Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

[Shemtov]

Originally Posted by Hobgoblin

I did a project in school two years ago regarding how to interact with minority groups in a library and my group studied Orthodox Jews, as suggested by a woman in the group who was herself Orthodox. Doing my research, I found this video. It fascinated me then and it still does.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Basically, s Compi said, it's only small sect of Orthodox Judaism clled Satmar, nd especially the sub-group Neturei Karta whose only reason for not liking Israel is because the state is run by the Non-Orthodox, nd therefore whatever bad is said about Israel must be true. There's also some bd feelings over the Fact tht in it's early history, Israel forced some people not too be Orthodox.

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by Hobgoblin

I did a project in school two years ago regarding how to interact with minority groups in a library and my group studied Orthodox Jews, as suggested by a woman in the group who was herself Orthodox. Doing my research, I found this video. It fascinated me then and it still does.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Interesting video. Thank you for posting. I had no idea a faction of jews existed that opposed the state of isreal.

[Hobgoblin]

Originally Posted by Shemtov

Basically, s Compi said, it's only small sect of Orthodox Judaism clled Satmar, nd especially the sub-group Neturei Karta whose only reason for not liking Israel is because the state is run by the Non-Orthodox, nd therefore whatever bad is said about Israel must be true. There's also some bd feelings over the Fact tht in it's early history, Israel forced some people not too be Orthodox.

Interesting. Thank you.

[Dr. Evil]

Why is this no talent hack in the Middle East?

http://news.yahoo.com/protests-flare...185543956.html

[Hobgoblin]

Let's look on the bright side: People that follow Kim K. so closely might actually learn that there is a country called Bahrain.

[Smashlilman]

Originally Posted by Marvolo

Yes, because citizenship is a fair trade for genocide, destruction of a way of life, and the destruction of multiple cultures. Even today, the native american situation in this country isnt all candy canes and lollipops.

Was it a fair trade? Hell no! It was just the start of trying to make things better. Citizenship gives them the ability to operate with in the frame work of the country. Without it they would have just been confined to the tribal areas and would have had absolutely no say or voice form within the US government. Now at least they have all the same legal rights as every other American.

[Shemtov]

Originally Posted by redhawk23

Do you support giving back Manhattan to the Native American tribes currently attempting to sue to get their property back? Their claim to the land is far more recent and has changed hands far less times.

Manhattan was sold for 60 guilders. Judea ws taken from the Jews by invading Roman armies.
Which ws my main point: the claim tht Israel should give bck land tht the "colonized" nd "stole" from the "original owners" - the Palestinians, is self-defeating as history shows tht the "original owners" were the Jews nd the Palestinians's only claim to the land is thru migrating to the land tht ws stolen from the Jews, nd colonized by the Romans.

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_

Yeah, but, again. These stories are bogus.

They never happened, period.

At best they're retellings of other religions simply with Jews swapped in for whatever nomadic peoples they adapted the story from.

None of that is disputed, even in religion departments.

But....that doesn't matter when you releize tht Compi ws replying to incorrect info you said bout what the Bible says. Whether or not it's true does not matter in this conversation, as he was correcting a statement that you made bout what the Bible says. Also, you were the one who brought up the bible, nd the misinformation you claimed bout wht it says was obviously used by you to say "Even if the Bible was true Isreal would not be the Jews". Therefore he ws disproving that argument.

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_

So regardless of whether I was fuzzy in my details I'm not fuzzy on this. You're buying nonsense, and I'm sorry, policy should not ever be formulated around fairy tales. This isn't some pre-conceived slant either. Go find me the archeological evidence that this is the Jewish homeland. That's all that matters, not what it says it some book.

actually, to quote Wiki, (not the most accurate source, but still...) Bible Minimalist's archeological evidence shows tht it is the jewish Homeland more then anything said in the Bible. "The archaeological evidence of the largely indigenous origins of Israel in Canaan, not Egypt, is "overwhelming""

[Hawkingbird]

I'm quite naive when it comes to this subject, but am I right in saying that this conflict could spark WW3?

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Hawkingbird

I'm quite naive when it comes to this subject, but am I right in saying that this conflict could spark WW3?

Many Historians throughout the last few decades have looked closer at the Balkan Region. During the 90's this was a huge fear in that region.

I think as far as this situation is concerned, we should be far more concerned about what Turkey may do, than most anyone else. HAD the EU allowed Turkey in when it first asked, they would have a far greater influence, but they didn't. So, as of right now, I am looking far more at Turkey than anywhere else. We have also, totally stopped talking about, looking at, etc....Terrorist sleeper cells in the Muslim majority countries of the Balkan region. They for some reason, are EXTREMELY QUIET right now. Some, because they are now a part of the EU, and need to stay quiet...some are not.

One of the last times it was talked about was all the way back in 2010....

http://www.balkanstudies.org/blog/li...hotbed-balkans

I think once again, our attention is in the wrong place....

[Dr. Evil]

Originally Posted by Kelly

Many Historians throughout the last few decades have looked closer at the Balkan Region. During the 90's this was a huge fear in that region.

I think as far as this situation is concerned, we should be far more concerned about what Turkey may do, than most anyone else. HAD the EU allowed Turkey in when it first asked, they would have a far greater influence, but they didn't. So, as of right now, I am looking far more at Turkey than anywhere else. We have also, totally stopped talking about, looking at, etc....Terrorist sleeper cells in the Muslim majority countries of the Balkan region. They for some reason, are EXTREMELY QUIET right now. Some, because they are now a part of the EU, and need to stay quiet...some are not.

One of the last times it was talked about was all the way back in 2010....

http://www.balkanstudies.org/blog/li...hotbed-balkans

I think once again, our attention is in the wrong place....

If a Greece like situation emerges all over the Balkans, those sleeper cells will not be quiet for much longer.

[Hawkingbird]

Isn't Israel /Gaza where the nuclear weapons are though?

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Hawkingbird

Isn't Israel /Gaza where the nuclear weapons are though?

I'm not aware that Hamas has Nuclear weapons...Israel, yes....but I don't believe they will use those against Iran or anyone else for that matter.

[Midnyte_Sun]

UK and France summon Israeli envoys in settlements row

Britain and France have both summoned Israeli ambassadors in protest at Israel's decision to approve the construction of 3,000 new homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Netanyahu says, "We will carry on building in Jerusalem and in all the places that are on the map of Israel's strategic interests." About 500,000 Jews live in more than 100 settlements built since the occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. The settlements are considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20579248

--

The US had also advised Israel NOT to build these homes on land that would become part of a future Palestinian state. E1 will effectively split the West Bank.

[Kelly]

I cannot be sympathetic to Israel goes ahead with this.....this is ridiculous, and stupid on their part.

[Hawkingbird]

Explain why? (I'm not questioning your point, I'm planning on studying Politics as A-Level and I need to learn ).

[Kelly]

It there is going to be peace in this region, I have to say that my optimism is low, but if there is to be peace....then Israel has got to stop these settlements. These settlements are a HUGE negative in the peace talks, and it is something that they can STOP NOW. I understand how it would be hard to make those move that are already in these settlements, but to say they are going to continue is, IMO....simply a "hey you, go ahead, hit me.....go ahead....hit me, go ahead." So that they can hit back and it not look bad.

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by Kelly

It there is going to be peace in this region, I have to say that my optimism is low, but if there is to be peace....then Israel has got to stop these settlements. These settlements are a HUGE negative in the peace talks, and it is something that they can STOP NOW. I understand how it would be hard to make those move that are already in these settlements, but to say they are going to continue is, IMO....simply a "hey you, go ahead, hit me.....go ahead....hit me, go ahead." So that they can hit back and it not look bad.

It does seem that they are, at this point, giving everyone the finger and begging to be hit. They know they are going to stir up more trouble, they do NOT need to keep expanding, and they are ignoring Palastine's borders. Honestly, the US should be treating Isreal like any other country that is doing this stuff. We should sanction them or force them to stop. Personally, I think if we pulled all of our military support and stopped supplying them with defense weapons they would stop in a hurry. The Iron Dome system that protects Isreal from Hamas was funded by the US. Take that Dome away and lets see how quickly Isreal tries to get bombed again. They are like a little kid with a big friend. Always looking to pick a fight because they know the big friend has their back. Well this big friend is getting tired of their constant BS. Stop picking fights, Isreal. We will help you but if you keep stepping in your own **** then you are on your own.

[Thundercrack85]

Peace in the Middle East is a pipe dream.

Still, Israel is just going out of its way to aggravate the situation here.

Like a kid throwing a temper tantrum because he didn't get the candy at the check-out stand.

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

Peace in the Middle East is a pipe dream.

Still, Israel is just going out of its way to aggravate the situation here.

Like a kid throwing a temper tantrum because he didn't get the candy at the check-out stand.

Beat that kid's mother****ing ass.

[Fenrir]

Originally Posted by Marvolo

It does seem that they are, at this point, giving everyone the finger and begging to be hit. They know they are going to stir up more trouble, they do NOT need to keep expanding, and they are ignoring Palastine's borders. Honestly, the US should be treating Isreal like any other country that is doing this stuff. We should sanction them or force them to stop. Personally, I think if we pulled all of our military support and stopped supplying them with defense weapons they would stop in a hurry. The Iron Dome system that protects Isreal from Hamas was funded by the US. Take that Dome away and lets see how quickly Isreal tries to get bombed again. They are like a little kid with a big friend. Always looking to pick a fight because they know the big friend has their back. Well this big friend is getting tired of their constant BS. Stop picking fights, Isreal. We will help you but if you keep stepping in your own **** then you are on your own.

Americans should really read this academic paper:

mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/A0040.pdf

...now also a book:

http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Lobby-U...foreign+policy

Written by political scientists from the University of Chicago and Harvard University backed with impeccable evidence and documentation, the work essentially highlights how the power of the Israeli lobby (combined with the backing of right-wing neocons) in Washington has influenced U.S foreign policy in the Middle East that is more in the national interests of Israel than of the U.S. Heck, you saw it yourself during this election when American politicians shamelessly pandered to Israel with statements like Jerusalem will be the capital of Israel or that the Palestinians are an invented people.

The new settlements are essentially Israel's "F**k you" response to the world for upgrading Palestine's UN membership. Israel has become way too arrogant and overconfident because of its far-reaching hold on Washington that it thinks it can take any kind of unilateral action under the pretenses of self-defense and it is quickly losing allies and sympathizers all over the world.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Originally Posted by Fenrir

Americans should really read this academic paper:

mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/A0040.pdf

...now also a book:

http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Lobby-U...foreign+policy

Written by political scientists from the University of Chicago and Harvard University backed with impeccable evidence and documentation, the work essentially highlights how the power of the Israeli lobby (combined with the backing of right-wing neocons) in Washington has influenced U.S foreign policy in the Middle East that is more in the national interests of Israel than of the U.S. Heck, you saw it yourself during this election when American politicians shamelessly pandered to Israel with statements like Jerusalem will be the capital of Israel or that the Palestinians are an invented people.

The new settlements are essentially Israel's "F**k you" response to the world for upgrading Palestine's UN membership. Israel has become way too arrogant and overconfident because of its far-reaching hold on Washington that it thinks it can take any kind of unilateral action under the pretenses of self-defense and it is quickly losing allies and sympathizers all over the world.

I remember this. The Israelis lobby in the US worked very hard to discredit them and label them as Anti-Semites.

[Fenrir]

Originally Posted by Midnyte_Sun

I remember this. The Israelis lobby in the US worked very hard to discredit them and label them as Anti-Semites.

Yeah. The kind of accusations the Israeli lobby leveled at the authors kept reminding me of Jason Robards' line in All The President's Men: "All non-denial denials. They doubt our ancestry, but they don't say the story isn't accurate."

[chamber-music]

Originally Posted by Marvolo

It does seem that they are, at this point, giving everyone the finger and begging to be hit. They know they are going to stir up more trouble, they do NOT need to keep expanding, and they are ignoring Palastine's borders. Honestly, the US should be treating Isreal like any other country that is doing this stuff. We should sanction them or force them to stop. Personally, I think if we pulled all of our military support and stopped supplying them with defense weapons they would stop in a hurry. The Iron Dome system that protects Isreal from Hamas was funded by the US. Take that Dome away and lets see how quickly Isreal tries to get bombed again. They are like a little kid with a big friend. Always looking to pick a fight because they know the big friend has their back. Well this big friend is getting tired of their constant BS. Stop picking fights, Isreal. We will help you but if you keep stepping in your own **** then you are on your own.

The U.S won't pull the plug because of the Isreal lobby groups in capital hill, the millions of dollars in military contracts and the Jewish vote in the U.S.

Isreal knows the U.S has their back hell or high water and that the rest of the west may talk or pull an ambassador or two but they won't really do anything too serious.

All this does is annoy the Palestinians even more which is pretty dumb considering after what just happened.

[Hawkingbird]

I really don't think the dome should be taken away. Many lives would be lost.

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by Hawkingbird

I really don't think the dome should be taken away. Many lives would be lost.

Well then Israel needs to get their **** in order.