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Old 06-06-2011, 01:43 AM   #1
DoomGuy91
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Default The Tale of Two Ravens

After seeing First Class, and with Mystiques new backstory revealed, i have a hard time seeing her as the same Raven in the x-men trilogy that was a cold killing monster that was a fraked up psycho, while the Raven in First Class felt like an actual human being. Yes i know the passing of time can change a person, but it just feels odd.

She went from someone, who although joined Magneto, still cared for Charles. However in X1, she tries to kill/hurt Charles by poisoning Cerebro, and shows no remorse while doing the act. It is hard to believe that the same Raven in First Class could try to do this to her adopted brother, it is even harder to believe she would show no remorse/guilt in doing the act. She also left charles to die in X2 when Stryker's base crumbles around him. So the Raven of X1/X1/X3 feels like she would kill Charles in a heartbeat if Erik allowed it and if she got the chance.

There could be several reasons made to explain this weird discrepancy.

1. Raven in X1,X2,X3 is actually a clone of the original.
2. Raven got a mind wipe between the films (perhaps by Magneto), which resulted in her radical change of personality.
3. Raven in the other x-men films was actually an AU version from a parallel universe, one in which she didn't meet charles as a child and him become her adopted brother.

BUT all those options are lame.

Do you get what im trying to say fellow X-men fans? It just seems that two ravens exist in the X-men franchise, even though technically there is only one. How would they fix this, in a believable way? Thoughts on this matter?


I also think that if Mystique was the adopted sister of Charles, he would have made a mention of it in the X-men trilogy, a big matter was made in those movies that Erik used to be his friend before he became his enemy. I think someone who you considered a sister, betraying you, would be even worse. Another discrepancy that should be mentioned.


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Old 06-06-2011, 01:47 AM   #2
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

Wait...when did she try to kill him in X2? The only interaction I remember them having is her turning into Stryker to convince Jason to make Xavier kill all humans...and in X1, she pretty much just incapacitated him from using his powers.

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Old 06-06-2011, 01:52 AM   #3
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

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Wait...when did she try to kill him in X2? The only interaction I remember them having is her turning into Stryker to convince Jason to make Xavier kill all humans...and in X1, she pretty much just incapacitated him from using his powers.
I remember in some X-men film, she poisoned Cerebero (is that how you spell it?), by masquerading as an X-men, which harmed Charles. Maybe i am wrong that i happened in X2, X1 perhaps?

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Old 06-06-2011, 02:02 AM   #4
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

There's no indication within the first film that Mystique is trying to do anything more than incapacitate Xavier, which is consistent with the nature of both her relationship with him as revealed in FC and Erik's relationship with him as established in the first film and X2.

If FC (and any sequels to it) is in fact used as a direct prequel to the first two films, the fact that there is such a major time gap between the events of FC and the events of the first two films can very much be used to explain any changes in Raven's characterization.

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Old 06-06-2011, 02:02 AM   #5
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Do you get what im trying to say fellow X-men fans? It just seems that two ravens exist in the X-men franchise, even though technically there is only one. How would they fix this, in a believable way? Thoughts on this matter?
There is a 40 year difference between the events of First Class and the other X-Men films. That's a long time, and people change. That's the idea. I have no doubt the Mystique in First Class could evolve into the Mystique seen in the later movies.

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I also think that if Mystique was the adopted sister of Charles, he would have made a mention of it in the X-men trilogy, a big matter was made in those movies that Erik used to be his friend before he became his enemy. I think someone who you considered a sister, betraying you, would be even worse. Another discrepancy that should be mentioned.
Yeah, if this had been planned from the beginning, it might have been mentioned. Then again, the original trilogy reveals Xavier isn't as forthright as first thought. You would think he would tell Scott he is sleeping with a ticking time bomb (Jean), but Xavier keeps that a secret too. As for Mystique, again, 40 years have passed. By X-Men, they've spent more time apart than they ever did together. It's a personal matter, and I see no reason why he should just open up to a stranger, like Wolverine. He tells him what he needs to know about the main threat, Magneto, and moves on.

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Old 06-06-2011, 02:05 AM   #6
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Wait...when did she try to kill him in X2? The only interaction I remember them having is her turning into Stryker to convince Jason to make Xavier kill all humans...and in X1, she pretty much just incapacitated him from using his powers.
She and Erik leave him to die in Cerebro, as Stryker's base crumbles around him.

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Old 06-06-2011, 02:10 AM   #7
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

She just became more militant, willing to kill anyone who gets in the way of Magneto's plans for mutants.

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Old 06-06-2011, 02:10 AM   #8
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

It is obvious in First Class that Raven reached out to Charles for more than he was willing to give her. As literally the only person she knew in the world, this rejection festered for years. She grew to realize, or at least think, that Charles was disgusted by her true appearance. This rejection and, from her view, disgust, is what led her to Magneto in the first place. After 40 years of being manipulated by Magneto, she would likely hate Xavier, or at the very least, completely dismiss him as a fool and a traitor that was too stupid to know that he was working for the enemy.

It fits perfectly.

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Old 06-06-2011, 02:11 AM   #9
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She and Erik leave him to die in Cerebro, as Stryker's base crumbles around him.
I guess at that point, she had let go of all of that and she was willing to do what she had to do, especially after being with Magneto for so long. I don't think she intentionally wanted Xavier to be killed by leaving him there, but at the same time, she had not worried herself anymore about his fate. It was like, at that moment she kissed Erik those years, she no longer became the same Raven.


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Old 06-06-2011, 02:12 AM   #10
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

40 years is a long time, and by then Mystique had very much adopted the "any means necessary" approach.

The real question is when did her voice start sounding computerized??

In seriousness, I think they made the decision to give her a normal voice that was more relatable.

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Old 06-06-2011, 02:17 AM   #11
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I guess at that point, she had let go of all of that and she was willing to do what she had to do, especially after being apart of Magneto for so long. I don't think she intentionally wanted Xavier to be killed by leaving him there, but at the same time, she had not worried herself anymore about his fate. It was like, at that moment she kissed Erik, she no longer became the same Raven.
Cyclops: So...you had a sister.

Charles: Yes...but she was killed when a former student of mine turned evil

*later*

Cyclops: WTF Charles, why didn't you tell us Mystique was your adopted sister? I thought you said you sister was dead? Why did you lie?

Charles: I never lied, i said the truth...from a certain point of view.

Cyclops: Obi-wan...is that u?

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Old 06-06-2011, 02:22 AM   #12
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Cyclops: So...you had a sister.

Charles: Yes...but she was killed when a former student of mine turned evil

*later*

Cyclops: WTF Charles, why didn't you tell us Mystique was your adopted sister? I thought you said you sister was dead? Why did you lie?

Charles: I never lied, i said the truth...from a certain point of view.

Cyclops: Obi-wan...is that u?
Mystique: Magneto, hold me like you did by the lake on Naboo

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Old 06-06-2011, 02:32 AM   #13
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

Just because no-one mentions the depth of Xavier and Mystique's relationship in the original film(s) doesn't automatically equate to there being any inconsistency, nor does it automatically equate to no-one knowing about it, although I can certainly see Patrick Stewart's Xavier having kept it a secret. Either way, it still works given the length of time (40+ years) between FC and the original film(s).

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Old 06-06-2011, 02:36 AM   #14
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

Mystique: O Magneto i just love your views. You have told me that it doesn't matter what i am, that I and others should accept it....i sure hope you stick by my side and accept me regardless of what I look like.

Magneto: sure thing, ill never abandon you, regardless of what you are.

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Old 06-06-2011, 02:38 AM   #15
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

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Just because no-one mentions the depth of Xavier and Mystique's relationship in the original film(s) doesn't automatically equate to there being any inconsistency, nor does it automatically equate to no-one knowing about it, although I can certainly see Patrick Stewart's Xavier having kept it a secret. Either way, it still works given the length of time (40+ years) between FC and the original film(s).
I never said it was a continuity issue, it isn't (unlike the introduction of Jean Grey), i just said it feels like a discrepancy, which is true.

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Old 06-06-2011, 02:42 AM   #16
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

You can't say that something 'feels like a discrepancy' and simultaneously say that there isn't actually any discrepancy.

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Old 06-06-2011, 02:43 AM   #17
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

You know, I know this kid who was cute and cuddly. I think everyone does. Everyone loved him, everyone loved how he pat his dad's shaving cream and screamed.
Then, 14 years later, boom, arrested for drug use and posession. And the the kid was Macauly Culkin.
People change in 14 years, why not in 40?

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Old 06-06-2011, 02:45 AM   #18
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

40 years had passed.

At this point, Mystique has been around Magneto much longer than she ever was with Xavier.

It'll be interesting to see how her character continues down a dark path in future movies.

But given the ridiculous time gap between this and X1, I don't find it a stretch that after 40 YEARS she would turn into the Mystique she is in the original movies.

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Old 06-06-2011, 02:55 AM   #19
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

If the first film takes place in, say, the mid-2000s *, there's actually a 40+ year gap, which makes it even more plausible for Mystique's FC backstory to fit the Rebecca Romjiin version of the character.

* AFAIK, an exact date for the events of the first film has never been established (1944 is the only date we see in the first film)

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Old 06-06-2011, 03:03 AM   #20
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

30 years of Magneto's poison in her ears would be enough to pit Mystique against Charles. Maybe things would have worked out better for the two of them if Charles had stopped Mystique from joining Magneto, but he wanted to start treating her like an adult and that meant he had to let her go. It's kind of sad though, because he probably could have solved a lot of problems if he had just boinked her (in her blue form, of course). Oh, what a burden that surely would have been... [/sarcasm]

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Old 06-06-2011, 03:12 AM   #21
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

Again...Raven tried for years to develop a deeper relationship with Charles...and was rejected. In her mind, this was because Charles was disgusted by her mutation. This is clearly spelled out in the movie. Finally, Magneto tells her that her mutation is what makes her beautiful, so she approaches Charles again, naked and in her natural state...and he about dies when he sees her and has her cover up. She believes that Charles...this person she has wanted more from for years...is not only disgusted by her...but he is also a sell-out to the people who want to kill mutants.

It's...just so obvious how she ended up where she is in X1...this does not in any way seem like a discrepancy.

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Old 06-06-2011, 03:14 AM   #22
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Again...Raven tried for years to develop a deeper relationship with Charles...and was rejected. In her mind, this was because Charles was disgusted by her mutation. This is clearly spelled out in the movie. Finally, Magneto tells her that her mutation is what makes her beautiful, so she approaches Charles again, naked and in her natural state...and he about dies when he sees her and has her cover up. She believes that Charles...this person she has wanted more from for years...is not only disgusted by her...but he is also a sell-out to the people who want to kill mutants.

It's...just so obvious how she ended up where she is in X1...this does not in any way seem like a discrepancy.
Very well said.

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Old 06-06-2011, 03:17 AM   #23
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

I love how this new film adds layers to the old films even though they never planned it that way in the beginning. That's the beauty of this new movie.

It's actually a lot of fun seeing where it fits (and yes, where it doesn't).

In X3 the way Beast tells Xavier and Storm about Mystique's capture, it sounds like she's this annoyance that has been popping in and out of their lives for a while.

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Old 06-06-2011, 03:19 AM   #24
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

I also like how in X2 when Mystique is disguised as Senator Kelly she does try to protect Xavier's school by saying it was "just a school" as to not further draw attention.

That I find awesome.

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Old 06-06-2011, 03:20 AM   #25
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I also like how in X2 when Mystique is disguised as Senator Kelly she does try to protect Xavier's school by saying it was "just a school" as to not further draw attention.

That I find awesome.
I've always loved that part too!

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