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Old 06-05-2011, 11:13 AM   #101
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Sorry dude I meant a 100 million and not 1 million. Didn't say it was about Rwanda but you went off topic saying it was the worst even in human history in your opinion. I'm just pointing it out that other horific events happened in my opinion.
I didn't say that. Someone else did.

But Rwanda has nothing to do with this film. It's totally irrelevant. The historical settings of First Class, and Magneto's backstory, make all that other stuff irrelevant to the story.

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Old 06-05-2011, 11:16 AM   #102
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I think it was sort of like a childs paranoia, we have to remeber that he was only a kid when they Nazi's started rounding up the jews and putting them in the camps, I think having grown up in that environment he has sort of always associated himself as someone who is different, sure the nazi's insanity couldnt hurt him anymore but he's a mutant, so I think that kept him thinking that, that's what would happen again, only this time they'd try to kill him because of his mutant heritage rather than his jewish. and he's not entirely unfounded in that, but I think the inhability to give humans a chance is part of that mindset he's had since he was a kid.
Well that makes him sounds more paranoid then being persucuted as a mutant. Also it makes him more a bigot now and no different then the humans he hates. I say this only because if the films aren't touching on thee subject of a minority group's persecution then it's not impactful. So Magneto is gonna turn on humanity because he was persecuted as a child along with millions of other normal humans??? Magneto took that route because he saw mutantns being persucuted and killed and he was one and also had lived through it as a child for being a JEW and here was happeneing again.

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Old 06-05-2011, 11:17 AM   #103
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havok's blast, even at point blank range shouldn't have killed darwin. his power is to evolve to survive any attack
But clearly he isn't indestructible. All the movie versions of characters have their limits. Phoenix never consumed entire stars, Storm got her ass kicked by Toad in X1 before summoning a response. Evidently, Darwin couldn't adapt his body to an explosion from the inside. It was beyond his abilities. You could see he was trying to protect himself, but it wasn't enough...

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Old 06-05-2011, 11:19 AM   #104
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Well that makes him sounds more paranoid then being persucuted as a mutant. Also it makes him more a bigot now and no different then the humans he hates. I say this only because if the films aren't touching on thee subject of a minority group's persecution then it's not impactful. So Magneto is gonna turn on humanity because he was persecuted as a child along with millions of other normal humans??? Magneto took that route because he saw mutantns being persucuted and killed and he was one and also had lived through it as a child for being a JEW and here was happeneing again.
But that's exactly what he is. He becomes the thing he hates. That's his story.

Seeing humanity turn on all mutants on that beach was the trigger in this film, plus he is a supremacist who believes mutants are the better man.

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Old 06-05-2011, 11:23 AM   #105
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Don't think Darwin's death had anything to do with racism.

But the fact that there was not even a single reference or line of dialogue about the civil rights movement was very strange indeed.

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Old 06-05-2011, 11:28 AM   #106
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Well that makes him sounds more paranoid then being persucuted as a mutant. Also it makes him more a bigot now and no different then the humans he hates. I say this only because if the films aren't touching on thee subject of a minority group's persecution then it's not impactful. So Magneto is gonna turn on humanity because he was persecuted as a child along with millions of other normal humans??? Magneto took that route because he saw mutantns being persucuted and killed and he was one and also had lived through it as a child for being a JEW and here was happeneing again.
I don't think he see's the difference to be honest. I think to Magneto, mutant,jew, black, gay, whatever, it's the same thing to him: a group that are "different" from those in power or in the majority. Certainly persecution effect's more than one group. so what if he was persecuted because of his Jewish heritage? it's still a large group of people hating him for what he is, but since there arent nazi's trying to kill him for being a jew, he now look's at his Mutantation as something they can hate him for. and he does what he thinks is right. hurt them before they can hurt him. But really we can't say what he's doing is crazy or not, because none of us (I should hope) have ever been through what he has.

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Old 06-05-2011, 11:37 AM   #107
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Default Re: SPOILERS - Darwin - SPOILERS

*
The casual means in which Darwin is dispatched was the most troubling.
He had no obvious accent..he mentioned the drive to Virginia was six hours.. was he from the upper east coast? And clearly in his early 20s at best..
...Especially after the mayhem displayed by Shaw’s invasion of the CIA base.. I was expecting Darwin to announce that he’s leaving to become a freedom rider.. (google it)
Compared to the cameo by _____, Darwin really had the most reason to say 'go____ yourselves'. People who looked like Darwin (and Angel) were getting their heads knocked off for sitting at lunch counters or sipping at the ‘wrong’ drinking fountain. The spy games of Charles and even the Nazi-hunting of Erik were hardly going to change all that.

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Old 06-05-2011, 11:46 AM   #108
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Don't think Darwin's death had anything to do with racism.

But the fact that there was not even a single reference or line of dialogue about the civil rights movement was very strange indeed.
Who knows perhaps it was cut from the movie.

Vaughn cut the crossdressing scene, romance subplot between Charles and Moria, Charles and Eriks fight with a 7ft tall guy and numerous other scenes

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Old 06-05-2011, 11:58 AM   #109
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Default Re: SPOILERS - Darwin - SPOILERS

This entire thread is ridiculous

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Old 06-05-2011, 01:05 PM   #110
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Since the sequel is in the '70's the entire civil rights thing over and done with by then...
The 'civil rights thing' is not over and done with now, 40 years after the 60's. Many of the things the people in the Civil Rights Movement fought for have not been realized. It's not some neat little issue that can be checked off. "Civil rights", really human rights, has been and continues to be an issue for the US.

If this X-Men film was about prejudice, how can mentioning the Civil Rights movement make it lose focus? At most it might give some dimension to the characters, as I've said in previous posts. Mentioning the Civil Rights Movement made more sense than creating a whole secret history of the Cuban Missile Crisis. And the Civil Rights Movement actually played a real part in the creation of the X-Men, so how is that losing its focus? The Civil Rights Movement helped provide the X-Men with its focus, its rationale to begin with.

It's true that the movie didn't address the issue. What's done is done, but I don't see why we should or shouldn't point out or call out what soem of us thought the movie did in error. That's what we all do on these boards all the freaking time. But when issues of race come up, then it's ridiculous or we shouldn't discuss it. That's B.S.

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Old 06-05-2011, 01:06 PM   #111
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Who knows perhaps it was cut from the movie.

Vaughn cut the crossdressing scene, romance subplot between Charles and Moria, Charles and Eriks fight with a 7ft tall guy and numerous other scenes
That's true. But we can only go off the theatrical cut for the moment. And its the theatrical cut that includes the most important scenes.

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Old 06-05-2011, 01:07 PM   #112
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I liked Darwin's small role in this film. His death was kinda cool. I just wish the characters felt more remorse for him. He turned into energy and light, just like in the comics. He'll make a new body in time for the sequel
I really hope so, and First Class was merely meant as an intro to the character. If he doesn't come back for the sequel his part in the movie will feel like a total waste.

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Old 06-05-2011, 01:12 PM   #113
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I could forgive his death if he comes back in the sequel. I would consider it something close to what happened to him in the comics.

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Old 06-05-2011, 01:39 PM   #114
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The more I think about Darwin getting killed it makes me Holler BS every time. I hope someone sees Matthew Vaughn and ask him why did Darwin have to die. The other three character are much weaker.

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Old 06-05-2011, 02:00 PM   #115
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I could forgive his death if he comes back in the sequel. I would consider it something close to what happened to him in the comics.
I think it'd be a shame if Darwin returned in the sequel. I know the comics resurrect people all of the time, but you make death - and his sacrifice - less important if he just pops up in the next movie and goes "I'm back!"

Not to mention, you start to confuse and betray your audience when you undo "consequences" like this. Nothing in your world can be life-threatening if the audience can't trust you not to simply reverse it later on. I think dead characters are best left dead.

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Old 06-05-2011, 02:10 PM   #116
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Darwin's whole entire power is to be able to adapt to survive. I actually think it makes very little sense for him to have died the way he did. And I don't think his death had any weight whatsoever considering it wasn't brought up ever again after the aftermath scene and his appearance was so short. This isn't like undoing Jean's Dark Phoenix Saga death.

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Old 06-05-2011, 02:16 PM   #117
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Darwin's whole entire power is to be able to adapt to survive. I actually think it makes very little sense for him to have died the way he did. And I don't think his death had any weight whatsoever considering it wasn't brought up ever again after the aftermath scene and his appearance was so short. This isn't like undoing Jean's Dark Phoenix Saga death.
I don't disagree with you at all. I didn't feel there was much impact resulting from his death - not on a par with Jean - but my point is that reversing death, even this once, starts to lead you down a slippery slope. X3 did this, unfortunately, because several dramatic events - Xavier's death, Magneto's being cured - just get undone by the end of the same movie.

I wish Darwin hadn't died (or perhaps, just not been involved in the film), but I'm not sure bringing him back wouldn't seem a bit silly to the audience.

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Old 06-05-2011, 02:19 PM   #118
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I actually don't think they should mention the civil rights movement at all. This is an alternate Universe, where "MUTANT" is "BLACK." The fact that the mutants are disliked by normal people is a reference to the civil rights movement in of itself. I would imagine in that world people wouldn't care about skin color any more. They have a new thing to discriminate. Since the rumor is the sequel starts with the Kennedy assassination, maybe it can be rewritten to that degree?

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Old 06-05-2011, 02:21 PM   #119
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The only reason they even picked a character like Darwin was because he's not a beloved character like say...havok or banshee. If he bites the bullet, people won't complain much. Same with Angel...if it were Cyclops of some other character that went to the bad side poeople would cry foul.

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Old 06-05-2011, 02:22 PM   #120
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It seems a little unfair to ignore persecution of black people, and the Civil Rights movement, when they've so heavily invested time in showing persecution of Jewish people. Their world doesn't seem to be a place in which all minorities are loved except for mutants.

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Old 06-05-2011, 02:29 PM   #121
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It seems a little unfair to ignore persecution of black people, and the Civil Rights movement, when they've so heavily invested time in showing persecution of Jewish people. Their world doesn't seem to be a place in which all minorities are loved except for mutants.
I agree. And since when did having other groups to hate stop people from persecuting black people?

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Old 06-05-2011, 02:32 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by X-Maniac View Post
There's no way they can risk saving that beach scene and Xavier's paralysis until a second or third film, which may not happen. I admire your confidence in such sequels being greenlit with a simple nod, but that's not the reality of how things happen.

i thought the beach scene and
Xavier being crippled brought a
sense of satisfying conclusion to
the film. Otherwise, where/how
would they have ended it?

It's quite clear why Magneto chose his path. His hatred of humanity was more than justified by the missile attack, it proved him right. As we see later, he becomes the thing he hates the most. He is bitter and psychotic.

There's plenty more scope to show
mutant persecution and Civil
Rights. Your expectations on all
these events being packed into the
first of this new franchise is
unrealistic and, frankly,
preposterous.
You say preposterous, I say inadequate writing. For starters I never ever said that i wanted the civil rights movement to be piled on think. All I said that their was no mention of it what so ever. I don't anyone who questioned the movement not even being mentioned implied that it be made the focal point of the movie. The writers actually based the persecution of mutants off the civil rights struggle back when Xmen was created in the 60's. You may not like it or feel the film is no place for it but it's an important aspect if you are trying to show the beginning and want the audience to get an understanding of the characters. Based off the movie Magneto is a bigoted and a racist himself. What mutant persecution did he experience in The film? What persecution of other mutants did he witness? None. What he his basing his justification for hating humanity is the holocaust, an event that affected millions of humans and as far as it's been said only one mutant. Him. No sir I don't accept it from a movie stand point. It's easier for us to say if because we know of his history in the comics.

Also trying to cram a rich history such as this into a single movie with out even setting a time frame is silly. How long did Charles know Erik? He pulls Erik from the water and they band together with the CIA to stop Shaw in what appeared to be weeks or a few months on camera. So we are to believe they are these great friends that quickly? Um no. Like I said we know from the comics that it was years before Erik and Charles fell out and they did witness mutant persecution and that Erik reacted the way he did because of the Holocaust. In the movie it's not done and why I stand by that them parting ways shouldve been done in a 3 rd film if a trilogy is being planned.

Eric supposed to have helped Charles build Cerebro, locate and train young mutants for a time, and battle evil mutants and based off X3 recruit Jean Grey. I guess that goes out the window and that wasn't Mags with Charles at the Grey household in X3. Better if we just ignore it.

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Old 06-05-2011, 02:41 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by neemer5 View Post
I actually don't think they should mention the civil rights movement at all. This is an alternate Universe, where "MUTANT" is "BLACK." The fact that the mutants are disliked by normal people is a reference to the civil rights movement in of itself. I would imagine in that world people wouldn't care about skin color any
more. They have a new thing to
discriminate. Since the rumor is
the sequel starts with the Kennedy
assassination, maybe it can be
rewritten to that degree?
That is ridiculous . The Holocaust can exist fine in This alternate universe but blacks are now equal
and the civil rights didn't exist and
King didn't exist and there was
never any slavery now?? Well if
there was no civil rights then
slavery doesnt exist as well.

Did i miss something in my years of reading Marvel? I wasnt aware that the civil rights movement never happened in the marvel universe and that blacks are equal. Is that the way it is. Slavery also didn't happen.
You also lose the argument because humans didn't know mutants exist, so who was being discriminated against where Erik had basis for his hatred of humanity and to turn against them and part ways with
Xavier.


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Old 06-05-2011, 02:42 PM   #124
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You say preposterous, I say inadequate writing. For starters I never ever said that i wanted the civil rights movement to be piled on think. All I said that their was no mention of it what so ever. I don't anyone who questioned the movement not even being mentioned implied that it be made the focal point of the movie. The writers actually based the persecution of mutants off the civil rights struggle back when Xmen was created in the 60's. You may not like it or feel the film is no place for it but it's an important aspect if you are trying to show the beginning and want the audience to get an understanding of the characters. Based off the movie Magneto is a bigoted and a racist himself. What mutant persecution did he experience in The film? What persecution of other mutants did he witness? None. What he his basing his justification for hating humanity is the holocaust, an event that affected millions of humans and as far as it's been said only one mutant. Him. No sir I don't accept it from a movie stand point. It's easier for us to say if because we know of his history in the comics.

Also trying to cram a rich history such as this into a single movie with out even setting a time frame is silly. How long did Charles know Erik? He pulls Erik from the water and they band together with the CIA to stop Shaw in what appeared to be weeks or a few months on camera. So we are to believe they are these great friends that quickly? Um no. Like I said we know from the comics that it was years before Erik and Charles fell out and they did witness mutant persecution and that Erik reacted the way he did because of the Holocaust. In the movie it's not done and why I stand by that them parting ways shouldve been done in a 3 rd film if a trilogy is being planned.

Eric supposed to have helped Charles build Cerebro, locate and train young mutants for a time, and battle evil mutants and based off X3 recruit Jean Grey. I guess that goes out the window and that wasn't Mags with Charles at the Grey household in X3. Better if we just ignore it.
How many real-life atrocities can they reference for the sake of referencing? This was a global film, and there was a lot more going on in the world besides the civil rights movement at the time, and personally, I think its extremely self-centered to expect mention of it. There were extremely major, tragic events going on in the world that affected my cultural background at that time, and you don't see me complaining that they weren't mentioned.

Yes, the civil rights movement was an extremely important part of our nations history. But this movie isn't about our nation. It's about an alternate reality. I don't think the civil rights movement would exist the way it happened in real life. It would instead be humans versus mutants, and that is actually a tip to the civil rights movement.

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Old 06-05-2011, 02:48 PM   #125
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You may not like it or feel the film is no place for it but it's an important aspect if you are trying to show the beginning and want the audience to get an understanding of the characters. Based off the movie Magneto is a bigoted and a racist himself. What mutant persecution did he experience in The film? What persecution of other mutants did he witness? None. What he his basing his justification for hating humanity is the holocaust, an event that affected millions of humans and as far as it's been said only one mutant. Him. No sir I don't accept it from a movie stand point. It's easier for us to say if because we know of his history in the comics.
I think you've articulated this point well - for a series so heavily based on the idea of persecution and dealing with diversity, there seems to be surprisingly little of this theme actually present in XMFC.

It's something I've been thinking about with regards to Mystique, whose journey is supposed to be about turning away from people who won't accept her real face and embracing her mutation. I can't help but feel this is just slightly hollow given we never really seem to see anybody treating her any differently for her blue-skinned appearance. From the very beginning, when Charles first finds her in his kitchen, he is awed by her rather than scared; the major reaction in the room when she transforms for the CIA is amazement and pleasure from Oliver Platt's character; even her fellow teammates never seem particularly disgusted by her appearance.

In X1, Mystique's apparent dislike of humans is based on fear she felt as a child which prevented her from having a normal life. She lives a fairly normal life in XMFC after finding Charles, and they never even tell us where she came from or what she went through before she came to his house. Nobody seems to tell her that her blue form is wrong; she only seems to worry that she isn't receiving the attention she wants from Xavier. Nobody fears or despises her real face, even though this is seemingly motivation for her to abandon Xavier at the end of the movie.

I'm surprised that, as Nokio says, for a series so heavily reliant on themes of persecution that there's more tell than show in XMFC.

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