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Old 07-06-2011, 12:07 PM   #51
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Default Re: The Story.

if you think someone wanting to do good things without being motivated by guilt can only be one dimensional, then i'd question your imagination.

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Old 07-06-2011, 01:05 PM   #52
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if you think someone wanting to do good things without being motivated by guilt can only be one dimensional, then i'd question your imagination.
I don't think I said he was motivated by guilt, I think I put hope. However, someone just deciding to commit to being a hero without cause or reason is a dated concept and would leave the character lacking a lot. I think with the power he posseses, there's a chance he would struggle to use it safely especially when young and untrained and perhaps naive to the danger he potentially can be.
Also, why not provide him with all human emotions. He needs to be uphappy, scared, guilty, etc, otherwise there's no appreciation of being happy and hopeful, how can he try to provide & promote it without truly understanding it?

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Old 07-06-2011, 01:12 PM   #53
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Default Re: The Story.

I don't think they need to lay the guilt on thick. I'm gonna bring it up again, but I love that in Birthright the guilt Clark feels is rooted in his overwhelming desire to help those around him. He sees so much suffering and to remain inactive in the face of that suffering is too much for him to handle. He has to do something about it. That's all the guilt you need.

Now, that doesn't take away the story potential for temptation...

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Old 07-06-2011, 02:53 PM   #54
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I don't think I said he was motivated by guilt, I think I put hope. However, someone just deciding to commit to being a hero without cause or reason is a dated concept and would leave the character lacking a lot. I think with the power he posseses, there's a chance he would struggle to use it safely especially when young and untrained and perhaps naive to the danger he potentially can be.
Also, why not provide him with all human emotions. He needs to be uphappy, scared, guilty, etc, otherwise there's no appreciation of being happy and hopeful, how can he try to provide & promote it without truly understanding it?
its common sense that you'd have to be careful with such powers. it doesnt require hurting/killing someone to understand that. theres better way to present personal struggles.

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Old 07-06-2011, 03:37 PM   #55
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its common sense that you'd have to be careful with such powers. it doesnt require hurting/killing someone to understand that. theres better way to present personal struggles.
Yes, but common sense won't necessarily stop a person from making a mistake. In no way am i saying he should intend to hurt/kill but if you were so powerful, what would make you think twice about destroying An evil dangerous person? It's just a thought anyway.

In terms of the guilt..I'm not sure guilt over all the people he can't help is something he would initially feel. A lad from a small town probably couldn't comprehend all the people in the world he could help. Eventually, it would make sense though I agree.

I think there's so many things that haven't been used for superman and people are so worried that he'll lose something if anything is changed. Obviously, hugely drastic changes possibly would but my suggestions aren't that out there & definitely won't compromise the fundinentals of the character

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Old 07-06-2011, 03:55 PM   #56
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Superman does NOT need tragedy in his life to motivate him to do good and become Superman.

Also, Superman should NEVER, EVER kill someone, even if it's accidental early on in his career as Clark and/or Supes.

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Old 07-06-2011, 04:49 PM   #57
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Superman does NOT need tragedy in his life to motivate him to do good and become Superman.

Also, Superman should NEVER, EVER kill someone, even if it's accidental early on in his career as Clark and/or Supes.
Tragedy would not be the motivation to become what he becomes, but tragedy is part of life..it's especially part of life of a powerful person, actions have bigger consequences.

As for not killing someone accidentally whilst in the process of saving people, whilst young and unpracticed ...why not?? Why is it so wrong???

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Old 07-06-2011, 05:15 PM   #58
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- Both Spiderman and Batman have good movies in part because of it, it develops a character. It someone just gets up and decides to be a hero and be 100% good the character becomes incredibly one dimensional and the audience won't appreciate them (look at Superman Returns).

Batman and Spiderman being good movies has nothing to do with their motivations... they are just good movies, period.

As for the one dimensional thing... all I can say is that it's an incredibly boring way of looking at storytelling. To me, a characters depth isn't achieved by repeating a tired formula that audiences have enjoyed before... it's achieved by showing someone new.

Superman has an unusual strength of character, level of empathy and self confidence. Those are his 'human' gifts. And telling the story of how he got those gifts and how that empathy, strength and confidence lead to him becoming the world's greatest hero, is so far from one dimensional.

If you really can't see that, then I just don't think we are interested in the same type of characters or movies. I'd suggest you watch Transformers. It'd be more your cup of tea.

- He doesn't have to but if he did (and remember it wouldn't be because he wanted to, rather it be more an accidental consequence of the heroism he shows at the time) it would provide the character with a deeper understanding of why life is so important.

No it wouldn't IMO. If he accidentally killed someone while trying to be a hero, it'd make him want to stay away from people all together. Go somewhere he can be sure it'll never happen again. Protect people by staying away.

- It isn't guilt and grief that motivates him but it's a tent pole for why he'd never intentionally inflict pain and would find alternatives where possible.

You need a why? Superman needs a reason not to intentionally inflict pain? He can just be... you know... not a psycho?

- As i mentioned before the symbols he would associate himself with would be hope, i.e. he would be born of hope and he would intend his actions to inspire good.

I don't see how you can think an accidental death spurring him on would be him being born of hope


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I don't think I said he was motivated by guilt, I think I put hope. However, someone just deciding to commit to being a hero without cause or reason is a dated concept and would leave the character lacking a lot. I think with the power he posseses, there's a chance he would struggle to use it safely especially when young and untrained and perhaps naive to the danger he potentially can be.
Also, why not provide him with all human emotions. He needs to be uphappy, scared, guilty, etc, otherwise there's no appreciation of being happy and hopeful, how can he try to provide & promote it without truly understanding it?
Your quite right in one thing. It is 'dated' in a sense. Since it's been so long since a film had the imagination to do it.

No one is saying that he shouldn't have emotions, even negative onces. He's grown up human after all. You just don't need to make his 'story' a depressing angsty one.

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I don't think they need to lay the guilt on thick. I'm gonna bring it up again, but I love that in Birthright the guilt Clark feels is rooted in his overwhelming desire to help those around him. He sees so much suffering and to remain inactive in the face of that suffering is too much for him to handle. He has to do something about it. That's all the guilt you need.

Now, that doesn't take away the story potential for temptation...
Perfect IMO.

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Tragedy would not be the motivation to become what he becomes, but tragedy is part of life..it's especially part of life of a powerful person, actions have bigger consequences.

As for not killing someone accidentally whilst in the process of saving people, whilst young and unpracticed ...why not?? Why is it so wrong???
Because that, to me, sounds like a **** story.

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Old 07-06-2011, 05:29 PM   #59
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Default Re: The Story.

I don't know if this was asked, but; what Superman storylines do you think this film should be based if not influenced on? It seems from both the leaked "plot" and the set photos that we might be getting Superman For All Seasons meets Birthright; do you agree with this, or have different picks? Plus, Superman has been said will be relevant; what stories do you think would best reflect this? And it seems Zod is the only villain, with General Lane being possible as well; what are the best picked stories?

I'll be first. I do agree with For All Seasons and Birthright, because for one thing I love Birthright and don't understand why everyone hates it other than it was the first retold origin after Byrne's Man of Steel. I would also add Earth-One because of its realism, and how that added originality toward the endlessly retold origin story, which most likely will be the case here. For relevancy; the best stories are Superman #247 "Must There Be a Superman" and Superman: Peace on Earth. The first story had Superman questioned whether his acts of heroism were actually hindering society, making them too dependent on his abilities, and that was the first story on this theme before the likes of Watchmen and Kingdom Come. I could see this as a negetive downside for the world after Superman's debut to be explored. The second story is one where Superman counters a timeless issue rather than a policital one; in this case, world hunger. The film could take a cue by having Superman wonder if he should be just a super-firefighter/crime fighter, or rather fight for something because he can do it physically. A theme that can for for this young Superman as he is trying to find his footing.

As for Zod and General Lane; the recent stories of Last Son and the New Krypton saga best reflect the grounded bare essence of who and what Zod is, just as New Krypton and Superman: Secret Origin can do the same for General Lane: connecting Krypton's demise with Zod's plans for Earth, and General Lane's POV of Superman, Zod, and others of their kind and more as potential global threats.

One other story I would like to add: For Tomorrow, because I found that it made sense for Superman to wonder and take any action he could or think of taking in regards to if what happened to Krypton happened to Earth. And it looks like Lex Luthor isn't going to be in this (as far as we can tell) but if he was to be, the best one (along with For All Seasons) is Lex Luthor: Man of Steel.

And now, your turn.

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Old 07-06-2011, 05:34 PM   #60
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Default Re: The Story.

and if you really require tragedy in his background, wouldnt the death and destruction of his entire home world and heritage suffice? i mean, you know, that would kinda suck to deal with. it being impossible to connect with your roots. suffering a loss of self identity. not to mention the alienation he must feel everyday. the struggle he must endure to fit into a world that he's not really part of. the fear of being found out. the self consciousness he must feel when revealing himself to the world, even as a well intended hero. the pressure to live up to peoples expectations. the desire to help everyone knowing you cant.

you know....stuff like that....but maybe thats all too one dimensional and less interesting than accidentally killing someone.

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Old 07-06-2011, 05:48 PM   #61
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Whatís ironic about all of this, like someone else had just mentioned is that even though Superman isnít motivated by guilt or tragedy like Bruce Wayne or Peter Parker are, he still has a tragic past that haunts him at times throughout the course of his life.

Things like having lived most of his youth not knowing what he was or where he came from, and having the same mentality that most orphans/adopted children do on not knowing why their birth parents gave them up in the first place. To top it off, Clark lost his entire civilization, and he is essentially the last of his kind (or at least, the last sane person of his race).

I think one of the things that have differentiated Superman from the likes of other characters is that he is one of the few heroes that werenít motivated by the things listed above to do what he does. His ability to be inherently good and strive to sincerely help others out of his own good will IS what makes him special

I mean theyíre making Captain America into a film right now, which is likely to be received well and Steve Rogers wasnít motivated by guilt to be a hero either.

If some really feel the need for Superman to have some other reason for helping people, maybeÖ just maybe, itís because for Superman (from his perspective), when he helps people it makes him feel better about having the powers he has. I mean itís not that hard to believe that at some point in his youth, he may have hated having powers and thought of them as nothing but troublesome for him. Using his abilities for something more productive, along with helping those in need may actually be benefactor for him when it comes to that past mentality. Thatís just my honest opinion of course.

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Old 07-06-2011, 08:30 PM   #62
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I will throw in that I would love to see some "control" shown and/or discussed. JLU did it for three minutes and SV did it for like ten minutes (Clark hangover) but it's never really talked about or displayed how careful he has to be all the time in every single situation.

The guy could sneeze and cause a 10 car pile-up and the fact that he maintains this control while still doing all of the spectacular things he does is - to me - another aspect of his character that I think people simply don't think about because nobody ever puts it out there.

As I've said before, some of my favorite stories are those like Peace On Earth and Birthright because they show a side of frustration that arises from not being able to be everywhere, all the time. So I say if we can show some frustration, how about we also show some gracefulness he has to maintain on an almost daily, all the time basis in order to keep those around him safe and appear normal.

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Old 07-06-2011, 08:46 PM   #63
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Sounds as if they're adapting some of Birthright, which I think is a great idea. That story could be faithfully adapted to screen, like Watchmen, and be a huge success. I really think Waid was writing it as if he were scripting a new Superman movie.

The only other quality work done in recent years would be Geoff Johns' Secret Origin, which shares similarities with Birthright. I'd think that would be a great source to draw from as well, esp. for the younger Clark in high school stuff.

As far as villains go, we'd be looking at Metallo and Luthor, which I'd honestly prefer to Zod in this first film. To me, Zod's a big threat that is perfect for a sequel to show the stakes are getting higher for Superman.

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Old 07-06-2011, 08:48 PM   #64
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I will throw in that I would love to see some "control" shown and/or discussed. JLU did it for three minutes and SV did it for like ten minutes (Clark hangover) but it's never really talked about or displayed how careful he has to be all the time in every single situation.

The guy could sneeze and cause a 10 car pile-up and the fact that he maintains this control while still doing all of the spectacular things he does is - to me - another aspect of his character that I think people simply don't think about because nobody ever puts it out there.

As I've said before, some of my favorite stories are those like Peace On Earth and Birthright because they show a side of frustration that arises from not being able to be everywhere, all the time. So I say if we can show some frustration, how about we also show some gracefulness he has to maintain on an almost daily, all the time basis in order to keep those around him safe and appear normal.
True; also, there was one thing that I did like seeing in Daredevil (2003) that I wouldnít mind seeing played in MOS.

I think this was something that was played in the comics, but since weíre talking about control here, imagine if we were to see in MOS, where Clark couldnít control his superhearing and that there were times where he wakes up in the morning or other times even, where his hearing would go off and that he would hear so many cries for help at once, and that he wasnít sure as to which one to respond to first and all of that. That could provide for some great drama on screen, while further elaborating on what Superman said in SR, on how he always hears the world crying out for help (need of a savior figure).

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Old 07-06-2011, 09:57 PM   #65
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Sounds as if they're adapting some of Birthright, which I think is a great idea.
Fortunately, there has not been a single shred of information to suggest anything from Birthright is being "adapted" in MOS. Some rumors die hard.

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That story could be faithfully adapted to screen, like Watchmen, and be a huge success. I really think Waid was writing it as if he were scripting a new Superman movie.
If it were a direct to video anime, I would agree with you. A big screen adaptation of Birthright would be a real stinker and complete box office disaster. Birthright is best remembered as a failed attempt at Superman's origin, forgotten and discarded in the quarter bin, at your local comix shop.

I think MOS will go with a new origin story, completely unrelated to anything we have seen before in comics.
I'm sure we will all be pleasantly surprised with what they have in store for us!

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Old 07-06-2011, 10:34 PM   #66
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Fortunately, there has not been a single shred of information to suggest anything from Birthright is being "adapted" in MOS. Some rumors die hard.



If it were a direct to video anime, I would agree with you. A big screen adaptation of Birthright would be a real stinker and complete box office disaster. Birthright is best remembered as a failed attempt at Superman's origin, forgotten and discarded in the quarter bin, at your local comix shop.

I think MOS will go with a new origin story, completely unrelated to anything we have seen before in comics.
I'm sure we will all be pleasantly surprised with what they have in store for us!
You do understand that they could give us something we've never seen on film and still stay true to the source, right? I've seen your posts about getting rid of the boyscout image, and acting like you have to disregard the comics to do that, which you don't.

Why would you advocate abandoning the comics altogether?

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Old 07-06-2011, 11:19 PM   #67
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I don't think I said he was motivated by guilt, I think I put hope. However, someone just deciding to commit to being a hero without cause or reason is a dated concept and would leave the character lacking a lot. I think with the power he posseses, there's a chance he would struggle to use it safely especially when young and untrained and perhaps naive to the danger he potentially can be.
Also, why not provide him with all human emotions. He needs to be uphappy, scared, guilty, etc, otherwise there's no appreciation of being happy and hopeful, how can he try to provide & promote it without truly understanding it?
And it's a damn shame. Someone should change that.

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Old 07-06-2011, 11:30 PM   #68
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Wasn't there rumor or story details of young Clark Kent in Africa doing a reporting story before deciding to become Superman? That's taken from Birthright, and it's a good idea to use. Birthright's a good source to pull from, and the first five chapters are excellent.

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Old 07-06-2011, 11:55 PM   #69
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Even though he's in Africa as a reporter in the beginning of Birthright, he almost came off like a Peace Corps volunteer...which is a great thing. Altruism is what Superman is all about, and seeing a young Clark doing the right thing in a different place was part of what made Birthright so special.

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Old 07-06-2011, 11:59 PM   #70
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Even though he's in Africa as a reporter in the beginning of Birthright, he almost came off like a Peace Corps volunteer...which is a great thing. Altruism is what Superman is all about, and seeing a young Clark doing the right thing in a different place was part of what made Birthright so special.
Agreed.

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Old 07-07-2011, 12:01 AM   #71
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Default Re: The Story.

AntMan, the old TV series of Superman for an example, with George Reeves, character didn't out like the bumbling boyscout. It's time for Kent/Supes to graduate from that persona, and revert back to having a commanding persona.

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Old 07-07-2011, 12:05 AM   #72
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AntMan, the old TV series of Superman for an example, with George Reeves, character didn't out like the bumbling boyscout. It's time for Kent/Supes to graduate from that persona, and revert back to having a commanding persona.
The "Big Blue Boy Scout" is a Post-Crisis term and persona. It's basically an exaggerated version of Christopher Reeve's Superman, especially from STM. By the time of Superman II he had evolved into a sort of heroic Travis Bickle. It was all about Lois...they need to avoid that.

One thing Grant Morrison is doing in the new Action Comics and something I've long advocated is bringing back Superman as a social crusader. I think the main reason Superman is seen as so square is because they (Frank Miller and John Byrne especially) made him an establishment stooge. That needs to go.


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Old 07-07-2011, 12:05 AM   #73
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Superman having a commanding personality trait is a must, Clark Kent has to have a more subdued, introverted layer to him, something that doesn't draw attention to playing into the mild-mannered persona.

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Old 07-07-2011, 12:26 AM   #74
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Yeah, I love Christopher Reeve but his Clark was too over-the-top for me. Clark needs to be quiet, unsure, awkward, but not a klutz. Clark should be the type who goes unnoticed. Clark's most remarkable trait should be how at ease people are with him, and that is part of what makes him so good as a journalist.

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Old 07-07-2011, 12:30 AM   #75
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What I'm really hoping to see is that for the first time, we get to see a live action arc done properly where we see Superman having to earn the trust and love that he eventually gains from the public in this film.

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