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Old 10-14-2012, 08:28 PM   #676
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Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

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Yes and what they do(and say) is the equivalent of throwing gas on the fire while it's burning.

Once again logic makes no sense

I get a warning about something bad happening, but instead of trying to prevent it I do everything in my power to make it happen. Now would a perfect supreme being look on this positively or negatively? And if he looks at it positively, is that supreme being truly perfect?
Good point. If they want the apocalypse to happen so they can be raptured they are being greedy and disregarding the rest of the world who they should be trying to save. Jesus' message was salvation and spreading his word. Not poking holes in the ship and jumping into the life boat and saying **** the rest.

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Old 10-14-2012, 09:09 PM   #677
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You're trying to reason with people living in the 21st century, who look to Bronze Age mythology for law and science.

They're not reasonable.

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Old 10-14-2012, 09:34 PM   #678
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Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

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You're trying to reason with people living in the 21st century, who look to Bronze Age mythology for law and science.

They're not reasonable.
Or maybe they simply have different beliefs than you....My pastor loves science, and would probably love to discuss it with you....as long as you respected him enough to not talk down to him, simply because he has different beliefs than yourself.

With all of that said....we have a religion thread, discuss your opinions on religion and the people that follow it there....

As far as what is happening in the Middle East, it is more about power than land, with religion being the thing that people like to bring up so they can trash it...

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Old 10-14-2012, 09:40 PM   #679
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Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

I don't have beliefs. Not ones based in ancient religion, anyway.

You can not separate geopolitics from religion in that region of the world. People are basing policy on their religious beliefs.

Makes it rather hard to dance around the subject.

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Old 10-14-2012, 09:41 PM   #680
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Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

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I don't have beliefs. Not ones based in ancient religion, anyway.

You can not separate geopolitics from religion in that region of the world. People are basing policy on their religious beliefs.

Makes it rather hard to dance around.
Then try and do it without disrespecting others beliefs, no one is disrespecting you for your lack of ....

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Old 10-14-2012, 09:48 PM   #681
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Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

I'm not being disrespectful. I'm being plain-spoken.

I haven't said my opinion on religion either. And I don't, because I'm sure that wouldn't go over well.

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Old 10-14-2012, 10:04 PM   #682
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The land was occupied by another people, but not a sovereign country....before it was Israel, it was a British Mandate....

I'm probably going to get blasted for that....lol, but that is what it was at the time it was given to Israel.
Okay, but made British control over that area legitimate? The native tribes in North America didn't really have a modern sovereign nation state either, does that justify anything the European settlers did to the natives?

What about all the Eastern European countries the USSR went through to get to Nazi Germany in WWII, Poland wasn't a sovereign country after September 1939, does that mean the USSR had the right to do whatever it wanted to Poland after WWII?

Also Africa didn't really sovereign countries either in the pre colonial era, does that justify anything the European powers did in Africa?


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Old 10-14-2012, 11:17 PM   #683
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Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

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Also, for Catholics it's more like "The Jews HAVE to be in exile, because they rejected Jesus" and thus Israel is a theological challenge to their beliefs, which makes them uncomfortable.
Aren't there also Jews who believe the same thing (in regards to being in exile, not the Jesus part)? The ultra conservative ones that live in Iran & Jerusalem, I forget their name.

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Old 10-14-2012, 11:20 PM   #684
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Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

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The land was occupied by another people, but not a sovereign country....before it was Israel, it was a British Mandate....

I'm probably going to get blasted for that....lol, but that is what it was at the time it was given to Israel.
There was some pressure to give it to the Jews of Europe as well. It was not a unbiased decision.

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Old 10-14-2012, 11:23 PM   #685
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There was some pressure to give it to the Jews of Europe as well. It was not a unbiased decision.
Don't you know the British Royal family has ties to King David. lol

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...ark_prince.htm

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Since the antichrist will attempt to impersonate the messiah, he will have to claim to be a descendant of King David of the house of Judah. It would be virtually impossible for any Jew alive today to prove that they were descended from King David. However, the same cannot be said for Prince Charles. In "The Illustrious Lineage of the Royal House Of Britain" (First Published in 1902 by The Covenant Publishing Co., Ltd., London, England), the authors easily trace his lineage back to David and beyond. The College of Heralds (London) has also traced Prince Charles to be the 145th direct descendant of King David. This claim was also made in May of last year in a documentary on Israeli television. Charles also claims descent from Islam's false prophet Mohammed.

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Old 10-14-2012, 11:25 PM   #686
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Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Well you know, there is a reason the Jews went there. The Europeans and North Americans didn't exactly give them much choice.

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Old 10-14-2012, 11:31 PM   #687
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Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

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Don't you know the British Royal family has ties to King David. lol

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...ark_prince.htm

O...k

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Old 10-14-2012, 11:38 PM   #688
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Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

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Okay, but made British control over that area legitimate? The native tribes in North America didn't really have a modern sovereign nation state either, does that justify anything the European settlers did to the natives?

What about all the Eastern European countries the USSR went through to get to Nazi Germany in WWII, Poland wasn't a sovereign country after September 1939, does that mean the USSR had the right to do whatever it wanted to Poland after WWII?

Also Africa didn't really sovereign countries either in the pre colonial era, does that justify anything the European powers did in Africa?
After WW II, colonial history was altered, but the scars are still visibly everywhere.

Look at the Kurds. Their homeland stretches to about half of Turkey, a good chunk of Iran, Iraq, and Syria. They got nothing now. Their people were responsible for the end of the Crusades (Saladin), and fought bravely to stop the Mongol hordes from destroying the ME. Their thank you card from the colonial powers after the Ottomans was a unanimous F U.

The Afghans also have a nation, but half of their people are across the border in what was British NW Frontier. It was a nice F U from the British after losing to them in three wars and keep the Afghans divided.

The Bengalis fought for their own independence and got it from Pakistan, otherwise they wouldn't have anything left either.

The Baluchis are another nation that spans across, Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan and hugs the coast. They didn't get a nation either..so coastal dominance could be kept for the puppet monarchy of Iran and the invented nation of Pakistan.

These colonial mistakes are why there is so much turmoil in this powder keg region.

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Old 10-15-2012, 01:41 AM   #689
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Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

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Soooooooooo Mr. President, was the attack in Libya terrorism ooooooooor the movie????

Damn, those facts are a stubborn little thing aren't they Mr. President.....
QFT
I mean, the Libyan government was telling him that it was obviously pre-planned, and a US security official said he suspected something like this would happen if they didn't get security......
Yet it was the video and ONLY the video that caused the attacks.

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Old 10-15-2012, 03:33 AM   #690
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Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

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Originally Posted by Midnyte_Sun View Post
After WW II, colonial history was altered, but the scars are still visibly everywhere.

Look at the Kurds. Their homeland stretches to about half of Turkey, a good chunk of Iran, Iraq, and Syria. They got nothing now. Their people were responsible for the end of the Crusades (Saladin), and fought bravely to stop the Mongol hordes from destroying the ME. Their thank you card from the colonial powers after the Ottomans was a unanimous F U.

The Afghans also have a nation, but half of their people are across the border in what was British NW Frontier. It was a nice F U from the British after losing to them in three wars and keep the Afghans divided.

The Bengalis fought for their own independence and got it from Pakistan, otherwise they wouldn't have anything left either.

The Baluchis are another nation that spans across, Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan and hugs the coast. They didn't get a nation either..so coastal dominance could be kept for the puppet monarchy of Iran and the invented nation of Pakistan.

These colonial mistakes are why there is so much turmoil in this powder keg region.
Nah I think thats an excuse. Colonalism caused all sorts of problems but countries have formed and broken apart through out history.

There aren't really guarantees any nations on earth will stay together forever.

People learning to get along, form a cohesive nation or shared common values is down to the people ultimately.

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Old 10-15-2012, 07:18 AM   #691
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Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

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Okay, but made British control over that area legitimate? The native tribes in North America didn't really have a modern sovereign nation state either, does that justify anything the European settlers did to the natives?

What about all the Eastern European countries the USSR went through to get to Nazi Germany in WWII, Poland wasn't a sovereign country after September 1939, does that mean the USSR had the right to do whatever it wanted to Poland after WWII?

Also Africa didn't really sovereign countries either in the pre colonial era, does that justify anything the European powers did in Africa?
Well, if that is the case, then Canada is not legitimate, the US is not legitimate, all of central and south America is not legitimate....any area of Europe that was inhabited first by a group and then conquered is not legitimate, and I can go on if needed.....

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Old 10-15-2012, 07:21 AM   #692
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Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

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Aren't there also Jews who believe the same thing (in regards to being in exile, not the Jesus part)? The ultra conservative ones that live in Iran & Jerusalem, I forget their name.
They are Persian Jews, I believe they are called Parsims....or something similar to that. Most of them immigrated to the US.

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Old 10-15-2012, 09:07 AM   #693
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Well, if that is the case, then Canada is not legitimate, the US is not legitimate, all of central and south America is not legitimate....any area of Europe that was inhabited first by a group and then conquered is not legitimate, and I can go on if needed.....
I know that, but doesn't make the way the indigenousness populations were treated in those countries okay. Its not feasible to just give all of North America back to the Natives and have everyone who is not native move to Europe, but that doesn't justify the Trail of Tears or any of the other things that was done to Native population.

I just don't like that whole argument of "well they don't have real sovereign country, so its okay to take their land" because that can be used to justify all sorts unpleasant things through out history. I think Israel has better claim to their land then a lot of other countries do and I can sympathize with Israelis to a point, I don't blame them for wanting their own nation state after the Holocaust. But I don't think that justifies everything the Israelis have done to the Palestinians. If you see things from their perspective, they are being punished for Hitler's crimes, I can see how they would be unhappy to have their homes taken away because something that happened in Europe.

This isn't a black and white issue, its very much a gray issue, but we are not going to solve it by saying "the Palestinians didn't real state, therefore they have no right to self determination", that's a non starter.


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Old 10-15-2012, 11:49 AM   #694
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Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

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I know that, but doesn't make the way the indigenousness populations were treated in those countries okay. Its not feasible to just give all of North America back to the Natives and have everyone who is not native move to Europe, but that doesn't justify the Trail of Tears or any of the other things that was done to Native population.

I just don't like that whole argument of "well they don't have real sovereign country, so its okay to take their land" because that can be used to justify all sorts unpleasant things through out history. I think Israel has better claim to their land then a lot of other countries do and I can sympathize with Israelis to a point, I don't blame them for wanting their own nation state after the Holocaust. But I don't think that justifies everything the Israelis have done to the Palestinians. If you see things from their perspective, they are being punished for Hitler's crimes, I can see how they would be unhappy to have their homes taken away because something that happened in Europe.

This isn't a black and white issue, its very much a gray issue, but we are not going to solve it by saying "the Palestinians didn't real state, therefore they have no right to self determination", that's a non starter.
I can't argue with you on that one....I agree, I was simply stating the facts as we have them today.

I am probably one of the few Social Studies teachers out there that teach what happened to the Native Americans here as genocide....

The mediators in Israel that have mediated the talks between the Arabs and Jews have been trained to not allow the talks to who was there first...that is not the reality of the day.

NOW, do I think that the Israelis should stop any more building in areas that are occupied by majority Arabs....YES, that would be a wonderful first step.

I also wish that the Palestinians had agreed to the proposal set in 1948 for the city of Jerusalem....they had a heck of a lot more land back then.....

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Old 10-15-2012, 05:55 PM   #695
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They are Persian Jews, I believe they are called Parsims....or something similar to that. Most of them immigrated to the US.
I think he's think thinking of Neturei Karta, a splinter group from the Satmer group of Chasidim. They don't live in Iran, but they have connections to the Iranian government.

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Old 10-15-2012, 06:50 PM   #696
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Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

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Nah I think thats an excuse. Colonalism caused all sorts of problems but countries have formed and broken apart through out history.

There aren't really guarantees any nations on earth will stay together forever.

People learning to get along, form a cohesive nation or shared common values is down to the people ultimately.
Like Finland, Japan, or Denmark maybe? They have a majority ethnic group. America ethnically cleansed their rivals, and drove the Mexicans and Spanish out by force. Israel doesn't want the Palestinians back on their own lands because Zionists believe that is 'national suicide.' India and Pakistan murdered half a million people when their countries were made up. Common values exist usually through common ethnic makeup. The minorities have to be kept minor. There aren't many pluralistic nations that started out that way.

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Old 10-16-2012, 11:50 AM   #697
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To bring this back to the original topic, Hillary took the fall for the lack of knowledge in regards to those attacks in Libya or wherever. The ones Biden said they didn't know about.

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Old 10-16-2012, 11:54 AM   #698
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Yep....which tells me that she (Hillary Clinton) does not plan to run for President...EVER. She said that the buck stops with her as far as the Syria thing, so she just took a bullet for Obama.....

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Old 10-16-2012, 12:37 PM   #699
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Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

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Yep....which tells me that she (Hillary Clinton) does not plan to run for President...EVER. She said that the buck stops with her as far as the Syria thing, so she just took a bullet for Obama.....
It's such a shame. She's demonstrated her ability to lead and take the blame...far more presidential than passing it off.

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Old 10-16-2012, 01:10 PM   #700
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Yep....which tells me that she (Hillary Clinton) does not plan to run for President...EVER. She said that the buck stops with her as far as the Syria thing, so she just took a bullet for Obama.....
Tho a longshot her honesty could help her.

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