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Old 02-09-2015, 09:37 PM   #1
Lilbaz
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Default America might supply arms to Ukraine

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31279621

"President Barack Obama says the US is studying the option of supplying lethal defensive arms to Ukraine if diplomacy fails to end the crisis in the east.

Russia had violated "every commitment" made in the failing Minsk agreement, he added, after talks with the German chancellor on a new peace deal."

Do our politicians never learn, that throwing fuel onto a fire doesn't usually put it out. Arming Bin Laden, Sadam etc... the weapons will eventually get pointed at us.

If you see a couple of guys picking on someone, you don't give the guy getting picked on a knife. You try and break up the fight. Or film it and put it on youtube.

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Old 02-09-2015, 09:58 PM   #2
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

I don't see Ukraine as being the same as arming a terrorist and dictator.

Ukraine is clearly the victim of Russian aggression. Not to mention that it's a fledgling democracy.

Take care of her, and she might end up in the European Union. Do nothing, and she might end up back in Russia's orbit, with a Kremlin puppet.

Russia only understands one thing.

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Old 02-09-2015, 10:04 PM   #3
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

What Thundercrack said.

Lilbaz's argument is not applicable to Ukraine. Ukraine isn't some radicalized Islamic theocracy burning American flags in the street. The argument is silly and flawed, because it ignores the relevant context of the earlier examples he gave.

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Old 02-10-2015, 03:27 PM   #4
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

Supplying weapons to Ukraine will result in further escalation. Russia will respond by ramping up their support for the separatists. Many more people will die (on both sides), and Kiev will lose control of more territory. Diplomatic ties will be broken even worse than they are now. Kiev will very quickly start hemorrhaging money and morale (military and civilian). Then they will beg us to come rescue them! They will fall on their faces...and we will be partly responsible, because we enabled them.

And yes, the separatists (and Russians) will salvage any/all of our donated weapons, vehicles and gear from the many Ukrainian soldiers they capture or kill.

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Old 02-10-2015, 03:31 PM   #5
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

Russia is not a bottomless pit of money. Even right now, the sanctions are kicking the ass of a lot of people there who are used to having a lot of money to do all the things that rich Russian people like to do. Russia will break before the West does.

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Old 02-10-2015, 06:06 PM   #6
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

Yeah Russia is in a recession and the oligarchs are bleeding money left and right. If Putin wants to play chicken with us he's only going to humiliate himself further. He'll swerve long before we do.

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Old 02-10-2015, 06:41 PM   #7
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

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Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer View Post
What Thundercrack said.

Lilbaz's argument is not applicable to Ukraine. Ukraine isn't some radicalized Islamic theocracy burning American flags in the street. The argument is silly and flawed, because it ignores the relevant context of the earlier examples he gave.
Who makes up Ukraines army? Who's to say Ukraine wont do what Arkan did in Serbia? What happens to the weapons when the fighting is done. What happens to the conscripts in a 3rd world nation? You cannot guarantee these weapons wont be sold off to god knows who. I'm sure Eastern European Mafias would love to get there hands on US military tech.

I'm sure when America armed the Afghans to fight Russia they didn't think those weapons would be turned on them or Saddams when he was fighting Iran. Guess what they were wrong. Now a lot of those weapons are being used by IS. The Russians didn't arm them, they are their enemies fighting against their ally Syria.

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Old 02-10-2015, 06:45 PM   #8
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

How about arming Jordan and the Kurds????

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Old 02-10-2015, 06:49 PM   #9
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

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How about arming Jordan and the Kurds????
I wouldn't arm any of them. I'd try and stop Saudi and Qatar from arming/funding IS.

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Old 02-10-2015, 06:59 PM   #10
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

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I wouldn't arm any of them. I'd try and stop Saudi and Qatar from arming/funding IS.
You know that the Kurds are the only thing stopping a genocide from happening in Northern Iraq!

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Old 02-10-2015, 07:17 PM   #11
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

I don't see Ukraine going genocidal. Particularly when Russia is on their front doorstop looking for an excuse to invade.

But they do need some kind of deterrent. Since the US was party to the Budapest Memorandum, it seems the least it can do to give Ukraine some weapons.

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Old 02-10-2015, 07:28 PM   #12
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

I think the Kurds AND Ukraine should be armed. Jordan doesn't need arms. They're quite capable on their own.

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Old 02-10-2015, 08:11 PM   #13
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

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Originally Posted by herakles View Post
You know that the Kurds are the only thing stopping a genocide from happening in Northern Iraq!
And what happens if IS are defeated and they turn the weapons on Turkey (a member of NATO) and demand their own country?

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Old 02-10-2015, 08:13 PM   #14
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
I don't see Ukraine going genocidal. Particularly when Russia is on their front doorstop looking for an excuse to invade.

But they do need some kind of deterrent. Since the US was party to the Budapest Memorandum, it seems the least it can do to give Ukraine some weapons.
Not saying they'd go genocidal. But Arkan came to power through the war. He emptied the prisons and formed the Tigers. When there is conflict it is usually the most ruthless that gain power due to peoples fears.

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Old 02-10-2015, 08:17 PM   #15
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

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Originally Posted by Lilbaz View Post
And what happens if IS are defeated and they turn the weapons on Turkey (a member of NATO) and demand their own country?
I think the deserve a country.

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Old 02-10-2015, 08:39 PM   #16
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

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And what happens if IS are defeated and they turn the weapons on Turkey (a member of NATO) and demand their own country?
So what? The Kurds are a better friend to us than Turkey.

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Old 02-11-2015, 08:14 AM   #17
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

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And what happens if IS are defeated and they turn the weapons on Turkey (a member of NATO) and demand their own country?
Well, if they get rid of IS, then I'd say the least they deserve is to finally have their own country.

Anyway, while I definitely support arming the Kurds, Ukraine is a more difficult subject. That situation is just going to get worse, and American weapons getting thrown into the mix may give Putin the push he's waiting for to launch an all out invasion.

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Old 02-11-2015, 11:00 AM   #18
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

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Originally Posted by Lilbaz View Post
And what happens if IS are defeated and they turn the weapons on Turkey (a member of NATO) and demand their own country?
Turkey hasn't exactly been acting like our ally lately. Also the Kurds deserve a country of their own. They have shown that they have been our best ally in the region besides Jordan and Israel. Plus all the ethnic minorities have received better treatment and protection from the Kurds.

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Old 02-11-2015, 11:02 AM   #19
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

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Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer View Post
I think the Kurds AND Ukraine should be armed. Jordan doesn't need arms. They're quite capable on their own.
Jordan is running out of missiles for their planes.

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Old 02-11-2015, 04:30 PM   #20
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

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Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
I think the deserve a country.
But the Crimeans don't?

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Old 02-11-2015, 04:45 PM   #21
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

Talk to Moscow, they own it now.

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Old 02-19-2015, 10:35 AM   #22
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

From WaPo: Rout has Ukraine pleading for peacekeepers

Ukraine is now officially getting their asses kicked. They just made a headlong retreat from Debaltseve, a critical strategic point. This comes immediately after the ceasefire, which never truly went into effect, as both sides rushed to claim and hold territory before the deadline. There is already very public internal feuding going on, and there have been calls for resignations of military and government leaders over claims of incompetence.

We can't give weapons to these guys. If we encourage them to stand up to Russia, they will get annihilated. It won't end until the "separatists" are dancing on the Ukrainian flag in the streets of Kiev. We have to find other ways to resolve this situation.

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Old 02-19-2015, 11:17 AM   #23
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

We need to do anything and everything BUT arm Ukraine.

That should be THE last option.

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Old 02-20-2015, 06:00 PM   #24
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

Every time we arm somebody, they eventually end up turning those arms back in our direction. Somehow, someway, it almost always seems to happen.

Let's not make the same mistake again.

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Old 02-20-2015, 06:20 PM   #25
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Default Re: America might supply arms to Ukraine

One problem I see with arming the Ukraine, is all it basically does is prolong the eventual from happening.

As the old saying goes if you're in for the penny you've got to be in for the pound

I don't think we should be in fr the pound

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