Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

[Smashlilman]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

It's hard to feel a lot of sympathy IMO for what's going on because with Hamas and Likud in power, there will never be peace in Israel and the Palestinians. And to make it even worse, these parties were democratically elected by their people so it's like they were asking for this to happen.

It's like the Hard Right Wingers feed off each others madness and it results in constant violence.

I'm getting to the point that I don't care any more. I feel like there's no hope what so ever for peace.

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

And if they started murdering / imprisoning / persecuting every Swiss person outside of Switzerland, where do you think most of the Swiss diaspora would go?

You all do realize that there were already Jews living there, right? Who had been there... since Biblical days.

It wasn't like in the 1940's all the Jews got together and said "hey, let's go to our ancestors' old stomping ground!"

Couldn't you say the same thing for the Palestinians? Shouldn't the Jewish and Palestinians families that have been living there for thousands of years still be able to live there.

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

And if they started murdering / imprisoning / persecuting every Swiss person outside of Switzerland, where do you think most of the Swiss diaspora would go?

You all do realize that there were already Jews living there, right? Who had been there... since Biblical days.

It wasn't like in the 1940's all the Jews got together and said "hey, let's go to our ancestors' old stomping ground!"

Exactly so why did the jews need to run off the palestinians and have their own state? If they were already in palestine and had been for many years then they didnt need Isreal.

I heard all through bible doctrine studies that the re-formation of Isreal was a sign of the end of days and fillfilment of prophecy. Makes me wonder if that is the only reason america created isreal. To fulfill a prophecy. Ive always found it odd that a prophecy would need to be consciously fulfilled. Prophecy one would think would happen of its own volition spontaneously.

[Hawkingbird]

It's creepy but there are Americans who want the end of the world to happen in Israel, so provoke attacks there!

[Smashlilman]

Originally Posted by Hawkingbird

It's creepy but there are Americans who want the end of the world to happen in Israel, so provoke attacks there!

The world will end on Dec. 21, 2012 and its caused by Nibiru and the Dark Star. The Mayans predicted it Damnit!!!

[chamber-music]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

And if they started murdering / imprisoning / persecuting every Swiss person outside of Switzerland, where do you think most of the Swiss diaspora would go?

You all do realize that there were already Jews living there, right? Who had been there... since Biblical days.

It wasn't like in the 1940's all the Jews got together and said "hey, let's go to our ancestors' old stomping ground!"

So what if they have been living their since biblical days?

Native Americans, Māori, Aborigional people and many other get dumped on in their ancestoral countries. They got treated terribly as well yet there aren't people bending over backwards for their 'rights' or 'claims'.

There is a difference between settling in a region and forming some manifest destiny state ideology where you boot palestinians who have also been living their since biblical times off the land.

[Kelly]

There is a reason why mediators are told from the start in those negotiations...DO NOT LET THEM GO DOWN THE TRAIL OF "WHO WAS THEIR FIRST"....it doesn't go anywhere.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

And if they started murdering / imprisoning / persecuting every Swiss person outside of Switzerland, where do you think most of the Swiss diaspora would go?

You all do realize that there were already Jews living there, right? Who had been there... since Biblical days.

It wasn't like in the 1940's all the Jews got together and said "hey, let's go to our ancestors' old stomping ground!"

The disproportionate majority of the Jews who came to the Levant, came from OUTSIDE of the British mandate of Palestine. There intent from the beginning was to create a colony by any means necessary, including terrorism, assassinations, and terror-related car bombs, the latter of which, they invented.

[The Overlord]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

But you say that like they had other viable options.

They just came out of the worst genocide in human history. They couldn't be picky. There was already a sizable Jewish population in Palestine (and it's their ancestral homeland).

At the time it wasn't the most volatile and caustic places on earth. That place was Europe, which just tried to kill them (and even before the holocaust, it wasn't a pleasant place to live).

The world didn't give them a choice.

Yeah, but there is an argument that the most fair thing to do was to carve a Jewish state out of Germany, considering Germany was the country that caused the Holocaust is the first place. Didn't Europe create this problem and then try to pawn it off on the Palestinians so they wouldn't have to take responsbilty for it? I think the Palestianins might have a good reason to be unhappy, if they are being punished for Hitler's crimes.

[chamber-music]

Well Germany has paid off reparations for both world wars already including agreed reperations to Israel. I'm not so sure modern germans should still have to pay for their parents, grandparents or freat grandparents actions.

Part of the reason modern german is into the whole save the EU/Eurozone thing is because of the national guilt still felt about the wars.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by The Overlord

Yeah, but there is an argument that the most fair thing to do was to carve a Jewish state out of Germany, considering Germany was the country that caused the Holocaust is the first place. Didn't Europe create this problem and then try to pawn it off on the Palestinians so they wouldn't have to take responsbilty for it? I think the Palestianins might have a good reason to be unhappy, if they are being punished for Hitler's crimes.

But, that is not the "Promise Land"...
IMO....the Palestinians had their best bet at the very beginning and should have gone with the "Jerusalem as an International city" type of situation. And then might have been a good idea not to attack a stronger army than yours....and therefore lose more land.

At this point, going back to history is not going to work in this instance. The thing that SHOULD HAVE NEVER been allowed is the Jewish settlements across the green line. That ****ed everything up royally....

[Thundercrack85]

Originally Posted by Smashlilman

Couldn't you say the same thing for the Palestinians? Shouldn't the Jewish and Palestinians families that have been living there for thousands of years still be able to live there.

Yes, you can. And I believe Palestinians should be allowed to live in Palestine. Hence the two state solution.

However that's never going to happen if Palestinians don't recognize Israel's right to exist.

Originally Posted by Marvolo

Exactly so why did the jews need to run off the palestinians and have their own state? If they were already in palestine and had been for many years then they didnt need Isreal.

The Palestinians and Jews were relatively good neighbors until the influx of Jewish refugees in the early 20th century.

By the 1940's, you had one of the top Palestinian leaders (Amin al-Husseini) trying to get Hitler to help him exterminate the Jews in Palestine. You can see why the Jews then wanted their own state separate from Palestine.

[Thundercrack85]

Originally Posted by chamber-music

Well Germany has paid off reparations for both world wars already including agreed reperations to Israel. I'm not so sure modern germans should still have to pay for their parents, grandparents or freat grandparents actions.

Part of the reason modern german is into the whole save the EU/Eurozone thing is because of the national guilt still felt about the wars.

Yes, yes they do.

The Jews should have asked for Bavaria.

[The Overlord]

Originally Posted by Kelly

But, that is not the "Promise Land"...
IMO....the Palestinians had their best bet at the very beginning and should have gone with the "Jerusalem as an International city" type of situation. And then might have been a good idea not to attack a stronger army than yours....and therefore lose more land.

At this point, going back to history is not going to work in this instance. The thing that SHOULD HAVE NEVER been allowed is the Jewish settlements across the green line. That ****ed everything up royally....

Its not the Promised Land, but isn't that more of a fair solution? Besides a state carved out of Germany would likely have meant better neighbors. Now its too late for that now, we have made our bed and we have to lay in it. Maybe its something we should have done after the war. You can make a case against it, the Nazi party rose to power in Germany because Germany lost power and territory after WWI, so perhaps creating a state out of Germany would have rekindled their resentiment. No solution to this problem would have been perfect.

But if one studies the original Zionist movement, it wasn't about creating a Jewish state in the Middle East, per say, it was about creating one anywhere. Theodor Herzl, one of the major founders of the modern Zionist movement, had an idea about creating a Jewsih state in Uganda, with that the Jewish state in Uganda that would be created with persmision from the Ugandian government and that the Jews that lived in the state would try to help the Ugandians with nation building and development. More of relationship based on Mutualism. So I don't think it was set in stone that a Jewish state had to be on "the Promised Land".

And I do think its naive to say the parties can just ignore history while going forward. No matter how you slice it, there are going to be some hard feelings on the part of some Palestianians that they had to give up their homes because something that happened in Europe. Now you can argue that the Palestinians should bow to pragmatism and simply but aside those feelings, but human emotions are not always logical. At one point in our lives, we have felt wronged and those feelings can over ride our judgment. Any peace deal between Israel and Palestine would have to very comprehensive, to avoid a future war. If the Palestianians would give up their "right of return" I think the Israeli government should grant them compensation so they can better develop their own country.

[Kelly]

It's also naive to think that if their history keeps coming up, ANY kind of compromise will ever happen. It won't...

[Thundercrack85]

Part of the reason the Ugandan plan fell apart was because there was no sizable Jewish population in Uganda.

And given what happened with Idi Amin and the Indians in Uganda (he forced them all out, as well as other minorities), that wouldn't have been much a solution anyway.

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Yeah, Amin's forces definitely would have slaughtered them. He took the Palestinian terrorist side when that hijacked Israeli plane landed on his air-strip.

There's no real incentive for Jews to care about Uganda either. It's not a holy land with the history of their people, it's a hostile African jungle climate. They wouldn't fight to preserve such a country.

[Shemtov]

Originally Posted by chamber-music

There is a difference between settling in a region and forming some manifest destiny state ideology where you boot palestinians who have also been living their since biblical times off the land.

No they didn't.
Let us look at the evidence:
1. Palestinians were told to flee by there own leaders, who wished ro preform Genocide.
As early as 1944, Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem said:

Rise as one and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them.

During the war of 1948 Palestinian leaders spread false claims of a large-scale slaughter of Palestinians in an attempt to make Palestinians flee.
Tens of thousands of Arabs were ordered or bullied into leaving the city of Haifa on the Arab High Command’s instructions, despite strenuous Jewish efforts to persuade them to stay. Only days earlier, Tiberias’ 6,000-strong Arab community had been similarly forced out by its own leaders, against local Jewish wishes.
2. Jews asked Arabs too stay.
For example, The Histadrut, the Israeli labor union, published its own appeal to the Arab residents of Haifa:

Do not destroy your homes ... and lose your sources of income and bring upon yourselves disaster by evacuation. The Haifa Workers Council and the Histadrut advise you for your own good to stay and return to your regular work

3. two quotes from Ben-Gurion

We do not wish and do not need to expel Arabs and take their places. All our aspiration is built on the assumption – proven throughout all our activity in the Land [of Israel] – that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.

n our state there will be non-Jews as well – and all of them will be equal citizens; equal in everything without exception; that is, the state will be their state as well. ... The attitude of the Jewish state to its Arab citizens will be an important factor – though not the only one – in building good neighborly relations with the Arab states. If the Arab citizen will feel at home in our state, and if his status will not be in the least different from that of the Jew, and perhaps better than the status of the Arab in an Arab state ... then Arab distrust will accordingly subside and a bridge to a Semitic, Jewish–Arab alliance, will be built.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer

Why do we so readily make excuses for Hamas, as if Israel is the only one that should know better? I actually agree that Israel and the Likud government in particular are heavy-handed in how they approach the Gaza situation (I'd prefer Kadima or Labour in power), but Hamas condones militants firing dozens of unaimed rockets into Israel proper every day. Even so they're treated like a child that doesn't know better by the same international community that criticizes Israel ("Oh that's just how Hamas is.... they're expected to be crazy and irresponsible, but YOU Israel we apply a different standard... so shame on you!"). Hamas also executes its own citizens for smoking hashish, so-called collaborators and political rivals (Fatah supporters). They direct hate and attention towards Israel to cover up their various shortcomings in quality-of-life issues, such as sanitation, affordable food and fuel, utilities, lack of education for girls, etc. They are a bane on the citizens they rule over. People should really watch this documentary about life in Gaza.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWJFC98jPrQ

Much like Likud, Hamas does not deserve any slack.

[Thundercrack85]

Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer

Yeah, Amin's forces definitely would have slaughtered them. He took the Palestinian terrorist side when that hijacked Israeli plane landed on his air-strip.

There's no real incentive for Jews to care about Uganda either. It's not a holy land with the history of their people, it's a hostile African jungle climate. They wouldn't fight to preserve such a country.

Oh, definitely. It would have been the situation right now, all over again.

Though I will say that I'll take East Africa over North Africa any day. Some beautiful landscape there.

[Shemtov]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

Oh, definitely. It would have been the situation right now, all over again.

Though I will say that I'll take East Africa over North Africa any day. Some beautiful landscape there.

Israel isn't in Africa. It's in Asia.

[redhawk23]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

Yes, you can. And I believe Palestinians should be allowed to live in Palestine. Hence the two state solution.

However that's never going to happen if Palestinians don't recognize Israel's right to exist.




The Palestinians and Jews were relatively good neighbors until the influx of Jewish refugees in the early 20th century.

By the 1940's, you had one of the top Palestinian leaders (Amin al-Husseini) trying to get Hitler to help him exterminate the Jews in Palestine. You can see why the Jews then wanted their own state separate from Palestine.

Nor will it happen as long as the United States has laws on the books to revoke support for any U.N. program that includes Palestine or recognizes it as a state.

[Thundercrack85]

Originally Posted by Shemtov

Israel isn't in Africa. It's in Asia.

It's the border between Asia and Africa.

Either way, give me East Africa any day.

[The Overlord]

Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer

Yeah, Amin's forces definitely would have slaughtered them. He took the Palestinian terrorist side when that hijacked Israeli plane landed on his air-strip.

There's no real incentive for Jews to care about Uganda either. It's not a holy land with the history of their people, it's a hostile African jungle climate. They wouldn't fight to preserve such a country.

Theodor Herzl died in 1904, before Amin was even born, I think Uganada was a better option in the late 19th century then it was in the 1970s. That's not my point, my point is of one the founders of the Zionist said you can have Jewish state be anywhere, then it didn't have to be the Holy Land per say. So then perhaps it would have been more fair to carve a Jewish state out of Germany after the war.

Originally Posted by Kelly

It's also naive to think that if their history keeps coming up, ANY kind of compromise will ever happen. It won't...

Hey in a completely rational world, we would have had a peace deal a long time ago. Everyone knows the path that is needed to achieve peace, but no one wants to take it. We don't live in rational world, especially when religious fundamentalism comes into play. We live in world where people don't always make the logical choice and history has shown when comes to historic grievances, people are often quick to anger and slow to forgive. A cycle of revenge doesn't make sense, that doesn't stop people from getting into one.

[Thundercrack85]

I really doubt anyone wanted to stay in Germany after the German people just tried to (and nearly succeeded) in murdering them all.

Not to mention the fact that Germany went through a few things between World War II and now.

[Shemtov]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

It's the border between Asia and Africa.

Are you a time traveler from the 70s?
The border between Asia and Africa is the western end of the Sinai peninsula, around the Suez Canal. Which is in Egypt.