The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > SHH Community > Politics

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-18-2012, 04:52 AM   #751
Smashlilman
Ouch!!!!
 
Smashlilman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,785
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by hippie_hunter View Post
It's hard to feel a lot of sympathy IMO for what's going on because with Hamas and Likud in power, there will never be peace in Israel and the Palestinians. And to make it even worse, these parties were democratically elected by their people so it's like they were asking for this to happen.
It's like the Hard Right Wingers feed off each others madness and it results in constant violence.

I'm getting to the point that I don't care any more. I feel like there's no hope what so ever for peace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
And if they started murdering / imprisoning / persecuting every Swiss person outside of Switzerland, where do you think most of the Swiss diaspora would go?

You all do realize that there were already Jews living there, right? Who had been there... since Biblical days.

It wasn't like in the 1940's all the Jews got together and said "hey, let's go to our ancestors' old stomping ground!
"
Couldn't you say the same thing for the Palestinians? Shouldn't the Jewish and Palestinians families that have been living there for thousands of years still be able to live there.

__________________
Quote:
What is the most indestructable thing in the avengers? Ironman's suit, Captain America's Shield, or Thor's Hammer? The correct answer is Hulk's Pants

Loki: i have an army
Tony Stark: we have a hulk!
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Last edited by Smashlilman; 11-18-2012 at 04:58 AM.
Smashlilman is online now  
Old 11-18-2012, 05:05 AM   #752
Marvolo
Side-Kick
 
Marvolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,164
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
And if they started murdering / imprisoning / persecuting every Swiss person outside of Switzerland, where do you think most of the Swiss diaspora would go?

You all do realize that there were already Jews living there, right? Who had been there... since Biblical days.

It wasn't like in the 1940's all the Jews got together and said "hey, let's go to our ancestors' old stomping ground!"
Exactly so why did the jews need to run off the palestinians and have their own state? If they were already in palestine and had been for many years then they didnt need Isreal.

I heard all through bible doctrine studies that the re-formation of Isreal was a sign of the end of days and fillfilment of prophecy. Makes me wonder if that is the only reason america created isreal. To fulfill a prophecy. Ive always found it odd that a prophecy would need to be consciously fulfilled. Prophecy one would think would happen of its own volition spontaneously.

__________________
The Most Astounding Fact (Neil deGrasse Tyson, HD):
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson: A Fascinatingly Disturbing Thought
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Last edited by Marvolo; 11-18-2012 at 05:11 AM.
Marvolo is offline  
Old 11-18-2012, 05:10 AM   #753
Hawkingbird
I want to be Kate Bishop
 
Hawkingbird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: With the Hawkeyes
Posts: 5,733
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

It's creepy but there are Americans who want the end of the world to happen in Israel, so provoke attacks there!

__________________
"Turkey sucks and you suck, and who made you boss?"
Hawkingbird is offline  
Old 11-18-2012, 05:17 AM   #754
Smashlilman
Ouch!!!!
 
Smashlilman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,785
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkingbird View Post
It's creepy but there are Americans who want the end of the world to happen in Israel, so provoke attacks there!
The world will end on Dec. 21, 2012 and its caused by Nibiru and the Dark Star. The Mayans predicted it Damnit!!!

__________________
Quote:
What is the most indestructable thing in the avengers? Ironman's suit, Captain America's Shield, or Thor's Hammer? The correct answer is Hulk's Pants

Loki: i have an army
Tony Stark: we have a hulk!
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:
Smashlilman is online now  
Old 11-18-2012, 05:41 AM   #755
chamber-music
Hail Hydra
 
chamber-music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 23,552
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
And if they started murdering / imprisoning / persecuting every Swiss person outside of Switzerland, where do you think most of the Swiss diaspora would go?

You all do realize that there were already Jews living there, right? Who had been there... since Biblical days.

It wasn't like in the 1940's all the Jews got together and said "hey, let's go to our ancestors' old stomping ground!"
So what if they have been living their since biblical days?

Native Americans, Māori, Aborigional people and many other get dumped on in their ancestoral countries. They got treated terribly as well yet there aren't people bending over backwards for their 'rights' or 'claims'.

There is a difference between settling in a region and forming some manifest destiny state ideology where you boot palestinians who have also been living their since biblical times off the land.

__________________
King Of Strong Style
chamber-music is offline  
Old 11-18-2012, 06:35 AM   #756
Kelly
Hoity Toity Administrator
SHH! Administrator
 
Kelly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 57,831
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

There is a reason why mediators are told from the start in those negotiations...DO NOT LET THEM GO DOWN THE TRAIL OF "WHO WAS THEIR FIRST"....it doesn't go anywhere.

__________________
'Listen to yourself and in that quietude you might hear the voice of God'… Maya Angelou
Kelly is offline  
Old 11-18-2012, 09:02 AM   #757
Midnyte_Sun
Medianoche de Sol
 
Midnyte_Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 5,150
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
And if they started murdering / imprisoning / persecuting every Swiss person outside of Switzerland, where do you think most of the Swiss diaspora would go?

You all do realize that there were already Jews living there, right? Who had been there... since Biblical days.

It wasn't like in the 1940's all the Jews got together and said "hey, let's go to our ancestors' old stomping ground!"
The disproportionate majority of the Jews who came to the Levant, came from OUTSIDE of the British mandate of Palestine. There intent from the beginning was to create a colony by any means necessary, including terrorism, assassinations, and terror-related car bombs, the latter of which, they invented.


Last edited by Midnyte_Sun; 11-18-2012 at 11:15 AM.
Midnyte_Sun is offline  
Old 11-18-2012, 11:50 AM   #758
The Overlord
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,310
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
But you say that like they had other viable options.

They just came out of the worst genocide in human history. They couldn't be picky. There was already a sizable Jewish population in Palestine (and it's their ancestral homeland).

At the time it wasn't the most volatile and caustic places on earth. That place was Europe, which just tried to kill them (and even before the holocaust, it wasn't a pleasant place to live).

The world didn't give them a choice.
Yeah, but there is an argument that the most fair thing to do was to carve a Jewish state out of Germany, considering Germany was the country that caused the Holocaust is the first place. Didn't Europe create this problem and then try to pawn it off on the Palestinians so they wouldn't have to take responsbilty for it? I think the Palestianins might have a good reason to be unhappy, if they are being punished for Hitler's crimes.

The Overlord is online now  
Old 11-18-2012, 12:13 PM   #759
chamber-music
Hail Hydra
 
chamber-music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 23,552
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Well Germany has paid off reparations for both world wars already including agreed reperations to Israel. I'm not so sure modern germans should still have to pay for their parents, grandparents or freat grandparents actions.

Part of the reason modern german is into the whole save the EU/Eurozone thing is because of the national guilt still felt about the wars.

__________________
King Of Strong Style
chamber-music is offline  
Old 11-18-2012, 04:00 PM   #760
Kelly
Hoity Toity Administrator
SHH! Administrator
 
Kelly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 57,831
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
Yeah, but there is an argument that the most fair thing to do was to carve a Jewish state out of Germany, considering Germany was the country that caused the Holocaust is the first place. Didn't Europe create this problem and then try to pawn it off on the Palestinians so they wouldn't have to take responsbilty for it? I think the Palestianins might have a good reason to be unhappy, if they are being punished for Hitler's crimes.
But, that is not the "Promise Land"...
IMO....the Palestinians had their best bet at the very beginning and should have gone with the "Jerusalem as an International city" type of situation. And then might have been a good idea not to attack a stronger army than yours....and therefore lose more land.

At this point, going back to history is not going to work in this instance. The thing that SHOULD HAVE NEVER been allowed is the Jewish settlements across the green line. That ****ed everything up royally....

__________________
'Listen to yourself and in that quietude you might hear the voice of God'… Maya Angelou
Kelly is offline  
Old 11-18-2012, 04:15 PM   #761
Thundercrack85
Side-Kick
 
Thundercrack85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,803
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smashlilman View Post
Couldn't you say the same thing for the Palestinians? Shouldn't the Jewish and Palestinians families that have been living there for thousands of years still be able to live there.
Yes, you can. And I believe Palestinians should be allowed to live in Palestine. Hence the two state solution.

However that's never going to happen if Palestinians don't recognize Israel's right to exist.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvolo View Post
Exactly so why did the jews need to run off the palestinians and have their own state? If they were already in palestine and had been for many years then they didnt need Isreal.
The Palestinians and Jews were relatively good neighbors until the influx of Jewish refugees in the early 20th century.

By the 1940's, you had one of the top Palestinian leaders (Amin al-Husseini) trying to get Hitler to help him exterminate the Jews in Palestine. You can see why the Jews then wanted their own state separate from Palestine.

Thundercrack85 is online now  
Old 11-18-2012, 04:16 PM   #762
Thundercrack85
Side-Kick
 
Thundercrack85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,803
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by chamber-music View Post
Well Germany has paid off reparations for both world wars already including agreed reperations to Israel. I'm not so sure modern germans should still have to pay for their parents, grandparents or freat grandparents actions.

Part of the reason modern german is into the whole save the EU/Eurozone thing is because of the national guilt still felt about the wars.
Yes, yes they do.

The Jews should have asked for Bavaria.

Thundercrack85 is online now  
Old 11-18-2012, 05:43 PM   #763
The Overlord
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,310
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
But, that is not the "Promise Land"...
IMO....the Palestinians had their best bet at the very beginning and should have gone with the "Jerusalem as an International city" type of situation. And then might have been a good idea not to attack a stronger army than yours....and therefore lose more land.

At this point, going back to history is not going to work in this instance. The thing that SHOULD HAVE NEVER been allowed is the Jewish settlements across the green line. That ****ed everything up royally....
Its not the Promised Land, but isn't that more of a fair solution? Besides a state carved out of Germany would likely have meant better neighbors. Now its too late for that now, we have made our bed and we have to lay in it. Maybe its something we should have done after the war. You can make a case against it, the Nazi party rose to power in Germany because Germany lost power and territory after WWI, so perhaps creating a state out of Germany would have rekindled their resentiment. No solution to this problem would have been perfect.

But if one studies the original Zionist movement, it wasn't about creating a Jewish state in the Middle East, per say, it was about creating one anywhere. Theodor Herzl, one of the major founders of the modern Zionist movement, had an idea about creating a Jewsih state in Uganda, with that the Jewish state in Uganda that would be created with persmision from the Ugandian government and that the Jews that lived in the state would try to help the Ugandians with nation building and development. More of relationship based on Mutualism. So I don't think it was set in stone that a Jewish state had to be on "the Promised Land".

And I do think its naive to say the parties can just ignore history while going forward. No matter how you slice it, there are going to be some hard feelings on the part of some Palestianians that they had to give up their homes because something that happened in Europe. Now you can argue that the Palestinians should bow to pragmatism and simply but aside those feelings, but human emotions are not always logical. At one point in our lives, we have felt wronged and those feelings can over ride our judgment. Any peace deal between Israel and Palestine would have to very comprehensive, to avoid a future war. If the Palestianians would give up their "right of return" I think the Israeli government should grant them compensation so they can better develop their own country.

The Overlord is online now  
Old 11-18-2012, 06:01 PM   #764
Kelly
Hoity Toity Administrator
SHH! Administrator
 
Kelly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 57,831
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

It's also naive to think that if their history keeps coming up, ANY kind of compromise will ever happen. It won't...

__________________
'Listen to yourself and in that quietude you might hear the voice of God'… Maya Angelou
Kelly is offline  
Old 11-18-2012, 06:29 PM   #765
Thundercrack85
Side-Kick
 
Thundercrack85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,803
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Part of the reason the Ugandan plan fell apart was because there was no sizable Jewish population in Uganda.

And given what happened with Idi Amin and the Indians in Uganda (he forced them all out, as well as other minorities), that wouldn't have been much a solution anyway.

Thundercrack85 is online now  
Old 11-18-2012, 07:17 PM   #766
JJJ's Ulcer
Old, cigar chompin' grump
 
JJJ's Ulcer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The pit of J Jonah Jameson's stomach.
Posts: 10,712
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Yeah, Amin's forces definitely would have slaughtered them. He took the Palestinian terrorist side when that hijacked Israeli plane landed on his air-strip.

There's no real incentive for Jews to care about Uganda either. It's not a holy land with the history of their people, it's a hostile African jungle climate. They wouldn't fight to preserve such a country.

JJJ's Ulcer is online now  
Old 11-18-2012, 07:38 PM   #767
Shemtov
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 3,867
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by chamber-music View Post
There is a difference between settling in a region and forming some manifest destiny state ideology where you boot palestinians who have also been living their since biblical times off the land.
No they didn't.
Let us look at the evidence:
1. Palestinians were told to flee by there own leaders, who wished ro preform Genocide.
As early as 1944, Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem said:
Quote:
Rise as one and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them.
During the war of 1948 Palestinian leaders spread false claims of a large-scale slaughter of Palestinians in an attempt to make Palestinians flee.
Tens of thousands of Arabs were ordered or bullied into leaving the city of Haifa on the Arab High Command’s instructions, despite strenuous Jewish efforts to persuade them to stay. Only days earlier, Tiberias’ 6,000-strong Arab community had been similarly forced out by its own leaders, against local Jewish wishes.
2. Jews asked Arabs too stay.
For example, The Histadrut, the Israeli labor union, published its own appeal to the Arab residents of Haifa:
Quote:
Do not destroy your homes ... and lose your sources of income and bring upon yourselves disaster by evacuation. The Haifa Workers Council and the Histadrut advise you for your own good to stay and return to your regular work
3. two quotes from Ben-Gurion

Quote:
We do not wish and do not need to expel Arabs and take their places. All our aspiration is built on the assumption – proven throughout all our activity in the Land [of Israel] – that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.
Quote:
n our state there will be non-Jews as well – and all of them will be equal citizens; equal in everything without exception; that is, the state will be their state as well. ... The attitude of the Jewish state to its Arab citizens will be an important factor – though not the only one – in building good neighborly relations with the Arab states. If the Arab citizen will feel at home in our state, and if his status will not be in the least different from that of the Jew, and perhaps better than the status of the Arab in an Arab state ... then Arab distrust will accordingly subside and a bridge to a Semitic, Jewish–Arab alliance, will be built.

Shemtov is offline  
Old 11-18-2012, 07:57 PM   #768
hippie_hunter
The King is Back!
SHH! Global Moderator
 
hippie_hunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Titanium Groceries
Posts: 51,427
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer View Post
Why do we so readily make excuses for Hamas, as if Israel is the only one that should know better? I actually agree that Israel and the Likud government in particular are heavy-handed in how they approach the Gaza situation (I'd prefer Kadima or Labour in power), but Hamas condones militants firing dozens of unaimed rockets into Israel proper every day. Even so they're treated like a child that doesn't know better by the same international community that criticizes Israel ("Oh that's just how Hamas is.... they're expected to be crazy and irresponsible, but YOU Israel we apply a different standard... so shame on you!"). Hamas also executes its own citizens for smoking hashish, so-called collaborators and political rivals (Fatah supporters). They direct hate and attention towards Israel to cover up their various shortcomings in quality-of-life issues, such as sanitation, affordable food and fuel, utilities, lack of education for girls, etc. They are a bane on the citizens they rule over. People should really watch this documentary about life in Gaza.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWJFC98jPrQ
Much like Likud, Hamas does not deserve any slack.

__________________
Titanium Groceries!!!
hippie_hunter is offline  
Old 11-18-2012, 08:01 PM   #769
Thundercrack85
Side-Kick
 
Thundercrack85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,803
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer View Post
Yeah, Amin's forces definitely would have slaughtered them. He took the Palestinian terrorist side when that hijacked Israeli plane landed on his air-strip.

There's no real incentive for Jews to care about Uganda either. It's not a holy land with the history of their people, it's a hostile African jungle climate. They wouldn't fight to preserve such a country.
Oh, definitely. It would have been the situation right now, all over again.

Though I will say that I'll take East Africa over North Africa any day. Some beautiful landscape there.

Thundercrack85 is online now  
Old 11-18-2012, 09:39 PM   #770
Shemtov
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 3,867
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
Oh, definitely. It would have been the situation right now, all over again.

Though I will say that I'll take East Africa over North Africa any day. Some beautiful landscape there.
Israel isn't in Africa. It's in Asia.

Shemtov is offline  
Old 11-18-2012, 09:39 PM   #771
redhawk23
Wrestlin'
 
redhawk23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: New Kemet
Posts: 13,589
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
Yes, you can. And I believe Palestinians should be allowed to live in Palestine. Hence the two state solution.

However that's never going to happen if Palestinians don't recognize Israel's right to exist.




The Palestinians and Jews were relatively good neighbors until the influx of Jewish refugees in the early 20th century.

By the 1940's, you had one of the top Palestinian leaders (Amin al-Husseini) trying to get Hitler to help him exterminate the Jews in Palestine. You can see why the Jews then wanted their own state separate from Palestine.
Nor will it happen as long as the United States has laws on the books to revoke support for any U.N. program that includes Palestine or recognizes it as a state.

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by James View Post
On my planet, the S stands for Sears.
redhawk23 is offline  
Old 11-18-2012, 09:45 PM   #772
Thundercrack85
Side-Kick
 
Thundercrack85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,803
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shemtov View Post
Israel isn't in Africa. It's in Asia.
It's the border between Asia and Africa.

Either way, give me East Africa any day.

Thundercrack85 is online now  
Old 11-18-2012, 09:49 PM   #773
The Overlord
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,310
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer View Post
Yeah, Amin's forces definitely would have slaughtered them. He took the Palestinian terrorist side when that hijacked Israeli plane landed on his air-strip.

There's no real incentive for Jews to care about Uganda either. It's not a holy land with the history of their people, it's a hostile African jungle climate. They wouldn't fight to preserve such a country.
Theodor Herzl died in 1904, before Amin was even born, I think Uganada was a better option in the late 19th century then it was in the 1970s. That's not my point, my point is of one the founders of the Zionist said you can have Jewish state be anywhere, then it didn't have to be the Holy Land per say. So then perhaps it would have been more fair to carve a Jewish state out of Germany after the war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
It's also naive to think that if their history keeps coming up, ANY kind of compromise will ever happen. It won't...
Hey in a completely rational world, we would have had a peace deal a long time ago. Everyone knows the path that is needed to achieve peace, but no one wants to take it. We don't live in rational world, especially when religious fundamentalism comes into play. We live in world where people don't always make the logical choice and history has shown when comes to historic grievances, people are often quick to anger and slow to forgive. A cycle of revenge doesn't make sense, that doesn't stop people from getting into one.


Last edited by The Overlord; 11-18-2012 at 10:03 PM.
The Overlord is online now  
Old 11-18-2012, 09:54 PM   #774
Thundercrack85
Side-Kick
 
Thundercrack85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,803
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

I really doubt anyone wanted to stay in Germany after the German people just tried to (and nearly succeeded) in murdering them all.

Not to mention the fact that Germany went through a few things between World War II and now.

Thundercrack85 is online now  
Old 11-18-2012, 09:55 PM   #775
Shemtov
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 3,867
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
It's the border between Asia and Africa.
Are you a time traveler from the 70s?
The border between Asia and Africa is the western end of the Sinai peninsula, around the Suez Canal. Which is in Egypt.

Shemtov is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:33 PM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.