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Old 07-07-2011, 11:47 PM   #101
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I would say to get rid of the cornball cheesiness that has permeated many of the performances thus far.

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Old 07-07-2011, 11:48 PM   #102
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That's not true. I just want to see a new take on the MOS, that's all.
Between black and white are many shades of gray.
Batman Begins was a new a take for Batman on film, but it was faithful to the source.

How exactly would you change Superman's personality into somthing it's never been before? He was a hard nosed character at first, and a hipster with emo tendencies in Earth One, so what would you do to his character that hasn't been done?

I don't care for Earth One BTW.

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Old 07-07-2011, 11:55 PM   #103
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The cornball factor. Surely you realize much of the general audience perceives him to be as such. It is not a case of misperception, the character just has that classic goody two-shoes, perfect smile, sorta vibe. In this day and age it's so foreign and comes off as two-dimensional.

Again, I would keep his core attributes that make him uniquely virtuous. But absolutely get rid of the callback to the overly friendly 50s superhero. Just play it straight.

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Old 07-08-2011, 12:08 AM   #104
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Yeah, core attributes is a must, but he also need to command respect like the George Reeves version. One thing I think is paramount is he needs to have internal conflict between his natural self(Krytonian) and his need to become more Human. There should be some solitude there... and that should be the source of vulnerbility. Not Kryptnite, Red Sun, power loss machine, etc.

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Old 07-08-2011, 02:26 AM   #105
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Why would Superman need a break from being who he is(Superman). If anything I would think he need a break from being Clark Kent... Kent is the sham. Having constantly pretend something he's not all day, everyday. Being Superman is a release.
Because Clark is the only way he can relate to most people on their level.

As for getting away from the Big Blue Boy Scout image as others have discussed, simple: bring back Superman as the hard-ass social crusader.

Before Superman was the "Man of Tomorrow" or the "Man of Steel" or the "Action Ace" or the "Metropolis Marvel" he was the "Champion of the Oppressed". They want a Superman that is not an establishment stooge? Go back to the rough and ready savage young Superman of the 1930's. Let him put slumlords and union busters in their place. Have him place justice above the law. Let the police chase him and shoot at him. Use a Randian Luthor as his foil. Make the film in part a real debate of altruism vs. egoism. Superman is about big issues, big parts of the human condition. It's what Siegel addressed in his early stories, and what Maggin wrote about in "Must there Be a Superman?". Mainly they need to stay away from the mistakes of the Reeve movies and L&C and Smallville where is whole motivation seems to be a woman. Superman should not be a heroic Travis Bickle.

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Old 07-08-2011, 02:43 AM   #106
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Default Re: The Story.

Exactly Kuro, you don't have to disregard the comics to get away from the boyscout image.

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Old 07-08-2011, 04:15 AM   #107
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Well one thing's for sure, I don't think a Golden Age interpretation of Superman's character would work with a majority of today's audience, since that's one of the main criticisms that I've read SR having by many fans, and it's harder for people to emphasize with someone like Golden Age Superman.

Personally, i always found it more realistic that the real man behind the suit and glasses was the man raised on the farm, and that the Reporter and Hero are just extensions that he's taken from his own personality and given them both a good little twist to differentiate the personas from others.

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Old 07-08-2011, 05:34 AM   #108
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Well one thing's for sure, I don't think a Golden Age interpretation of Superman's character would work with a majority of today's audience, since that's one of the main criticisms that I've read SR having by many fans, and it's harder for people to emphasize with someone like Golden Age Superman.

Personally, i always found it more realistic that the real man behind the suit and glasses was the man raised on the farm, and that the Reporter and Hero are just extensions that he's taken from his own personality and given them both a good little twist to differentiate the personas from others.
What I'm saying is that there was a harder edge Superman in the comics, so Snyder can draw from Golden Age Superman, if that what he's going for. I was specifically talking about the Superman persona, and not Clark. I fail to see how the Golden Age Superman persona was represented in SR.

As far as who is the real person? I agree that Clark on the farm is his true self.

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Old 07-08-2011, 05:44 AM   #109
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What I'm saying is that there was a harder edge Superman in the comics, so Snyder can draw from Golden Age Superman, if that what he's going for. I was specifically talking about the Superman persona, and not Clark. I fail to see how the Golden Age Superman persona was represented in SR.

As far as who is the real person? I agree that Clark on the farm is his true self.
I meant in the sense where the persona of Superman was treated (at least imho) as the real persona for the character.

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Old 07-08-2011, 05:47 AM   #110
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I meant in the sense where the persona of Superman was treated (at least imho) as the real persona for the character.
Ah, then we seem to agree.

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Old 07-08-2011, 05:51 AM   #111
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The cornball factor. Surely you realize much of the general audience perceives him to be as such. It is not a case of misperception, the character just has that classic goody two-shoes, perfect smile, sorta vibe. In this day and age it's so foreign and comes off as two-dimensional.

Again, I would keep his core attributes that make him uniquely virtuous. But absolutely get rid of the callback to the overly friendly 50s superhero. Just play it straight.
- No 'bearing teeth' smiliing and waving at the camera
- No lines like 'remember, statistically speaking, flying is still the safest way to travel'
- No saving cats from trees on the request of a little girl... Unless it's a tongue in cheek joke, and handled correctly
- No old fashioned romance I.e. If Superman and Lois are going to get it on, don't have em get all awkward and bashful and then walk slowly arm and arm to the bedroom... Make it steamy... It's Henry Cavill! He's sex on legs!
- No poetry reading in the middle of the most important romantic scene, and no phrases like 'the son becomes the father, the father the son'... They just make the film seem pretentious IMO and a cheesy as hell.
- Do not have the villain dance about the room smiling as he reveals his maniacle plan that makes no logical sense... Have him be actually threatening and half the past movies 'cheese' problems go away.
- Don't set it in the past and make it seem 'retro'
- Don't make the whole world an immediate Superman fan club... It's as cheesy and unrealistic as a musical if you do that. You may as well just have them break out into the song 'oh superman' and have a whole street randomly start dancing along to it.

That'd be a good start in getting rid of the corny I think

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Old 07-08-2011, 08:38 AM   #112
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Default Re: The Story.

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- No 'bearing teeth' smiliing and waving at the camera
- No lines like 'remember, statistically speaking, flying is still the safest way to travel'
- No saving cats from trees on the request of a little girl... Unless it's a tongue in cheek joke, and handled correctly
- No old fashioned romance I.e. If Superman and Lois are going to get it on, don't have em get all awkward and bashful and then walk slowly arm and arm to the bedroom... Make it steamy... It's Henry Cavill! He's sex on legs!
- No poetry reading in the middle of the most important romantic scene, and no phrases like 'the son becomes the father, the father the son'... They just make the film seem pretentious IMO and a cheesy as hell.
- Do not have the villain dance about the room smiling as he reveals his maniacle plan that makes no logical sense... Have him be actually threatening and half the past movies 'cheese' problems go away.
- Don't set it in the past and make it seem 'retro'
- Don't make the whole world an immediate Superman fan club... It's as cheesy and unrealistic as a musical if you do that. You may as well just have them break out into the song 'oh superman' and have a whole street randomly start dancing along to it.

That'd be a good start in getting rid of the corny I think
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Old 07-08-2011, 08:51 AM   #113
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Default Re: The Story.

Personally, i don't see why there should be a problem if they give a few winks to past incarnations (whether it be television series/animated series/theatrical films).

Just as long as they don't use those past incarnations as crutches for the film to stand on, then they should be fine.

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Old 07-08-2011, 09:05 AM   #114
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Default Re: The Story.

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The cornball factor. Surely you realize much of the general audience perceives him to be as such. It is not a case of misperception, the character just has that classic goody two-shoes, perfect smile, sorta vibe. In this day and age it's so foreign and comes off as two-dimensional.

Again, I would keep his core attributes that make him uniquely virtuous. But absolutely get rid of the callback to the overly friendly 50s superhero. Just play it straight.
- I agree, people will happily accept and identify with the character if he has more realistic personality, and that doesn't mean you have to disregard his core attributes

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Old 07-08-2011, 09:08 AM   #115
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Default Re: The Story.

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Personally, i don't see why there should be a problem if they give a few winks to past incarnations (whether it be television series/animated series/theatrical films).

Just as long as they don't use those past incarnations as crutches for the film to stand on, then they should be fine.
Things like that just make it feel cheap, IMO.

When rumours were around a few years ago that WB were remaking The Exorcist, they said that Linda Blair would have played Ellen Burstyn's part as Chris. That would've felt wrong. Then it was debunked to just a cameo, and even that felt off.

I think things should be a clean slate. No nods to the past. It would ruin the atmosphere.

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Old 07-08-2011, 09:41 AM   #116
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Default Re: The Story.

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I can't believe you hate the original movies..........We are enemies from this day forward.
I don't hate them. I'm not their biggest fan.

It's just STM is the type of cheese I find cringeworthy. The type you can tell people lapped up at the time, but just doesn't appeal to me at all.

And it makes the movies more difficult to enjoy. I still enjoy them, because they are Superman. Because I like Margot Kidder's Lois in places, and there are scenes I adore.

Every time SR did something that reminded me of that cheesyness (which was a lot), I cringed.

I just want a movie that doesn't make me roll my eyes, cringe, shift uncomfortably in my seat, cough to break the embarrassing awkwardness etc etc.

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Old 07-08-2011, 10:21 AM   #117
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Default Re: The Story.

I just finished Superman - For all seasons. Maybe the best Superman-story I've read, despite it being a very traditional story and also sorely lacking a super-villain and epic battles.
It really is a great read with its' dramatic, poetic and yet very down to earth writing-style. It has a rare maturity to it that I strongly hope will inspire the movie.
That's IF they base the reboot on some of the comic-books. Then this particular story I wouldnt mind if they drew huge inspiration from narrative-wise. It really has some interesting angles on the character, especially when the stories are told from different perspectives.

And BTW, that resent set-pic of the damaged buildings in Smallville definitely looks promising. It does look VERY much like it could be from that tornado-sequence. And what an interesting and exiting way to introduce Clark's first flight and rescue. But that may happen in Africa though.

But somehow mix together For all seasons and Birthright, then you have a great inspiration for the origin as well as the basis for the over-all narrative. Maybe use the modern take on the story from the first 3 issues of Birthright, but told with the maturity and writing-style of For all seasons. Then add a bigger picture as well as some edge and gi-normous action with the addition of Zod and I believe that would make for an epic and wonderful adventure.
A fitting counterpart to Nolan's own gritty Batman-adventure.

And lastly, they really have to keep the Kents alive. Having Clark go back to the Kent-farm once in a while really adds depth and dynamics to the story as well as a greater connection to Clark's "human" sides. It also makes for great contrast visually.
Here's hoping...

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Old 07-08-2011, 10:46 AM   #118
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Things like that just make it feel cheap, IMO.

When rumours were around a few years ago that WB were remaking The Exorcist, they said that Linda Blair would have played Ellen Burstyn's part as Chris. That would've felt wrong. Then it was debunked to just a cameo, and even that felt off.

I think things should be a clean slate. No nods to the past. It would ruin the atmosphere.
How so? I mean, granted, I'm not asking for the Williams Marching theme, Statistically speaking lines, or Lois fainting after her first save by Superman, but I've seen animated series give like a little nod (subtle, the type that a average viewer probably wouldn't pick up) to the past.

Snyder said that we shouldn't be a slave to the past films, and I agree with it, but it wouldn't be the biggest crime on the planet if they had one or two simple nod.

I mean, if one of the many headlines that featured Superman's first debut onto the scene had the words "caped wonder", would MOS forever be ruined? No, it wouldn't imho.

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Old 07-08-2011, 10:50 AM   #119
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I don't hate them. I'm not their biggest fan.

It's just STM is the type of cheese I find cringeworthy. The type you can tell people lapped up at the time, but just doesn't appeal to me at all.

And it makes the movies more difficult to enjoy. I still enjoy them, because they are Superman. Because I like Margot Kidder's Lois in places, and there are scenes I adore.

Every time SR did something that reminded me of that cheesyness (which was a lot), I cringed.

I just want a movie that doesn't make me roll my eyes, cringe, shift uncomfortably in my seat, cough to break the embarrassing awkwardness etc etc.
I get what you mean. But it was the 70's and all. Just pray that it doesn't bear any similarities to Superman III and IV, they were cheesier than I and II

But this movie is being written by Goyer.....so I'm expacting stuff like "If Superman doesn't do something, the nuclear bomb is gonna BLOW!!!"

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Old 07-08-2011, 10:54 AM   #120
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But this movie is being written by Goyer.....so I'm expacting stuff like "If Superman doesn't do something, the nuclear bomb is gonna BLOW!!!"
I still cringe from seeing that scene. When I first saw it, I could have sworn that the guy playing the old dude, must have been someone either important to the batman lore in some way, or just a good friend of Chris, or someone close to him, since I didn't think it'd be possible for a director to put something as cheesy as that into a film like Batman.lol

And I'm just hoping that Snyder avoids doing anything that resembles Michael Bay's "over the top drama" in this film as well. Seriously, if there's anything that I hate in a story, it's when the director tries to make something look cool or dramatic, when it really isn't or that it just doesn't fit at the given moment of the story.

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Old 07-08-2011, 11:03 AM   #121
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How so? I mean, granted, I'm not asking for the Williams Marching theme, Statistically speaking lines, or Lois fainting after her first save by Superman, but I've seen animated series give like a little nod (subtle, the type that a average viewer probably wouldn't pick up) to the past.

Snyder said that we shouldn't be a slave to the past films, and I agree with it, but it wouldn't be the biggest crime on the planet if they had one or two simple nod.

I mean, if one of the many headlines that featured Superman's first debut onto the scene had the words "caped wonder", would MOS forever be ruined? No, it wouldn't imho.
It would ruin the atmosphere because we are expecting something new. It would cheapen that experience if we saw relics of the past, that is meant to be unrelated.

Die Another Day was spoilt for me because they showed the old gadgets. Which was perceived as a nostalgic, but cheap joke.

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Old 07-08-2011, 11:04 AM   #122
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Default Re: The Story.

"It's just STM is the type of cheese I find cringeworthy. The type you can tell people lapped up at the time, but just doesn't appeal to me at all."


Actually the Smallville-part still works today. It's great and compelling drama despite Jeff East's slightly wooden perfomance, and together with the Superman-interview they're my favorite parts of STM today.

The rest can be somewhat cheesy at times I agree, espicially Hackman and his ridiculous accomplices.
Nevertheless Reeve still manages to save the entire thing from being too dated, even in that equally dated suit. That says alot about his performance.

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Old 07-08-2011, 11:08 AM   #123
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I still cringe from seeing that scene. When I first saw it, I could have sworn that the guy playing the old dude, must have been someone either important to the batman lore in some way, or just a good friend of Chris, or someone close to him, since I didn't think it'd be possible for a director to put something as cheesy as that into a film like Batman.lol

And I'm just hoping that Snyder avoids doing anything that resembles Michael Bay's "over the top drama" in this film as well. Seriously, if there's anything that I hate in a story, it's when the director tries to make something look cool or dramatic, when it really isn't or that it just doesn't fit at the given moment of the story.
Wasn't the old man in Superman II? I'm sure he was the control guy in the space station, where the astronauts are being attacked by Zod and co?

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Old 07-08-2011, 12:21 PM   #124
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I just finished Superman - For all seasons. Maybe the best Superman-story I've read, despite it being a very traditional story and also sorely lacking a super-villain and epic battles.
It really is a great read with its' dramatic, poetic and yet very down to earth writing-style. It has a rare maturity to it that I strongly hope will inspire the movie.
That's IF they base the reboot on some of the comic-books. Then this particular story I wouldnt mind if they drew huge inspiration from narrative-wise. It really has some interesting angles on the character, especially when the stories are told from different perspectives.

And BTW, that resent set-pic of the damaged buildings in Smallville definitely looks promising. It does look VERY much like it could be from that tornado-sequence. And what an interesting and exiting way to introduce Clark's first flight and rescue. But that may happen in Africa though.

But somehow mix together For all seasons and Birthright, then you have a great inspiration for the origin as well as the basis for the over-all narrative. Maybe use the modern take on the story from the first 3 issues of Birthright, but told with the maturity and writing-style of For all seasons. Then add a bigger picture as well as some edge and gi-normous action with the addition of Zod and I believe that would make for an epic and wonderful adventure.
A fitting counterpart to Nolan's own gritty Batman-adventure.

And lastly, they really have to keep the Kents alive. Having Clark go back to the Kent-farm once in a while really adds depth and dynamics to the story as well as a greater connection to Clark's "human" sides. It also makes for great contrast visually.
Here's hoping...
I can't stand Superman For All Seasons. I like Loeb okay, but Tim Sales art and his Jethro Bodine/Lil Abner/Lenny Clark Kent makes me sick. Superman is not an ignorant hayseed. The whole farmboy thing came from STM and the Byrne comics, as the original comics quickly got the Kents off the farm and into small town America. Jonathan Kent was less Uncle Jed and more like Howard Cunningham. Superman is NOT a farmboy from the sticks. I hate that interpretation and I think it's a big part of why people find Superman so lame and corny. And it's essential that the Kents die because when the Kents die, Superman learns there are limits to what he can do. It a much better lesson for him to learn than the wrongheaded idea someone presented earlier of him accidentally killing someone. Plus, when the Kents die so does the real Clark Kent, leaving only the Clark Kent that is an act. It makes Superman more alone and Superman needs to be somewhat lonely so as to counterbalance against how powerful he is.

I am not expecting them to get it right, however. He'll be Jethro Clark on the farm, and I'm sure they didn't hire Costner and Lane to bump them off.

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Old 07-08-2011, 12:30 PM   #125
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I can't stand Superman For All Seasons. I like Loeb okay, but Tim Sales art and his Jethro Bodine/Lil Abner/Lenny Clark Kent makes me sick. Superman is not an ignorant hayseed. The whole farmboy thing came from STM and the Byrne comics, as the original comics quickly got the Kents off the farm and into small town America. Jonathan Kent was less Uncle Jed and more like Howard Cunningham. Superman is NOT a farmboy from the sticks. I hate that interpretation and I think it's a big part of why people find Superman so lame and corny. And it's essential that the Kents die because when the Kents die, Superman learns there are limits to what he can do. It a much better lesson for him to learn than the wrongheaded idea someone presented earlier of him accidentally killing someone. Plus, when the Kents die so does the real Clark Kent, leaving only the Clark Kent that is an act. It makes Superman more alone and Superman needs to be somewhat lonely so as to counterbalance against how powerful he is.

I am not expecting them to get it right, however. He'll be Jethro Clark on the farm, and I'm sure they didn't hire Costner and Lane to bump them off.
How did you like the usage of the Kents in Birthright? I thought it was done okay.

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