Which is better: X2 or First Class?

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

Wow, can it be possible? It seems we agree on an X-Men movie! .

Well, I can find moments I love in X3 and XMO:Wolverine, so I doubt we'll ever be entirely on the same page!!

Though I wouldnt say Singers movies were cold per se, plenty of emotional moments in them.

I find they have a much colder feel in many ways - visually as well as in the emotions. We didn't get much camaraderie between many of the characters in X1 and X2.

I had a feeling Avengers would turn out exactly how you explain, I think given more freedom Whedon could have added some of those missing elements, but Marvel tends to be pretty strict on their visions being put on screen. I have yet to see Avengers myself of course, all of this I am basing on what I have heard.

I might feel a bit differently about Avengers after a second viewing - and you might feel differently on a first viewing - so don't take my word as gospel, by any means. i'm just sharing my impressions.

It's a very different film to the X-Men. Avengers is full of moments where the fans (at my screening anyway) cheered, clapped and laughed. The X-Men films aren't peppered with those sorts of moments, they are darker and edgier. Hence, many are describing Avengers as a 'fun' film. It's very enjoyable but in a different way from X-Men or from the even more serious world of the Dark Knight.

[def28]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

I dont see how you can compare Colossus's role to Darwins, Colossus's scene was a cameo, an easter egg, nothing more, and it was never meant to be, Darwin's was pretty extensive role compared to it, I dont have a problem with the death scene, but I do think a little more development of him beforehand wouldnt have gone amiss.

Colossus and Darwin have the most similar amount of screen time between X characters in X2 and First Class. Darwin is barely in it. Hes nothing more then a cameo with an extra minute that gets offed. Hes there to show up for 2 min then die, thats it. Darwin doesnt make or break First Class's character develop and neither does Colossus in X2.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

Well, I can find moments I love in X3 and XMO:Wolverine, so I doubt we'll ever be entirely on the same page!!

Well I was just referring to First Class, I know from history we dont agree on the others in many ways.

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

I find they have a much colder feel in many ways - visually as well as in the emotions. We didn't get much camaraderie between many of the characters in X1 and X2.

I think visually Singers films are much colder, and somewhat emotionally, but I did find camarderie at points in X1 and X2, especially between the kids, similar to that scene in FC really, but I do really enjoy that scene in FC.

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

I might feel a bit differently about Avengers after a second viewing - and you might feel differently on a first viewing - so don't take my word as gospel, by any means. i'm just sharing my impressions.

It's a very different film to the X-Men. Avengers is full of moments where the fans (at my screening anyway) cheered, clapped and laughed. The X-Men films aren't peppered with those sorts of moments, they are darker and edgier. Hence, many are describing Avengers as a 'fun' film. It's very enjoyable but in a different way from X-Men or from the even more serious world of the Dark Knight.

Oh yeah, definately, I may love the movie, but the things you pointed out were my worries for the movie.

Originally Posted by def28

Colossus and Darwin have the most similar amount of screen time between X characters in X2 and First Class. Darwin is barely in it. Hes nothing more then a cameo with an extra minute that gets offed. Hes there to show up for 2 min then die, thats it. Darwin doesnt make or break First Class's character develop and neither does Colossus in X2.

Again, I disagree, Colossus was a cameo, there to set up a bigger role for the character in X3 (Singers version anyway), it was an easter egg for the fans to show what is coming. Darwin's was a genuine role and his death played a big part in upping the stakes and establishing Shaw as a big threat, the only thing is we didnt really get to know him enough before his death to care much.

[def28]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

Again, I disagree, Colossus was a cameo, there to set up a bigger role for the character in X3 (Singers version anyway), it was an easter egg for the fans to show what is coming. Darwin's was a genuine role and his death played a big part in upping the stakes and establishing Shaw as a big threat, the only thing is we didnt really get to know him enough before his death to care much.

Yeah he has a slightly bigger role then Colossus and I agree Darwins there to show Shaws a threat. Thats all hes there for though. My main point is I dont think Darwins lack of character hurts FC in any way or makes it less of a movie then X2. Hes the only one who is not focused on cause his point is to show up die. Focusing on another scene with the kids and Darwin talking would not have added much to the overall film as a whole or changed my opinion on how FC handled the other characters. What did he do that made him a genuine role? Try and save kids? Colossus did that to. He talked for about a min but thats it.

Also I wouldnt consider Colossus an easter egg in X2. Easter Eggs are hidden. Catching Remy Lebeau or Wade Wilson on Strykers File is something only fans will catch. Colossus was clearly there, I would consider him an extended cameo or a small role. He has more then one line and one scene. The first time I saw X2 I thought they were actually gonna have him through out the film. They introduced him and he never showed up again.

[Mrs Vimes]

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

I'd like to have known why Emma, Azazel and Riptide were with Shaw

Do we ever get much explanation though for why a villain's henchmen/women are where they are? In the original trilogy, we get nothing on Toad or Sabertooth or Mystique. Deathstrike has a great fight scene with Wolverine and, if I remember correctly, one line of dialogue that tells us nothing about her.

[Leenie]

I prefer First Class ... By a mile.

THIS was the X-Men 1 I wanted to see back in 2000, to be honest. I just wish that the X franchise started here.

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

Originally Posted by Thebumwhowalks

If anything, I'd say your attitude was the one that sounds prejudiced, as if to say, well, your opinion on the films can't be wrong, so the people who disagree with you must have their opinions skewered by predudice.

Sorry you feel that way, it was not my intention to paint that kind of picture. Perhaps the comment was best left unsaid, though I have encountered it elsewhere. And note I did say the critiques were warranted, just not constant beating of the same drum imo.

Originally Posted by Thebumwhowalks

Cap's third act, once he put on the suit, was rushed through and unsatisfying. Cap was a bit dull as a character.
Thor felt like two episodes of Smallville with a bigger budget.
Iron-Man 2's first half was great, but second half was again rushed through, and the main villan was wasted, only having one dramatic scene with the hero in the whole of the film.
Both films had great casting though, and the characterisation gave us characters that did feel like the comics, I can see the good points to the films.

I agree with you for the most part. But just in different degrees. Despite these flaws I enjoyed every film despite IM2.

Originally Posted by Thebumwhowalks

To be frank, I don't care what company makes what hero/film/comic, I have bought the same amount of Marvel and DC comics throughout my life, and have never understood the rivalry between fans who side with one compant over the other, it's absurd.

I'm definitely a Marvel guy, but I have enjoyed DC characters over the years. I don't see a rivalry myself. I've only commented on a DC related forum probably 4 or 5 times. I generally stick to what I like most.

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

In terms of intelligent filmmaking, a sense of craft and subtleties/depth, the X-Men films beat Avengers to a pulp. Singer's films beat Vaughn's First Class on a technical level for direction/cinematography, but i find some fantastic moments in First Class.

Most of the stand-out moments in First Class - for me personally - involve Magneto. The scene in the Argentinian bar, the scene with the satellite dish, and the raising of the submarine (patiently filmed, with that wonderful musical accompaniment, i could have watched it continue for another minute before it cut to Riptide's whirlwind attack).

I also loved the camaraderie between the team when they are choosing codenames and showing off their powers; a warm, human scene that you don't find in Singer's far colder films.

Interesting, thanks for sharing. I suspect I'll feel the same way as you do to some degree. That being said, I also suspect I'll like it more.

I'm really hoping I love the Avenger's and it's every bit as good or better then X2 for example. It just wouldn't be right for me to not want something to be greater then great.

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by SoNicRaDiATioN

Interesting, thanks for sharing. I suspect I'll feel the same way as you do to some degree. That being said, I also suspect I'll like it more.

You may well like it more, but note that I scored it 9 out of 10, so I must have liked it quite a bit!

I'm really hoping I love the Avenger's and it's every bit as good or better then X2 for example. It just wouldn't be right for me to not want something to be greater then great.

I'd like to hear your views when you do see it.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Originally Posted by def28

Yeah he has a slightly bigger role then Colossus and I agree Darwins there to show Shaws a threat. Thats all hes there for though. My main point is I dont think Darwins lack of character hurts FC in any way or makes it less of a movie then X2. Hes the only one who is not focused on cause his point is to show up die. Focusing on another scene with the kids and Darwin talking would not have added much to the overall film as a whole or changed my opinion on how FC handled the other characters. What did he do that made him a genuine role? Try and save kids? Colossus did that to. He talked for about a min but thats it.

Again though their roles werent comparable, Colossus was meant as a cameo in X2, nothing more, he didnt effect the story or development of the characters. Darwin had an effect on both the story and the development of the characters, it was a significant part in the story in that it changed some characters from kids to adults and got some younger mutants involved in the 'war.' Cyclops role in X2 is more comparable to Darwins in FC than Colossus's, they both had small roles that had big repercussions for the story and characters. Evidently, the shortness of both characters roles are complaints for both X2 and FC. Colossus's role had non of these things, it was a cameo for the fans, and that was it.

Originally Posted by def28

Also I wouldnt consider Colossus an easter egg in X2. Easter Eggs are hidden. Catching Remy Lebeau or Wade Wilson on Strykers File is something only fans will catch. Colossus was clearly there, I would consider him an extended cameo or a small role. He has more then one line and one scene. The first time I saw X2 I thought they were actually gonna have him through out the film. They introduced him and he never showed up again.

It was meant as a cameo, nothing more, it was a cameo that would lead into a bigger role in the next movie, same way the cameo's of Iceman and Pyro from X1 led into bigger roles in X2, it was simply there for the fans. Darwins role was never meant to be anything like this, so, IMO he should have had a bit more development.

[def28]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

Again though their roles werent comparable, Colossus was meant as a cameo in X2, nothing more, he didnt effect the story or development of the characters. Darwin had an effect on both the story and the development of the characters, it was a significant part in the story in that it changed some characters from kids to adults and got some younger mutants involved in the 'war.' Cyclops role in X2 is more comparable to Darwins in FC than Colossus's, they both had small roles that had big repercussions for the story and characters. Evidently, the shortness of both characters roles are complaints for both X2 and FC. Colossus's role had non of these things, it was a cameo for the fans, and that was it.



It was meant as a cameo, nothing more, it was a cameo that would lead into a bigger role in the next movie, same way the cameo's of Iceman and Pyro from X1 led into bigger roles in X2, it was simply there for the fans. Darwins role was never meant to be anything like this, so, IMO he should have had a bit more development.

I dont think I ever said Colossus isnt a cameo. I called him an extended cameo. I did disagree with you and said hes clearly not an easter egg in X2. I mentioned that him and Darwin have similar screen times, which they do. and that the lack of Darwin in FC does not make it a weaker movie then X2 in terms of character. Thats what Im arguing.

He does not effect the overall film and imo is there only to add to Shaws threat. Hes there for another characters purpose. Adding more scenes to him would not have made it a better movie to me or improve it on X2. I guess it couldnt hurt, but it would not have added much. He still had to die early. I thought all the other X Men characters were handled well and given a decent amount of screen time. Especially for a first movie of a series. Since many enjoy it as much and some more then X2 it shows alot for FC, X2 alredy had its characters set up. Usually that would be unfair but FC holds up.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Originally Posted by def28

I dont think I ever said Colossus isnt a cameo. I called him an extended cameo. I did disagree with you and said hes clearly not an easter egg in X2. I mentioned that him and Darwin have similar screen times, which they do. and that the lack of Darwin in FC does not make it a weaker movie then X2 in terms of character. Thats what Im arguing.

He does not effect the overall film and imo is there only to add to Shaws threat. Hes there for another characters purpose. Adding more scenes to him would not have made it a better movie to me or improve it on X2. I guess it couldnt hurt, but it would not have added much. He still had to die early. I thought all the other X Men characters were handled well and given a decent amount of screen time. Especially for a first movie of a series. Since many enjoy it as much and some more then X2 it shows alot for FC, X2 alredy had its characters set up. Usually that would be unfair but FC holds up.

I do see what you are saying, I just think you are choosing the wrong examle to compare Darwin's role too. As I said earlier, Darwin's role fit in with the story and the development of the characters, it showed Shaw was a threat, AND it made the kids stand up realise that they were part of something major and even as Magneto said "...no, they were kids, Shaw has his army we need ours." Darwins death tunred them from kids into soldiers fighting a war. Colossus did non of this in X2, nor was he meant too, he was a sort of teaser for the fans to show whats to come.

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

I do see what you are saying, I just think you are choosing the wrong examle to compare Darwin's role too. As I said earlier, Darwin's role fit in with the story and the development of the characters, it showed Shaw was a threat, AND it made the kids stand up realise that they were part of something major and even as Magneto said "...no, they were kids, Shaw has his army we need ours." Darwins death tunred them from kids into soldiers fighting a war. Colossus did non of this in X2, nor was he meant too, he was a sort of teaser for the fans to show whats to come.

While this isn't directed at me, I'm not sure you can say it was just a teaser, since we didn't get to see a Singer-directed X3 and we cannot be certain exactly how that would have turned out. All sorts of things could have meant we might not have seen any more of Colossus (or Nightcrawler for that matter).

All we can be sure of is that it was a cameo. A great one, but just a cameo.

But it is fair to say that Darwin had a pivotal role in the First Class story, in driving it forward. Darwin was not a 'cameo', that much is definite.

[def28]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

I do see what you are saying, I just think you are choosing the wrong examle to compare Darwin's role too. As I said earlier, Darwin's role fit in with the story and the development of the characters, it showed Shaw was a threat, AND it made the kids stand up realise that they were part of something major and even as Magneto said "...no, they were kids, Shaw has his army we need ours." Darwins death tunred them from kids into soldiers fighting a war. Colossus did non of this in X2, nor was he meant too, he was a sort of teaser for the fans to show whats to come.

Even though I think Mags would have said something like that regardless, Your right. Darwin is used as that point, I totally forgot when Mags says we should Avenge him and thats the stepping up point for the kids. If they wanted to use him like that they should have givin him more to do. If he had more of a relationship with the kids then that would have helped that motivation to fight be a bit more believable. I stand corrected.

I do still stick to my point that hes one out of many characters, and besides him the film does just as good of job if not better at times balancing/setting up characters then Singers films.

[henzINNIT]

As Avengers has been thrown into the mix...

X2 > Avengers > First Class

The heroes in Avengers interract in a more superficial way than the X-Men, but that is exactly how it should be in my opinion. X-Men are a family of misfits, Avengers are a team of super-heroes, larger than life characters who are flung together for a fight.

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by henzINNIT

As Avengers has been thrown into the mix...

X2 > Avengers > First Class

The heroes in Avengers interract in a more superficial way than the X-Men, but that is exactly how it should be in my opinion. X-Men are a family of misfits, Avengers are a team of super-heroes, larger than life characters who are flung together for a fight.

I thought Avengers had better special effects (and overall, a more polished feel) than First Class. But I thought First Class had a better story and better moments (Magneto in bar, Magneto/Xavier at the moving of the satellite dish).

[psylockolussus]

X-Men: First Class is totally better the Avengers.

Sometimes, I felt like the moments between the main characters of the Avengers felt forced and I never felt that with X-Men: First Class. First Class had more of those raw and moving emotions and yes First Class had a better story.

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by psylockolussus

X-Men: First Class is totally better the Avengers.

Sometimes, I felt like the moments between the main characters of the Avengers felt forced and I never felt that with X-Men: First Class. First Class had more of those raw and moving emotions and yes First Class had a better story.

Indeed. I will add, though, that the spread of screentime and moments was more even in Avengers than any X-Men film seems to have managed. No one dominated Avengers at the expense of the others. It wasn't Iron Man & Friends. Everyone's powers were showcased (except they were all pretty much indestructible, unfortunately)...

[psylockolussus]

Avengers was about "a team working together" and Joss Whedon did a great job even though I wish Iron Man wasn't shown that much (well I didn't like that he got the last scene before the credits).

With X-Men, its different. X-Men: First Class was mostly about the relationship of Professor X and Magneto and it wasn't really about a team working together for 1 specific mission.

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by psylockolussus

Avengers was about "a team working together" and Joss Whedon did a great job even though I wish Iron Man wasn't shown that much (well I didn't like that he got the last scene before the credits).

With X-Men, its different. X-Men: First Class was mostly about the relationship of Professor X and Magneto and it wasn't really about a team working together for 1 specific mission.

I wonder if First Class would have been better to have been called X-Men Origins: Magneto and then bring in the real 'first class' (Jean, Cyclops, Storm) for X-Men: First Class

[marvelrobbins]

It wasn't just about Magneto despite what some new detractors will say.Plus Teenage versions of Cyclops and others won't come till last part of trilogy.

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by marvelrobbins

It wasn't just about Magneto despite what some new detractors will say.Plus Teenage versions of Cyclops and others won't come till last part of trilogy.

Yes, that's true enough. I was just throwing around ideas and thoughts.

[Mrs Vimes]

Originally Posted by psylockolussus

With X-Men, its different. X-Men: First Class was mostly about the relationship of Professor X and Magneto and it wasn't really about a team working together for 1 specific mission.

Well I think it was both about the relationship -and- the team working for the mission. They're just different kinds of teams. Avengers is a team where everyone is a huge superstar in their own right (kinda like a supergroup) and FC team had more hierarchy (kinda like your regular band where members like lead singer and guitarist get more limelight than the others).

[BH/HHH]

Originally Posted by Leenie

I prefer First Class ... By a mile.

THIS was the X-Men 1 I wanted to see back in 2000, to be honest. I just wish that the X franchise started here.

Totallys agree, I wish they would somehow have some time travel thing in the sequel that resets the timeline like they did in Star Trek.

[RachelDawes]

^They wouldn't even need to do that, quite frankly. Vaughn could just change stuff around and the public wouldn't even notice.

[psylockolussus]

Originally Posted by Mrs Vimes

Well I think it was both about the relationship -and- the team working for the mission. They're just different kinds of teams. Avengers is a team where everyone is a huge superstar in their own right (kinda like a supergroup) and FC team had more hierarchy (kinda like your regular band where members like lead singer and guitarist get more limelight than the others).

I was referring to the plot of the movies. The main plot of Avengers was about a group of Superheroes trying to save the earth from Loki's evil plans. While the plot of X-Men: First Class was about how Professor X and Magneto met each other and how they parted ways.