Which is better: X2 or First Class?

[marvelrobbins]

I really hope both Singer and Vaughn return for sequel.But here Is problem for the Wolverine.Singer Isn't Involved.Granted Christopher Mcquarrie Singer's longtime friend and writer of several of his films(He won oscar for the Usual Suspects.Did uncredited polish on Apt Public,worked on draft of X-Men,wrote Valkyrie,and rewrote Jack the Giant Killer) wrote it but so far we haven't had a X film that Is good without his Involvement.And if X4 gets off the ground he needs to direct It.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by calibud

I kind of feel like Singer is doing to his own series what he did to Donner's Superman series...ignoring the films he needed to in order to tell a better story. Not that I have any issues with it. Just an observation. There's way too much discontinuity for he and the other writers and producers to have been outright ignorant to it.

Oh absolutely. I love Superman Returns, but when you look back at it, maybe going with a flat out reboot would have been the better way to go as opposed to making a pseudo-sequel to a 30 year old movie. First Class on the other hand really benefits from flat out disregarding the last two X-Men movies and tying it into Singer's X-Men movies.

Honestly, instead of X-Men 4, 20th Century Fox should just develop a new X-Men 3 set ten years after X2. They really have a shot at making the X-Men a great franchise again as opposed to us dreading a mediocre installment after another mediocre installment all while we have the longshot wish of Disney just swooping in and stealing the rights from Fox.

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

X2 was a better polished film, but First Class is the superior film. In the end all of the X-Men movies have essentially been Wolverine and His Amazing Mutie Friends. First Class on the other hand is a much more emotional film, you genuinely feel for Magneto, Mystique, Beast, and Xavier, and most of all, Wolverine is only there for like two seconds, allowing character development for pretty much everyone else.

Responding to your blackout:

I can't agree. Havok, Banshee, and the rest of the X-Men team outside of Mystique and Beast got zero development. The movie is named after them, and yet, we really have no idea of who these kids are

[JP]

Originally Posted by FilmNerdJamie

X2.

But they're both in the same league frankly. In time that might change and First Class will trump X-Men United for me.

Agree. I've been watching X2 for the last 8 years. As much as I love First Class, I think I need more time with it.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by marvelrobbins

I really hope both Singer and Vaughn return for sequel.But here Is problem for the Wolverine.Singer Isn't Involved.Granted Christopher Mcquarrie Singer's longtime friend and writer of several of his films(He won oscar for the Usual Suspects.Did uncredited polish on Apt Public,worked on draft of X-Men,wrote Valkyrie,and rewrote Jack the Giant Killer) wrote it but so far we haven't had a X film that Is good without his Involvement.And if X4 gets off the ground he needs to direct It.

I'm pretty sure that Singer will be a producer for the Wolverine. Isn't he the reason why McQuarrie got the screenwriting job for the movie in the first place.

[danoyse]

Originally Posted by JP

Agree. I've been watching X2 for the last 8 years. As much as I love First Class, I think I need more time with it.

Exactly! I need to see First Class many more times (and I will!) before I'm ready to knock X2 off of the top of the list.

[calibud]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

Oh absolutely. I love Superman Returns, but when you look back at it, maybe going with a flat out reboot would have been the better way to go as opposed to making a pseudo-sequel to a 30 year old movie. First Class on the other hand really benefits from flat out disregarding the last two X-Men movies and tying it into Singer's X-Men movies.

Honestly, instead of X-Men 4, 20th Century Fox should just develop a new X-Men 3 set ten years after X2. They really have a shot at making the X-Men a great franchise again as opposed to us dreading a mediocre installment after another mediocre installment all while we have the longshot wish of Disney just swooping in and stealing the rights from Fox.

Nice, someone else who likes Superman Returns .
I would hope that later on down the line they develop something to tell Singer's originally intended X3/X4 Phoenix epic. Maybe by then they'll have finished the prequels and can have some better continuity and story nods so that it all weaves together nicely.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay

Responding to your blackout:

I can't agree. Havok, Banshee, and the rest of the X-Men team outside of Mystique and Beast got zero development. The movie is named after them, and yet, we really have no idea of who these kids are

Not everyone is going to get a lot of character development. But Sebastian Shaw, Magneto, Moira MacTaggert, Charles Xavier, Mystique, and Beast all getting substantial character development makes up for just Havok and Banshee getting very little development. A vast improvement over just one character getting any character development in the previous films.

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

Not everyone is going to get a lot of character development. But Sebastian Shaw, Magneto, Moira MacTaggert, Charles Xavier, Mystique, and Beast all getting substantial character development makes up for just Havok and Banshee getting very little development. A vast improvement over just one character getting any character development in the previous films.

I agree with you that all those characters you named got great character development. But I feel that Singer did a better job developing *all* the characters, all while making Wolverine a focal point.

I knew who Rogue, Cyclops, Storm, and Jean all were. Maybe some of those people didn't get a *lot* of screentime, but I felt the screentime they did get was of high quality. And that's one reason why I have to rate X-Men: First Class the lowest of the group, currently, because when I think about actual character, I just feel like the other films had more of it. By the time character development started getting really sacrificed (X-Men: The Last Stand, X-Men Origins: Wolverine), we already had 2 or 3 movies to establish who these characters were. Buy The Last Stand, I knew who Wolverine, Storm, Iceman, Rogue, etc... all were. And I thought the main new characters like Beast got enough development.

I'll agree that characters like Colossus and Kitty Pryde didn't get much development, but I'd still argue that Kitty Pryde got more development than either Havok or Banshee did.

I mean, this movie is called First Class, and while the characters who were developed were developed superbly, I'd actually like to get to know the X-Men who make up the title of the movie.

[FilmNerdJamie]

Not exactly foaming over a sequel frankly. First Class works. Big time. And it's on the same level as X2 quality wise. But I don't have that same feeling as I did walked outta that second X-Men installment.

Here I walked out thinking, "Alright. That was really good." But if there isn't another one, it isn't a tragedy. We got a complete story that connects to the earlier films and completely works on its own. Something you rarely hear with a prequel, and no, Star Trek doesn't count. That was a reboot.

[Spider-Fan]

Originally Posted by FilmNerdJamie

Not exactly foaming over a sequel frankly. First Class works. Big time. And it's on the same level as X2 quality wise. But I don't have that same feeling as I did walked outta that second X-Men installment.

Here I walked out thinking, "Alright. That was really good." But if there isn't another one, it isn't a tragedy. We got a complete story that connects to the earlier films and completely works on its own. Something you rarely hear with a prequel, and no, Star Trek doesn't count. That was a reboot.

Agreed. I would like to see a proper X4, myself. If FC gets a sequel, I'd def see it if Vaughn makes it, but I would very much like X4 at this point. Ride what FC just did, and use the new approach to X-Men (more character, less rush and explosions) and make an X4 that continues the series and keeps the series going strong.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay

I agree with you that all those characters you named got great character development. But I feel that Singer did a better job developing *all* the characters, all while making Wolverine a focal point.

I knew who Rogue, Cyclops, Storm, and Jean all were. Maybe some of those people didn't get a *lot* of screentime, but I felt the screentime they did get was of high quality. And that's one reason why I have to rate X-Men: First Class the lowest of the group, currently, because when I think about actual character, I just feel like the other films had more of it. By the time character development started getting really sacrificed (X-Men: The Last Stand, X-Men Origins: Wolverine), we already had 2 or 3 movies to establish who these characters were. Buy The Last Stand, I knew who Wolverine, Storm, Iceman, Rogue, etc... all were. And I thought the main new characters like Beast got enough development.

I'll agree that characters like Colossus and Kitty Pryde didn't get much development, but I'd still argue that Kitty Pryde got more development than either Havok or Banshee did.

I mean, this movie is called First Class, and while the characters who were developed were developed superbly, I'd actually like to get to know the X-Men who make up the title of the movie.

Rogue got a little bit of development in the first two X-Men movies, but the vast, vast, VAST bulk of development went to Wolverine. It's a major flaw of even the first two good X-Men movies. Cyclops, Storm, Jean Grey, Magneto, Sabretooth, Professor X, etc. were all pushed aside in favor of Wolverine in all of the X-Men movies. I consider the first three X-Men movies to be Wolverine and His Amazing Mutie Friends as opposed to an X-Men movie.

[marvelrobbins]

Originally Posted by calibud

Nice, someone else who likes Superman Returns .
I would hope that later on down the line they develop something to tell Singer's originally intended X3/X4 Phoenix epic. Maybe by then they'll have finished the prequels and can have some better continuity and story nods so that it all weaves together nicely.

I do like Superman Returns.I don't think It's not without It's problems but It works well as sequel to Superman and the Donnor Cut of Superman II.It may have done better If It would have been done In a new contunity but payed homage to Superman and Superman II similar to how Smallville did.The son Idea was not a bad Idea it was just wasn't executed right.I hated kate Bosworth as Lois and say no point In Richard but Bryan handle all the destrucon and Superman saving things well.I liked Superman high in Sky listening to others and the one where Bullet bounced off eye.I really liked
how Kevin Spacey took hackman's Lex and brought more edge to him.

Superman Returns deteractors are die hard Superman comic fans.Critics are more GA enjoyed the film better than them.

Superman Returns showed Bryan had gone better with special effects since X2.If he does another X film as Director(X4 or possibly take over the final part of First Class trilogy In the event Vaughn would only want to do one sequel or would balk of a third film jumping to 1980's) It would be Improve On X2's action and special effects.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by FilmNerdJamie

Not exactly foaming over a sequel frankly. First Class works. Big time. And it's on the same level as X2 quality wise. But I don't have that same feeling as I did walked outta that second X-Men installment.

Here I walked out thinking, "Alright. That was really good." But if there isn't another one, it isn't a tragedy. We got a complete story that connects to the earlier films and completely works on its own. Something you rarely hear with a prequel, and no, Star Trek doesn't count. That was a reboot.

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan

Agreed. I would like to see a proper X4, myself. If FC gets a sequel, I'd def see it if Vaughn makes it, but I would very much like X4 at this point. Ride what FC just did, and use the new approach to X-Men (more character, less rush and explosions) and make an X4 that continues the series and keeps the series going strong.

I don't see why we can't have both? I'd love a sequel to First Class and a proper Singer sequel to X2.

[danoyse]

I would love to see a sequel to First Class, for no other reason than to see more of McAvoy and Fassbender together. But I think the success (I'm hoping) of the film could open the door to more X-Men films, whether its the X4/X5 they're supposedly planning, a decent Wolverine sequel, or any other spinoffs.

Just to bring the franchise back, for me, is a win.

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

Rogue got a little bit of development in the first two X-Men movies, but the vast, vast, VAST bulk of development went to Wolverine. It's a major flaw of even the first two good X-Men movies. Cyclops, Storm, Jean Grey, Magneto, Sabretooth, Professor X, etc. were all pushed aside in favor of Wolverine in all of the X-Men movies. I consider the first three X-Men movies to be Wolverine and His Amazing Mutie Friends as opposed to an X-Men movie.

As much as Wolverine annoys me for being pushed to the forefront in every medium of X-Men, I disagree. I never once felt like the movies were "Wolverine and the X-Men". In fact, even at times when Wolverine was getting more screentime physically, I didn't always feel like the movie was about -him-. I never felt like X-Men: The Last Stand was about him. Even if she didn't get all the screentime she deserved, I always felt like it was about Jean Grey.

He did get too much screen time, especially in X-Men: The Last Stand when they put him into a role he didn't belong in (the leadership role previously belonging to Cyclops), but I never felt like it was *his* movie and everyone else was tagging along for the ride. X2, sure, because the storyline was Logan's... but the franchise as a whole, no.

[Spider-Fan]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

I don't see why we can't have both? I'd love a sequel to First Class and a proper Singer sequel to X2.

While X3 was a downgrade, I think a sequel to it could be made that erases the damage it caused.

Originally Posted by danoyse

I would love to see a sequel to First Class, for no other reason than to see more of McAvoy and Fassbender together. But I think the success (I'm hoping) of the film could open the door to more X-Men films, whether its the X4/X5 they're supposedly planning, a decent Wolverine sequel, or any other spinoffs.

Just to bring the franchise back, for me, is a win.

I personally would like to see something based on Days of Future Past or involve time travel that would allow us to use the old and new cast in the same storyline.

[FilmNerdJamie]

If there's a First Class sequel (and that remains to be seen), for me the bigger priority of who should return is a no brainer. Singer.

Vaughn got a free pass for The Last Stand when he developed the story with the writers, cast most of the major new characters for that film and then vacated at the 11th hour. Fanboys are too stupid to understand that when all they wanna do is blame everything on Ratner. To be fair, he did a good here.

But this is so clearly Singer at work more than anything. I'd heard that he had been the one calling the shots here and that's easy to see in this final product.

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Personally, I hope there aren't any post-The Last Stand sequels.

If the franchise is going to continue, then I'm hoping it will be First Class sequels. But if the franchise were to end, I wouldn't lose any sleep.

That's not a commentary on the quality of any of the films, but rather the way X-Men: The Last Stand was handled by dead ending everything and forcing certain closures.

[calibud]

Originally Posted by marvelrobbins

I do like Superman Returns.I don't think It's not without It's problems but It works well as sequel to Superman and the Donnor Cut of Superman II.It may have done better If It would have been done In a new contunity but payed homage to Superman and Superman II similar to how Smallville did.The son Idea was not a bad Idea it was just wasn't executed right.I hated kate Bosworth as Lois and say no point In Richard but Bryan handle all the destrucon and Superman saving things well.I liked Superman high in Sky listening to others and the one where Bullet bounced off eye.I really liked
how Kevin Spacey took hackman's Lex and brought more edge to him.

Superman Returns deteractors are die hard Superman comic fans.Critics are more GA enjoyed the film better than them.

Superman Returns showed Bryan had gone better with special effects since X2.If he does another X film as Director(X4 or possibly take over the final part of First Class trilogy In the event Vaughn would only want to do one sequel or would balk of a third film jumping to 1980's) It would be Improve On X2's action and special effects.

Well I can see how Superman fans were disappointed by it. But i walked out thinking...What would Singer have done with X3 if he were given the same freedom on that production? I mean that in a good way. He's grown a lot since X2 and I wouldn't mind a sequel (either to X2, X3, or XFC) directed by him again. As we were saying earlier, he seems to be willfully ignoring X3 & Origins. That grants him all sorts of freedoms as a story writer, producer, or director involved with the series.

[Nightmare]

X2, but its close.

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan

I personally would like to see something based on Days of Future Past or involve time travel that would allow us to use the old and new cast in the same storyline.

This is really the only way I see a post-The Last Stand sequel working. If done well, a Days Of Future Past type sequel would go a long ways in undoing damage caused by X-Men: The Last Stand while allowing for future sequels.

If done poorly, it could even further damage the franchise into obscurity.

[JP]

Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay

Personally, I hope there aren't any post-The Last Stand sequels.

If the franchise is going to continue, then I'm hoping it will be First Class sequels. But if the franchise were to end, I wouldn't lose any sleep.

That's not a commentary on the quality of any of the films, but rather the way X-Men: The Last Stand was handled by dead ending everything and forcing certain closures.

Couldn't agree more.

[Spider-Fan]

Singer I am not that high on as a director. He is good, but as noted, all his X-films were too Wolverine focused and I absolutely HATED SR (where he had total freedom). I think Vaughn is a better director. He has a better overall film style than Singer does. X2 was more polished and looked better in regard to effects, but First Class had more scope and better camera work (outside of SFX shots). It also had better pacing than anything I have seen from Singer (except for The Usual Suspects).

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by FilmNerdJamie

If there's a First Class sequel (and that remains to be seen), for me the bigger priority of who should return is a no brainer. Singer.

Vaughn got a free pass for The Last Stand when he developed the story with the writers, cast most of the major new characters for that film and then vacated at the 11th hour. Fanboys are too stupid to understand that when all they wanna do is blame everything on Ratner. To be fair, he did a good here.

But this is so clearly Singer at work more than anything. I'd heard that he had been the one calling the shots here and that's easy to see in this final product.

To be fair, Vaughn's cast was pretty damn good. Kelsey Grammer as Beast and Vinnie Jones as the Juggernaut were awesome choices. Though Ratner also casting Ellen Page as Shadowcat was also cool.

X-Men: The Last Standing's problems don't lie with Ratner or Vaughn, it lies mostly with 20th Century Fox wanting a sequel right away and their demands to kill of characters like Cyclops and Xavier. If given more time and if Fox didn't interfere as much, I think we could have gotten a much better film, even with Ratner at the helm.