really don't want to have to call you an antisemite.

Take a step back and think about what your post says right here. Displaying a hateful image before those who felt its persecution so try can, what? Learn to accept it? Six million Jews died because of what that swastika represents...THERE IS NO ACCEPTING THAT.

[MessiahDecoy123]

Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer

Decrying anti-American attacks, protestors overtake radical Islamist group's HQ


Decrying attack, protesters overtake Islamist group's HQ in Benghazi
From Arwa Damon, CNN
September 22, 2012 -- Updated 0104 GMT (0904 HKT)

Protesters march in Benghazi on Friday. Demonstrators later took over the headquarters of Ansar al-Sharia.
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
-Protesters ask troops to take control of an Islamist group's HQ, a general says
-"I am sorry, America... This is the real Libya," a protester in Benghazi says
-Hundreds take over the Ansar al-Sharia group's headquarters without firing a shot
-That group is tied to an attack last week that left 4 Americans dead

Benghazi, Libya (CNN) -- Ten days after four Americans were killed in their Libyan city, hundreds marched in Benghazi and took over the headquarters of a radical Islamist group tied to the attack.
Thousands of protesters had taken to the street earlier Friday, loudly declaring that they -- and not those behind last week's deadly attack -- represent the real sentiments of the Libyan people.
"I am sorry, America," one man said. "This is the real Libya."
In the evening, an offshoot of several hundred people then headed toward the headquarters for Ansar al-Sharia, a loosely connected radical Islamist group.

As militia members fled, the protesters torched a vehicle and took over the group's building without firing a single shot. Some of those involved claimed to have freed at least 20 captives held inside, and expressed their intent to assume control over other Ansar al-Sharia buildings.
Army General Naji al-Shuaibi said the citizens, whom he referred to as "revolutionaries of the February 17 uprising," later asked that the Ansar al-Sharia headquarters be handed over to the Libyan army.
"Indeed, we rushed here and we will now take it over," said the general. "There are also other places that we intend to take over (which belong to armed groups) if the revolutionaries and the people allow us to do so."
Mohamed al-Magariaf, president of Libya's General National Congress, thanked the protesters for helping evict "armed groups."
But some of the protesters gathered at locations that house forces loyal to the national authority, he said. He asked those demonstrators to stop their activities and go home.
On the night of September 11, U.S. Ambassador Christopher Stevens was one of four Americans slain after a group assaulted the U.S. Consulate in the eastern Libyan city. Seen as the birthplace of the revolution that led to the death of longtime Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, Benghazi has in recent months been beset by security issues. Initial reports indicated that, ahead of the consular attack, Ansar al-Sharia had organized a protest to decry an inflammatory film that mocks the Prophet Mohammed and also protest the United States, where the film was privately produced.
On Thursday, Libyan Prime Minister Mustafa Abushagur said eight detained in connection with that assault include members of Ansar al-Sharia, though he added that not all the attackers came from one specific group.
Responding to the report from Benghazi, U.S. Sen. John McCain applauded the citizens' efforts Friday and said it represented the true, freedom-loving Libya that he and other U.S. officials involved in the country knew.
"Somewhere Chris Stevens is smiling," the Arizona Republican said. "This is what we knew ... about Libya."




Do you conceed now, sir?

Yes I stand corrected.

But I'm still skeptical of American sympathies in most Mid-East nations that elect Muslim extremist into power. Hopefully more Muslims will stand up to the Jihadists. It really reflects better on their religion when the rest distance themselves from the hateful followers.

[Mandalore464]

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[Mandalore464]

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[Mandalore464]

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