Why is there still such a fuss over Idris Elba as Heimdall?

[SuperFerret]

Originally Posted by Arach Knight

I am not elevating anything to racism. I am witnessing it. There is a clear double standard. I love how you dodged all of my examples. Heimdall is fictional. Angelina Jolie played a real life mixed-ethnicity person. Where is your indignation for that? I don't see anyone caring about Fred Armisen playing Prince and Barack Obama, even though Armisen is not black. Also, the Marvel version of Thor has little to do with the actual Nordic myth. Who is to say that Marvel's Heimdall is even related to Sif? Loki isn't evil in Norse mythology (at least not until he aids in the murder of Balder) and he certainly isn't Thor's brother, not even his step brother. Why doesn't that upset you?

Heck, why aren't you upset that Thor is blond in this movie? In the myth, he is red headed. Loki is a Midgard giant in the myth, not a Frost Giant. Why isn't that annoying you? You are cherry-picking one inaccuracy, that has to do with race, and ignoring a host of other inaccuracies that have a greater impact on the character relationships. Also, if you can accept Thor and Loki as brothers in this film (inaccurate to the myth), even though Loki is really a BLUE Frost Giant, then why can't Heimdall be the black brother of a white Sif (assuming that Marvel's Heimdall is related to Sif)? Can't Heimdall be adopted/step just like Loki is to Thor? What does that tell you about your "indignation?" Are you concerned about faithfulness to the source or are you concerned about race?

For the record, I hate this modern globalist liberal agenda. I don't buy into the "global citizen" garbage that people are forcing down our throats as of late. I am happy to be an American. I think it is fine for people to love their heritage and to revere it and to embrace their ancestry for all that means. Be it slaves rising to freedom or ancient epic heroes. However, I take issue with selective indignation on an issue. If you hate inaccurate ethnic casting, don't just be upset when it comes to white characters. Be upset when it comes to any out of character casting. Call shenanigans on Ben Kingsley as Ghandi. Become livid at the thought of Jake Gyllenhaal playing an Arab. I am not upset by these ethnic inaccuracies, because I personally care more about better acting than accurate aesthetics. However, if you are concerned about accurate aesthetics and not the acting, then don't be a hypocrite.

Heimdall is more important than all of those people. Especially that douche Prince.

[SuperFerret]

Originally Posted by Franklin Richards

I see. Short on logic and long on opinion. I look forward to seeing your response to SuperFerret being portrayed by a Mongoose in the upcoming film.

SuperFerret is actually an amalgamation of all mustelids and related creatures, so I welcome the mongoose's portrayal. At least he's not Keanu Reeves.

Also, on matters such as this, opinion is more important than logic.

[Arach Knight]

Originally Posted by SuperFerret

Heimdall is more important than all of those people. Especially that douche Prince.

HAHAHA That is why you are always one of my favorite people, SF. You specialize in diffusing negative situations with an amazing level of charm and sarcasm.

[Arach Knight]

Originally Posted by The Morningstar

Ben Kingsly is actually half Indian

Duly noted. I retract my use of Ben Kingsley as an example and acknowledge the lack of due diligence to investigate his full heritage. My other examples still stand.

[SuperFerret]

I ooze charm and sarcasm, but I'm taking antibiotics to help.

[Franklin Richards]

Originally Posted by Arach Knight

I am not elevating anything to racism. I am witnessing it. There is a clear double standard. I love how you dodged all of my examples. Heimdall is fictional. Angelina Jolie played a real life mixed-ethnicity person. Where is your indignation for that? I don't see anyone caring about Fred Armisen playing Prince and Barack Obama, even though Armisen is not black. Also, the Marvel version of Thor has little to do with the actual Nordic myth. Who is to say that Marvel's Heimdall is even related to Sif? Loki isn't evil in Norse mythology (at least not until he aids in the murder of Balder) and he certainly isn't Thor's brother, not even his step brother. Why doesn't that upset you?

Heck, why aren't you upset that Thor is blond in this movie? In the myth, he is red headed. Loki is a Midgard giant in the myth, not a Frost Giant. Why isn't that annoying you? You are cherry-picking one inaccuracy, that has to do with race, and ignoring a host of other inaccuracies that have a greater impact on the character relationships. Also, if you can accept Thor and Loki as brothers in this film (inaccurate to the myth), even though Loki is really a BLUE Frost Giant, then why can't Heimdall be the black brother of a white Sif (assuming that Marvel's Heimdall is related to Sif)? Can't Heimdall be adopted/step just like Loki is to Thor? What does that tell you about your "indignation?" Are you concerned about faithfulness to the source or are you concerned about race?

For the record, I hate this modern globalist liberal agenda. I don't buy into the "global citizen" garbage that people are forcing down our throats as of late. I am happy to be an American. I think it is fine for people to love their heritage and to revere it and to embrace their ancestry for all that means. Be it slaves rising to freedom or ancient epic heroes. However, I take issue with selective indignation on an issue. If you hate inaccurate ethnic casting, don't just be upset when it comes to white characters. Be upset when it comes to any out of character casting. Call shenanigans on Ben Kingsley as Ghandi. Become livid at the thought of Jake Gyllenhaal playing an Arab. I am not upset by these ethnic inaccuracies, because I personally care more about better acting than accurate aesthetics. However, if you are concerned about accurate aesthetics and not the acting, then don't be a hypocrite.

I didn't reference your examples because we're talking about Heimdall. As a matter of fact I don't like those other examples either. Happy? Now can we get to the matter at hand?

Oh and were you here when I went on a tirade about the white guy playing a black guy in Spawn? OH wow! I guess you're not all seeing despite all the opinions you've forced onto me.

Now just for a moment let's say I agree with you that every example you've listed is unacceptable as well?


Now what do you have to say?

[weezerspider]

How the **** is chancing Black Panther's race different than changing Heimdall's? There are plenty of white Africans and white African tribes. If you change one character's race, you can change them all.

[SuperFerret]

A white guy played Spawn? There was another Spawn? People care about Spawn? Salmon swim upstream to Spawn?

[Franklin Richards]

Originally Posted by SuperFerret

A white guy played Spawn? There was another Spawn? People care about Spawn? Salmon swim upstream to Spawn?

Naw! A white guy played the black guy that screwed Spawn's wife. Talk about subtext.

[SuperFerret]

Oh. Nobody cares enough about Spawn to care enough about his supporting cast.

[The Morningstar]

Originally Posted by weezerspider

How the **** is chancing Black Panther's race different than changing Heimdall's? There are plenty of white Africans and white African tribes. If you change one character's race, you can change them all.

Um... no. It's not the same. At all.

[Microchip]

Why was this thread even made? NOBODY WAS TALKING ABOUT IT. It was a dead issue. And now it's been brought up again.

It's like if I went into Captain America's forum and made a thread "Where dem Swastikas" or made a thread here that goes "Helmet only in movie for one scene?!"

It's been done, it's been debated, it's time to move on.

[SuperFerret]

Your Join Date says June '08, but you seem like you're new to these parts.

At any rate, welcome to the Hype. Here's your club and your ticket. Go out into the storage closet and retrieve the equine corpse that you've been assigned. Have a good time.

[Arach Knight]

Originally Posted by Franklin Richards

I didn't reference your examples because we're talking about Heimdall. As a matter of fact I don't like those other examples either. Happy? Now can we get to the matter at hand?

Oh and were you here when I went on a tirade about the white guy playing a black guy in Spawn? OH wow! I guess you're not all seeing despite all the opinions you've forced onto me.

Now just for a moment let's say I agree with you that every example you've listed is unacceptable as well?


Now what do you have to say?

There would be nothing to say. Even though I do not care about ethnic changes (from white to Arab or from white to black etc) and you do, my only concern is about those that are hypocritical in their anger over the ethnic change with this casting decision. If you are not being hypocritical, then I have no qualm with your reason for being upset. And for the record, I thought the decision to make Terry into a white man was unimportant. Granted, it has since been admitted that it was racially motivated (the producers did not want people to think that Spawn was a "black" movie), the end result did not change the content of the story.

[chamber-music]

I'll put my two sense in. If you have seen Thor they make it clear that scandinavians worshipped the Asgardians as gods not that the Asgardians were scandinavian.

I can understand why if your a fan of the comics you would like the actor to be white like he is in the comics but if your trying to say he should be white because he was in the folklore/myths then it doesn't really make sense because in the mythology Thor didn't hang out in New Mexico drinking coffee.

Its weird complaing about one element such as Heimdalls race when so many other thinks don't sync with the mythology also.

In Norse myth Heimdall is described as “the whitest of the gods” although most scholars have translated that to “the brightest” the gods.

As for this whole Elba was cast as token black actor nonsense why people continue to refuse to believe Kenneth Branngh cast him because he wanted to work with him and thought he would be good for the role is beyond me are people really that cynical.

Branngh has cast black actors in orginally white roles many times notably Keanu Reeves and Denzel Washington as brothers in Much Ado About Nothing and with Adrian lester in Love's Labour's Lost. Color blinding casting is regular in Shakespearean Theatre in Britian which Branngh has a background in often color blind casts in he is movies too.

Heres an interview with Idris Elba directly about his casting
http://youtu.be/8vJfV7iks00

[Arach Knight]

Originally Posted by weezerspider

How the **** is chancing Black Panther's race different than changing Heimdall's? There are plenty of white Africans and white African tribes. If you change one character's race, you can change them all.

Black Panther is effectively a white guilt character in which an African people were left untouched by white colonialism and were thus allowed to advance, not only to match the rest of the world, but to to exceed it. The character is more or less an allegory for black determinism in an era where white political powers had colonized most of Africa and black Americans were battling for a modicum of agency in America. Hence, altering his ethnicity would actually change the ultimate meaning for both the character and the story.

Heimdall, even in the Norse myth, is not a worldly being. Show me Asgard on a globe or a world map. Skin color and ethnic affiliation do not matter. And to prove the point, you should really look into interpretatio graeca and interpretatio romana. Both the Greeks and the Romans believed so firmly in the supremacy of their own pantheon, that when they encountered a new culture with seemingly different gods, they found ways to equate the new culture's gods, with their own gods. For instance, Romans associated Thor with Mercury. The point is, that Greeks and Romans assumed that everyone worshiped the same gods, but that they saw said gods differently. Skin tone never mattered. There is nothing about Heidmall's skin tone that is integral to the character, just as it doesn't matter that Loki is a blue Frost Giant (though making him a Frost Giant and making him Thor's brother, does change the relationships and the story).

And for the record, white Africans is a bit of a misleading term. If you are thinking of South Africa, that population is not indigenous. It would be like assuming that America had white people historically speaking, when in fact the original population was an entirely different ethnic group. Then you have the fact that modern people are simply too racist to understand the old world. In ancient times, nationality and political organization had great importance. While ethnicity could be an issue in some cases, in most cases it was largely unimportant.

Hannibal of Carthage for instance, led a band of mercenaries that included dark and light Africans. If Rome conquered your land, you were considered Roman, regardless of ethnic affiliation. The only requirement was that you served the Roman army when needed. To that end, the categories we use to describe ancient peoples, do not reflect the way that ancient peoples used such appellations to describe themselves. Egyptians were Greek, Nubian, Negroid and Arab. Greeks were organized as city states, each keeping autonomy, but serving under a common banner.

If Black Panther was merely about an African super hero rather than being an allegory for race issues in modern times, I would absolutely agree with you. Heck, I would not be against an African super hero or heroes, that range in ethnic casting. I'd love to see an Arab African or a Mediterranean (sub category of Caucasoid) African.

[ArmsHeldOut]

I think it all comes down to personal preference, and racism has nothing to do with it. Whether a character is secondary or not, I think there's a desire among certain fans to see him/her portrayed as faithfully as possible. Heimdall is a white character based on a Viking God; and Elba doesn't look anything like that. It's really that simple. If a character, such as Jimmy Olsen or Perry White, for example, was portrayed as a female midget, it would certainly raise eyebrows. I know that's somewhat of an extreme, but it's pretty much the same mentality.

[The Morningstar]

Originally Posted by chamber-music

I'll put my two sense in. If you have seen Thor they make it clear that scandinavians worshipped the Asgardians as gods not that the Asgardians were scandinavian.

I can understand why if your a fan of the comics you would like the actor to be white like he is in the comics but if your trying to say he should be white because he was in the folklore/myths then it doesn't really make sense because in the mythology Thor didn't hang out in New Mexico drinking coffee.

Its weird complaing about one element such as Heimdalls race when so many other thinks don't sync with the mythology also.

In Norse myth Heimdall is described as “the whitest of the gods” although most scholars have translated that to “the brightest” the gods.

As for this whole Elba was cast as token black actor nonsense why people continue to refuse to believe Kenneth Branngh cast him because he wanted to work with him and thought he would be good for the role is beyond me are people really that cynical.

Branngh has cast black actors in orginally white roles many times notably Keanu Reeves and Denzel Washington as brothers in Much Ado About Nothing and with Adrian lester in Love's Labour's Lost. Color blinding casting is regular in Shakespearean Theatre in Britian which Branngh has a background in often color blind casts in he is movies too.

Heres an interview with Idris Elba directly about his casting
http://youtu.be/8vJfV7iks00

Man, that guy is so ****ing cool.

[ArmsHeldOut]

Originally Posted by Marvin

um, like blood and skin tone have any place with divine creatures.
that being said they are I believe aliens in this movie. Still look at loki, he's blue...or is he.

"Why is there still such a fuss over Idris Elba as Heimdall?"

because he looked like a giant golden fork.

Asgardians, although divine in nature, are not terribly different from regular people. They breed the same way and share genetic likeness with their parents and siblings.

As far as being alien, well yes, gods are technically extra terrestrials, and therefore alien. Loki is descended from Frost Giants, which is why he was originally blue complexioned..

[Arach Knight]

Originally Posted by ArmsHeldOut

I think it all comes down to personal preference, and racism has nothing to do with it. Whether a character is secondary or not, I think there's a desire among certain fans to see him/her portrayed as faithfully as possible. Heimdall is a white character based on a Viking God; and Elba doesn't look anything like that. It's really that simple. If a character, such as Jimmy Olsen or Perry White, for example, was portrayed as a female midget, it would certainly raise eyebrows. I know that's somewhat of an extreme, but it's pretty much the same mentality.

Is it really so bad? In the Spawn film, they replaced Chapel (a black male) with Priest (a white female). I was confused for about two seconds, then I went back to not caring because she was such a bad-ass character. And apparently, she made enough of an impact to where Chapel being Al's killer was retconned so that it was Jessica Priest. If gender or age or ethnicity are important to the character's actions, then don't change it. Otherwise, who cares? They have a 6 foot tall Australian playing a traditionally five foot Canadian. And I think that is fine. If it doesn't affect characterization, then it should not be that big of a deal unless you are the most ardent purist.

[The Morningstar]

Originally Posted by ArmsHeldOut

Asgardians, although divine in nature, are not terribly different from regular people. They breed the same way and share genetic likeness with their parents and siblings.

Not entirely true. As already mentioned... Sleipnir the Horse is Loki's child.

It's mythology. There is all kinds of ****ed up **** involved. Not as bad as Greek mythology, but, yea.

[Franklin Richards]

Were there any other black people?

[chamber-music]

I think some of the fans who are upset it is because they want him to look like the comic character which is understandable Elba even says so himself in interviews but there is a vocal minority who are complaining and not just because he doesn't look like his comic counterpart which does have a racist element.

I'm not saying its anyone on here but on some other internet sites it does exist. Alot of them have not even read the comics either because they complain about it not matching the mythology instead of the comics which is what the movie is based on.

[Arach Knight]

Originally Posted by ArmsHeldOut

Asgardians, although divine in nature, are not terribly different from regular people. They breed the same way and share genetic likeness with their parents and siblings.

Not even close. Heimdall was born from nine virgin mothers (which I don't even know the logistics on how you can be born one person from nine separate people). Odin's eight legged horse, Slepnir and the mighty Wolf that will slay him, Fenrir, are Loki's children. And Loki is a humanoid giant from Midgard. Also, the Midgard serpent, Jörmungandr, (circles the earth and kills Thor in Ragnarok) is also a child of Loki. So...most of Loki's children aren't even human, let alone humanoid, even though Loki is a humanoid. That is what makes the race debate even more ridiculous. A lot of the deities and children in the Norse pantheon are not even human or humanoid. We are projecting human ignorance and limited thought, onto fictional ethereal beings that are above race and human relations.

[chamber-music]

Originally Posted by Franklin Richards

Were there any other black people?

There are black, asian and I'm sure other races who are asgardians in the movie played by extras