A Song of Ice and Fire books

[Sawyer]

I really don't see how TV Renly was effeminate...

[Infinity9999x]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

I really don't see how TV Renly was effeminate...

He really wasn't that effeminate. He just seemed a weaker character. He seemed more like the spoiled younger brother that wanted his moment to shine. And I won't deny that I think book Renly went after the crown for those very same reasons, but he was able to hide it behind his charm, and the fact that he looked like a young Robert.

I just found TV Renly to seem like a much weaker man then book Renly came off. And part of me wondered if they did that to better fit their image of a gay man. Though I could be looking too much into it.

[Dangerman]

Does anyone think Tyrion will find Tysha again?

[Drizzle]

I've started re-reading the series from the beginning. I'm about 40 pages away from finishing the first book.

[Buford The Sly]

Originally Posted by Infinity9999x

So I just started reading these books a few weeks ago and I'm currently on Book 4. (I'm only about 100 pages in). But I had some questions about how you guys think the series might handle some events that have happened in the books. I'm going to put this stuff in spoilers just in case a tv show fan pops in.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Shae was a big one for me. I personally liked the way they handled Shae and Varys in terms of their relationship with Tyrion in the Tv Show much better then the book. I always found it odd that Tyrion in the book, being as smart as he was, fell for a girl like Shae who, in the book, seemed quite shallow and out for her own advancement. I'm interested to see how they'll handle her betrayal in the TV series. Or, in fact, if they'll have it happen at all. I'm thinking at this point they may just have her killed off. Varys I could see still giving damning evidence against Tyrion. He made it clear in the first season (just as he did in the book) To Ned that all he does he does for the good of the realm. That includes not saving people he may like.

Also, and this is another, book/TV comparison: How did people feel about the portrayal of Renly in the TV show? I had no qualms with him being gay, but the thing that bothered me is that they didn't make him more...how would I put this..."golden child" esque. He's described as a young Robert in the books. Tall, handsome, strong, and quite clever and easy to gather friends to his side. In retrospect (since I saw the tv show first) I was very dissappointed that they seemed to feel the need to make Renly a weaker character. The Renly in the tv series would never have been described as a young Robert, and he never struck me as one who would have inspired many to follow him. I found this annoying because it was almost as if the show felt the need to make Renly seem a weaker and more effeminate character to fit with him being gay, which I think is playing into pre-concieved sterotypes.

If

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Tyrion doesn't kill Shae.

There will be fan rioting. That whole sequence is IMO is the most emotional gut punch of ASOS. I thought it was up there with the RW because

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it shows the true hipocritcal nature of Tywin. Also Tyrion killing him is one of those moments where I don't know weather to cheer or weep. Heavy stuff.

I liked the show Renly. Different than the books? Sure. However Renly is kind of an "under-written" character. A lot of people think they know what he's like but we only ever get the external impression of him from other points of view. I didn't mind the liberties taken with him on the show at all.

[Buford The Sly]

Originally Posted by Dangerman

Does anyone think Tyrion will find Tysha again?

"Do you know where whores go?" -

[CrypticOne]

I finished ADWD last night. So....

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Jon Snow. Jamie. Stannis. And Daario are all dead. Correct?!

[Spidey-Bat]

Stannis isn't dead. GRRM released a chapter from The Winds of Winter and he's still alive.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

Did

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Jon's death seem pretty cut and dry no-way-around it? Cause it seems like him and Tyrion are fan favorites. I'd be afraid that killing either or both would alienate a large portion of the readership.

I'm near to finishing A Game of Thrones; how many more books into this series before the supernatural elements become much more noticeable?

[CrypticOne]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wooden Alligator

Did

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Jon's death seem pretty cut and dry no-way-around it? Cause it seems like him and Tyrion are fan favorites. I'd be afraid that killing either or both would alienate a large portion of the readership.

I'm near to finishing A Game of Thrones; how many more books into this series before the supernatural elements become much more noticeable?

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Yeah. He got shanked the hell up. Unless Melisandre put a shield around him or something. Because the way the chapter ends, "He never felt the forth..." Anything could have happened, but he will share something in common with Bran if he did survive.

[Crockett]

Originally Posted by CrypticOne

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Yeah. He got shanked the hell up. Unless Melisandre put a shield around him or something. Because the way the chapter ends, "He never felt the forth..." Anything could have happened, but he will share something in common with Bran if he did survive.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

My theory is Melisandre pulled a Mance Rayder/Rattleshirt on Jon which in that case another person died or he if he's actually dead and then he'd be revived by Melisandre, in any case I don't think he's gone for good, yes lots of characters die in the series but Jon feels very centric to the story. I personally believe in the prophesy that he's Azor Ahai reborn.

[CrypticOne]

Originally Posted by Crockett

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

My theory is Melisandre pulled a Mance Rayder/Rattleshirt on Jon which in that case another person died or he if he's actually dead and then he'd be revived by Melisandre, in any case I don't think he's gone for good, yes lots of characters die in the series but Jon feels very centric to the story. I personally believe in the prophesy that he's Azor Ahai reborn.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Why do you think Jon is Azor Ahai reborn?

[Crockett]

Originally Posted by CrypticOne

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Why do you think Jon is Azor Ahai reborn?

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I don't know really, I just mostly connect to that theory to another theory (and I've seen a lot of fans who share the same thought) that Lightbringer isn't suppose to be literal but a metaphorical for the Night's Watch, which would mean the lord commander of NW is the wielder.

"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night’s Watch, for this night and all nights to come."

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

The last chapter of ADWD the star heraldry of Ser Patrek covered in blood could be the red star bleeding. Bowen Marsh cried when his assassination happens and his tears fell on Jon and when Jon pulls the first dagger from his stomach the wound “smokes”. That could provide the prophesied words that AA will be reborn amidst of salt and smoke.

The first war when Night's Watch fought against the Others was called Battle of the Dawn.

AA's sacrifice of his wife Nissa Nissa could be the source of having no wife.

This is like a metaphorical interpretation of almost every element but at least it provide some interesting discussions.

[Oberon sexton]

also

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Also Azor Ahai was prophecized to be reborn from Aerys and Rhaella's bloodline. Jon is most likely Rhaegar's son.

[Buford The Sly]

Originally Posted by CrypticOne

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Why do you think Jon is Azor Ahai reborn?

Yeah what Crockett said.
Plus, I like the theory that

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Jon wargs into Ghost before his body dies. His body will be kept in one of those ice cells. I think it was the whole point of the prologue with Sixskins. There is also stuff in the House of the Undying about a pale man with blue lips at the head of an army or somthing like that.

[Drizzle]

Originally Posted by CrypticOne

I finished ADWD last night. So....

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Jon Snow. Jamie. Stannis. And Daario are all dead. Correct?!

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Jon's death seems a bit ambiguous, but the rest are alive.

[Oberon sexton]

"You Raped her, You murdered her. You killed her children."

That'll be the greatest thing to see when the show gets to that stage.

[El Bastardo]

Originally Posted by CrypticOne

I finished ADWD last night. So....

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Jon Snow. Jamie. Stannis. And Daario are all dead. Correct?!

A little late to the party, but no. Well, kind of yes and kind of no on the first one, but no to the rest. Though I'm not sure on the last one, but I don't remember thinking there was any confirmation.

Originally Posted by Spidey-Bat

Stannis isn't dead. GRRM released a chapter from The Winds of Winter and he's still alive.

The Theon chapter on the website doesn't necessarily need to be the "present." It could be taking place, chronologically, before Jon gets the letter. That said, I believe the letter is a bluff.

Originally Posted by CrypticOne

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Yeah. He got shanked the hell up. Unless Melisandre put a shield around him or something. Because the way the chapter ends, "He never felt the forth..." Anything could have happened, but he will share something in common with Bran if he did survive.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Reread the prologue. Also, this "assassination" does a good job of suggesting Jon is Azor Ahai, as Crockett has explained. Not to mention, in addition to the prologue and the prophecy, there's a potential link back to both one of Bran's dreams before he woke up out of the coma, as well as one of Dany's visions in the House of the Undying.

Per Bran's dream: he dreams of Jon at the Wall, growing cold. While I'm sure most people have always interpreted that as it being cold as **** there, Jon's body would also grow cold as he lay dying.

Per Dany's vision: she sees what amounts to the Wall, with a blue rose inside it, roughly paraphrased. I'd have to dig for the exact passage, but I'm pretty confident it's one of Dany's visions. This also gives the most credence to Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna - the blue rose being her "symbol." In the Wall meaning, to my view, the ice cells they have.

All of this together, I assume Jon "dies," in that his spirit/soul/what-have-you leaves his body and enters into Ghost for a time. That's the point of the prologue to ADwD. His body is stored in one of the ice cells and grows cold, bringing fruition to the Bran and Dany bits. Melisandre later resurrects Jon, whether it be with the Kiss of Life or some other means - or, heck, Bran might even be able to with the new role he's growing into - and his spirit/soul/what-have-you returns to his body from Ghost.

And if Jon truly is the son of Rhaegar, as there's so so so much evidence, and he's kept in an ice cell within the Wall, then in a way, that very much is waking a dragon from stone.

That's my take on it, at least. And Buford has a little more, which I've quoted for honorable mentions below.

Originally Posted by Buford The Sly

Yeah what Crockett said.
Plus, I like the theory that

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Jon wargs into Ghost before his body dies. His body will be kept in one of those ice cells. I think it was the whole point of the prologue with Sixskins. There is also stuff in the House of the Undying about a pale man with blue lips at the head of an army or somthing like that.

[Buford The Sly]

Originally Posted by Oberon sexton

"You Raped her, You murdered her. You killed her children."

That'll be the greatest thing to see when the show gets to that stage.

Book three is the definition of Epic. So much bad***ery after the RW.

[Infinity9999x]

I really enjoyed ADWD, but I have to say, at times I get annoyed by all the characters Martin introduces. For example, Quentin Martell.

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He's a POV character, we follow his journey to try and find Dany...only for him to die releasing the Dragons. Basically, the only big plot point in the overall story that he really contributed to was releasing the Dragons. Now, maybe his death has other influence down the road. But if it doesn't that character really was pointless.

[El Bastardo]

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I think "pointless" is far too strong a word. Something has to be pretty egregrious to be "pointless" in something like writing.

If Quentyn's views, and what we saw, were the same or very similar views to another POV character through whose viewpoint we saw the exact same events unfold, but who was a more important character, then I'd agree, the character and his chapters were pointless. But that isn't the case at all.

Through Quentyn we have, simply, a different point of view. At the very least, we gain some new insight into how his father operates. And of course his death will have influence down the road. How could it not? He was the prince of Dorne, whether he was in line for the seat of power or not.

He was Doran's attempt to throw in with Dany. Assuming Doran finds out that Quentyn is no more, or perhaps even without knowing, I assume Doran to throw in with Aegon VI, once it becomes known he's campaigning in Westeros.

[CrypticOne]

Originally Posted by El Bastardo

A little late to the party, but no. Well, kind of yes and kind of no on the first one, but no to the rest. Though I'm not sure on the last one, but I don't remember thinking there was any confirmation.


The Theon chapter on the website doesn't necessarily need to be the "present." It could be taking place, chronologically, before Jon gets the letter. That said, I believe the letter is a bluff.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Reread the prologue. Also, this "assassination" does a good job of suggesting Jon is Azor Ahai, as Crockett has explained. Not to mention, in addition to the prologue and the prophecy, there's a potential link back to both one of Bran's dreams before he woke up out of the coma, as well as one of Dany's visions in the House of the Undying.

Per Bran's dream: he dreams of Jon at the Wall, growing cold. While I'm sure most people have always interpreted that as it being cold as **** there, Jon's body would also grow cold as he lay dying.

Per Dany's vision: she sees what amounts to the Wall, with a blue rose inside it, roughly paraphrased. I'd have to dig for the exact passage, but I'm pretty confident it's one of Dany's visions. This also gives the most credence to Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna - the blue rose being her "symbol." In the Wall meaning, to my view, the ice cells they have.

All of this together, I assume Jon "dies," in that his spirit/soul/what-have-you leaves his body and enters into Ghost for a time. That's the point of the prologue to ADwD. His body is stored in one of the ice cells and grows cold, bringing fruition to the Bran and Dany bits. Melisandre later resurrects Jon, whether it be with the Kiss of Life or some other means - or, heck, Bran might even be able to with the new role he's growing into - and his spirit/soul/what-have-you returns to his body from Ghost.

And if Jon truly is the son of Rhaegar, as there's so so so much evidence, and he's kept in an ice cell within the Wall, then in a way, that very much is waking a dragon from stone.

That's my take on it, at least. And Buford has a little more, which I've quoted for honorable mentions below.

Thanks for clearing this all up for me.

[El Bastardo]

I hope it made sense!

But it's all speculation. There's potentially stuff I've missed, that might either strengthen or weaken my speculation, but I've never dug back through all the novels to really work it up. That stuff is just stuff I happened to remember.

[Infinity9999x]

Originally Posted by El Bastardo

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

I think "pointless" is far too strong a word. Something has to be pretty egregrious to be "pointless" in something like writing.

If Quentyn's views, and what we saw, were the same or very similar views to another POV character through whose viewpoint we saw the exact same events unfold, but who was a more important character, then I'd agree, the character and his chapters were pointless. But that isn't the case at all.

Through Quentyn we have, simply, a different point of view. At the very least, we gain some new insight into how his father operates. And of course his death will have influence down the road. How could it not? He was the prince of Dorne, whether he was in line for the seat of power or not.

He was Doran's attempt to throw in with Dany. Assuming Doran finds out that Quentyn is no more, or perhaps even without knowing, I assume Doran to throw in with Aegon VI, once it becomes known he's campaigning in Westeros.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Pointless may have been too strong a word. But basically, the view I'm coming from is, Martin has always had a lot of characters, but at this point many of them feel unneeded. I'm more interested in the main characters he's established, and unless Quentin's death leads to a bigger plot point later on in future books, he's a character that easily could have been excluded.

Martin is getting a little too self-indulgent in parts I feel. It's all very interesting, but at some point it gets too bloated. I compare it to Peter Jackson. King Kong wasn't a bad film (in my opinion) but it was far too bloated and went on much too long. Jackson has been getting worse with that ever since LOTR. It's not that what was in the film wasn't well done, it's just that with much of it I didn't feel it was needed. And Martin has been doing that. I think he could condense some of his stories.

Also, does anyone know how many books Martin plans on writing? I assumed seven simply because it ties in well with the theology presented in the books.

[El Bastardo]

Originally Posted by Infinity9999x

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Pointless may have been too strong a word. But basically, the view I'm coming from is, Martin has always had a lot of characters, but at this point many of them feel unneeded. I'm more interested in the main characters he's established, and unless Quentin's death leads to a bigger plot point later on in future books, he's a character that easily could have been excluded.

Martin is getting a little too self-indulgent in parts I feel. It's all very interesting, but at some point it gets too bloated. I compare it to Peter Jackson. King Kong wasn't a bad film (in my opinion) but it was far too bloated and went on much too long. Jackson has been getting worse with that ever since LOTR. It's not that what was in the film wasn't well done, it's just that with much of it I didn't feel it was needed. And Martin has been doing that. I think he could condense some of his stories.

Also, does anyone know how many books Martin plans on writing? I assumed seven simply because it ties in well with the theology presented in the books.

It's seven. The next book is The Winds of Winter and I believe the final book is titled A Dream of Spring.

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This isn't me telling you how you should feel about something - but just because you think it's unneeded doesn't mean it is. Similarly, that you're more interested in what you call the main characters doesn't mean they are the only focal points, or even that the majority of time should be spent on them, though I'll point out that the majority of time was spent on them in A Dance with Dragons.

Quentyn has a whopping three chapters in the book, out of 72 total, I'll point out. I fail to see how that makes the endeavor a bloated novel. Rather, he needed to be in the novel, because we know he's out there and on his way to see Dany - the same boat (ho ho ho) as Victarion. I would say it's better, for puposes of the narrative, to see him en route, because we're able to see more of the world that way, and see outside opinions of Dany's rule, or attempt to rule, which is the entire point of her portion of A Dance with Dragons. He'd also be just another peghead in the way during the early **** that goes on with her chapters. Trying to force him in there, minus the journey, would have made the narrative lumpier.

I'm not saying GRRM is without fault. I condemn the Arya storyline since the end of A Storm of Swords openly. The chapters are an example of "spinning their wheels," likely hampered due to her age and an inability to progress the timeline by years. I'm not saying he doesn't know where he's going with her, or has no end in sight, but the chapters feel oddly placed.

On the other hand, the man knows more about writing than I'll probably ever learn or figure out, so I happily entertain the possibility that maybe I"m just not getting it.