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Old 06-06-2011, 04:21 AM   #26
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

I said this in another thread but I for one also have a difficult time envisioning the woman in FC being the same one as in X1. It's easy to jump onto the '40 years have passed' argument but ultimately what we got in FC was a character arc that veers to much in the opposite direction to what is ultimately suppose to become of her. I cannot believe for a second that the character in FC with the emotional links she had with Charles could suddenly end up as the character in X1, I don't care how persuasive Magneto is or will be, for more than 20 years Charles had her back and treated her like a sister, and that counts for something in my book, if anything it gives her the ability to look at both ideologies objectively. You see it all through the film that there is great admiration and affection between them, the only way that relationship deteriorates to the point of her becoming who she does in X1 is if Charles is the reason for it. Something terrible must happen to break that bond and it has to be at the hands of Prof X, anything less and the character arc will never feel correct. At the moment the relationship is barely even strained, they depart on good terms, it needs to be severed irrecoverably.

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Old 06-06-2011, 04:21 AM   #27
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Without some MAJOR retconning, The Last Stand really doesn't and, IMO, shouldn't factor into things; it should be dismissed as apocryphal by future FC sequels, as well as future installments in the main X-saga.

Up to this point I've avoided saying this, but I honestly think that anyone who can't see how Mystique's FC backstory can totally fit the Rebecca Romjiin version of the character is merely looking for things to complain about and inventing issues where there are none.


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Old 06-06-2011, 04:24 AM   #28
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I said this in another thread but I for one also have a difficult time envisioning the woman in FC being the same one as in X1. It's easy to jump onto the '40 years have passed' argument but ultimately what we got in FC was a character arc that veers to much in the opposite direction to what is ultimately suppose to become of her. I cannot believe for a second that the character in FC with the emotional links she had with Charles could suddenly end up as the character in X1, I don't care how persuasive Magneto is or will be, for more than 20 years Charles had her back and treated her like a sister, and that counts for something in my book, if anything it gives her the ability to look at both ideologies objectively. You see it all through the film that there is great admiration and affection between them, the only way that relationship deteriorates to the point of her becoming who she does in X1 is if Charles is the reason for it. Something terrible must happen to break that bond and it has to be at the hands of Prof X, anything less and the character arc will never feel correct. At the moment the relationship is barely even strained, they depart on good terms, it needs to be severed irrecoverably.
40 years is not, as you say, "sudden". And in that incredibly long span of time "something terrible" can definitely happen. I'm only 28 yrs old. I can't even comprehend that amount of time yet.

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Old 06-06-2011, 04:26 AM   #29
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I said this in another thread but I for one also have a difficult time envisioning the woman in FC being the same one as in X1. It's easy to jump onto the '40 years have passed' argument but ultimately what we got in FC was a character arc that veers to much in the opposite direction to what is ultimately suppose to become of her. I cannot believe for a second that the character in FC with the emotional links she had with Charles could suddenly end up as the character in X1, I don't care how persuasive Magneto is or will be, for more than 20 years Charles had her back and treated her like a sister, and that counts for something in my book, if anything it gives her the ability to look at both ideologies objectively. You see it all through the film that there is great admiration and affection between them, the only way that relationship deteriorates to the point of her becoming who she does in X1 is if Charles is the reason for it. Something terrible must happen to break that bond and it has to be at the hands of Prof X, anything less and the character arc will never feel correct. At the moment the relationship is barely even strained, they depart on good terms, it needs to be severed irrecoverably.
Did you miss the part where Charles spent years supporting the idea of her hiding her mutation? Did you miss the part where Charles repeatedly sided with the people who wanted to kill them, like the world's biggest chump? Did you miss the scenes where it was obvious that Charles was at the very least...very turned off...by Raven's mutation, while he chased skirts around bars?

Raven's character arc in this movie was about a girl who grew to lose respect and even hate someone that she cared for. IT IS OBVIOUS IN THE FILM.

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Old 06-06-2011, 04:28 AM   #30
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

Another thing that doesn't help is that the character is just too damn lovable. There was some angst there, but probably needed more.

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Old 06-06-2011, 04:29 AM   #31
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

But I guess if you mean the transition wasn't touched upon enough IN THIS MOVIE, then fair enough.

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Old 06-06-2011, 04:29 AM   #32
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Mystique is lovable in all of the X movies. She is the favorite character in the franchise for a VERY large percentage of the non-comics reading public...women especially.

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Old 06-06-2011, 04:31 AM   #33
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i said this in another thread but i for one also have a difficult time envisioning the woman in fc being the same one as in x1. It's easy to jump onto the '40 years have passed' argument but ultimately what we got in fc was a character arc that veers to much in the opposite direction to what is ultimately suppose to become of her. I cannot believe for a second that the character in fc with the emotional links she had with charles could suddenly end up as the character in x1, i don't care how persuasive magneto is or will be, for more than 20 years charles had her back and treated her like a sister, and that counts for something in my book, if anything it gives her the ability to look at both ideologies objectively. You see it all through the film that there is great admiration and affection between them, the only way that relationship deteriorates to the point of her becoming who she does in x1 is if charles is the reason for it. Something terrible must happen to break that bond and it has to be at the hands of prof x, anything less and the character arc will never feel correct. At the moment the relationship is barely even strained, they depart on good terms, it needs to be severed irrecoverably.
qft


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Old 06-06-2011, 04:32 AM   #34
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Again...Raven tried for years to develop a deeper relationship with Charles...and was rejected. In her mind, this was because Charles was disgusted by her mutation. This is clearly spelled out in the movie. Finally, Magneto tells her that her mutation is what makes her beautiful, so she approaches Charles again, naked and in her natural state...and he about dies when he sees her and has her cover up. She believes that Charles...this person she has wanted more from for years...is not only disgusted by her...but he is also a sell-out to the people who want to kill mutants.

It's...just so obvious how she ended up where she is in X1...this does not in any way seem like a discrepancy.
I agree that Raven probably interpreted Charles' actions as finding her true form ugly, but that was not actually the reason for Charles' actions, and unfortunately, since he stated quite clearly that he does not read Raven's mind, he did not realize how she was interpreting his reactions to her. He wanted her to cover up because he thinks of her as his little sister, and seeing her naked as an adult was contradicting the image he had of her as being like an innocent young girl. He never associated her with anything sexual before, and when the idea of that was presented to him he panicked. In that sense, it was not actually a lack of attraction that disgusted Charles, but the attraction itself-- he wanted to think of Raven as the innocent little sister, and when he saw her as a nubile adult woman, his kneejerk reaction was "for goodness' sake, put some clothes on!"

Charles is rational to a fault-- literally. If he were more impulsive he probably would have picked up on Raven's advances a lot more quickly, and maybe even reciprocated, but as he was he was far more concerned with taking care of her and being there for her as a friend than he was in fulfilling her romantic needs (which he was oblivious to). I think Charles believed that Raven was pretty and that when he said "any man would be lucky to have you" he was being sincere, but of course from Raven's point of view, her reaction was "then how come no matter how hard I try, you don't notice me like that?" Also, the fact that Charles encouraged her to hide her mutation in public probably sent her missed messages, even though he was completely comfortable with her natural skin color when they were alone together.


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Old 06-06-2011, 04:37 AM   #35
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Did you miss the part where Charles spent years supporting the idea of her hiding her mutation? Did you miss the part where Charles repeatedly sided with the people who wanted to kill them, like the world's biggest chump? Did you miss the scenes where it was obvious that Charles was at the very least...very turned off...by Raven's mutation, while he chased skirts around bars?

Raven's character arc in this movie was about a girl who grew to lose respect and even hate someone that she cared for. IT IS OBVIOUS IN THE FILM.
Her arc was about her wanting to be herself. And as for the aforementioned parts that you think I missed, no I caught them, but I also saw the parts where she curled up against him on the couch after she asks him would he date her, and the part where she goes to him before leaving with Magneto. I'm sorry, the admiration between the two is present in spite of the things you bring up whether you want to see it or not and it's something that can't simply be swept under the carpet.

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Old 06-06-2011, 04:37 AM   #36
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I'd like to reiterate that I haven't even seen FC yet, so if I can accept and see Mystique's backstory working for the Rebecca Romjiin version of the character, it should be pretty obvious that there really is no issue despite some people trying to act like there is.

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Old 06-06-2011, 04:38 AM   #37
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I also picked up that he wasn't disgusted by her trueblue form, but that she was naked. I'd also be pretty shocked if my 'foster' sister walked into a room naked. But I can also see how she won't realize this, and think it was her blue form he was upset about, and this will fester. Yes, 40 years is a freaking long time.

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Old 06-06-2011, 04:39 AM   #38
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

@Timstuff I don't know about all that.

He seemed to constantly refer/react to her blue form in a complete negative way.

When he was looking for something to drink in the fridge and suddenly finds Raven there his first reaction is a "GAHH!" kind of yelp.

There is another instance in where he refers to Hanks vaccine as finally curing that "problem" of yours. He was contradictory to his own message and I think after this he probably learned his lesson somewhat.

He still isn't the wise Xavier from the first film series. He's getting there but his treatment of Raven was the proof in the pudding.

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Old 06-06-2011, 04:40 AM   #39
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and during this whole time...Xavier is getting drunk in bars and using mutation as a pick up line to any girl he thinks he might be able to get some action from...

Xavier seemed preoccupied with the idea of mutants hiding their visible mutations and fitting in with society. Raven spent her life with him, and was tremendously ashamed of herself and her mutation. Magneto came along and gave her strength and confidence and told her that she is beautiful. How else could she feel by the time X1 came around???

Oh...and Xavier DID read her mind. That was revealed in the end, and we have no clue how many times he broke his promise to her, but from what he said, it likely wasnt the first time.

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Old 06-06-2011, 04:42 AM   #40
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Mystique is lovable in all of the X movies. She is the favorite character in the franchise for a VERY large percentage of the non-comics reading public...women especially.
She was more of a femme fatale in the trilogy. Her sexiness was augmented by the fact that she was also dangerous. In First Class she does not come across as dangerous, and the dangerous aspect of her character has been replaced by cuteness. I like both characterizations, but clearly she changes a lot during the 30 years between XFC and X1.

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Old 06-06-2011, 04:44 AM   #41
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@Timstuff I don't know about all that.


There is another instance in where he refers to Hanks vaccine as finally curing that "problem" of yours. He was contradictory to his own message and I think after this he probably learned his lesson somewhat.
Exactly.

And when she did something as small as use her power to make her eyes two colors, Charles was appalled. Throughout most of this film, Charles seemed to look at mutations as problems...and in the end he sided with the non-mutants who had just tried to kill them all. OF COURSE Mystique lost all respect for him.

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Old 06-06-2011, 04:49 AM   #42
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@Timstuff I don't know about all that.

He seemed to constantly refer/react to her blue form in a complete negative way.

When he was looking for something to drink in the fridge and suddenly finds Raven there his first reaction is a "GAHH!" kind of yelp.


There is another instance in where he refers to Hanks vaccine as finally curing that "problem" of yours. He was contradictory to his own message and I think after this he probably learned his lesson somewhat.

He still isn't the wise Xavier from the first film series. He's getting there but his treatment of Raven was the proof in the pudding.
Think of it this way-- what would your reaction be if you walked into the kitchen to grab a drink, and you found your sister standing there naked? I'm pretty sure it would be a "GAHH!" kind of yelp, as you described it.

It wasn't the fact that there was a scaly blue woman there, but rather that the girl who he thinks of as his little sister had just exposed herself to him that had Charles so alarmed. Charles thought of Mystique as his younger sister, but Mystique saw of Charles as her best friend. She probably had a crush on him for many years, so obviously their expectations of each other were not lining up, hence why they had such poor communication.

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Old 06-06-2011, 04:52 AM   #43
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Timstuff, where did you get this '30 years' idea from? As I previously noted, we aren't given an exact date for the events of the first film, but even if we assume that it took place in the same year that it was released (2000), there is a time gap of more than 30 years between the events of it and FC (38 to be exact).

Of course, the first film could take place much later on than the year 2000, which is where I got the '40+' figure from.

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Old 06-06-2011, 04:54 AM   #44
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I don't think Charles was ever disgusted by her, I just think he was protective of her and only wanting what's best, and I think she knew it, you only have to look at how they depart at the end, in essence he let her go so she could be herself. They didn't leave on bad terms.

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Old 06-06-2011, 04:55 AM   #45
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We don't know Charles real opinion of her mutation...but it is very clear that she THINKS he is disgusted by it.

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Old 06-06-2011, 04:56 AM   #46
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Exactly.

And when she did something as small as use her power to make her eyes two colors, Charles was appalled. Throughout most of this film, Charles seemed to look at mutations as problems...and in the end he sided with the non-mutants who had just tried to kill them all. OF COURSE Mystique lost all respect for him.
Charles sided on the belief that killing those who attacked them wouldn't solve anything, but just make it worse. He sided with the fact that humanity does have goodness within it, and that they shouldn't give up on that fact. If that makes him a dick in your book...so be it.

Charles seemed to not want Mystique in walking around in her blue form in public because he cared about her, and felt she would be discriminated or attacked because of how she looked. Im not saying he doesn't have faults in his relationship with Raven, he does, but he is ONLY human, there is no such thing as a perfect man. But i feel his relationship with Raven did improve at the end of the film.

Also IF Mystique DID lose all respect for him she would not have kissed him and told that CIA girl to take care of him.

She would have pulled an Anakin and said I HATE YOU, to Charles. Or done something to that affect at the end of First Class.


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Old 06-06-2011, 05:01 AM   #47
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Charles did not side with non-mutants. He sided on the belief that killing those who attacked them wouldn't solve anything, but just make it worse. He sided with the fact that humanity does have goodness within it, and that they shouldn't give up on that fact. If that makes him a dick in your book...so be it.

Charles seemed to not want Mystique in walking around in her blue form in public because he cared about her, and felt she would be discriminated or attacked because of how she looks like. Im not saying he doesn't have faults in his relationship with Raven, he does, but he is ONLY human, there is no such thing as a perfect man. But i feel his relationship with Raven did improve at the end of the film.

Also IF Mystique DID lose all respect for him she would not have kissed him and told that CIA girl to take care of him.

She would have pulled an Anakin and said I HATE YOU, to Charles. Or done something to that affect to Charles at the end of First Class.
So...you're speaking from YOUR VIEW, instead of RAVEN'S VIEW. While we know what Charles motivation was, she clearly viewed him as weak and a sell-out. That is the only reason why Magneto and Charles parted to begin with.

And here's the deal...and this seems tough for people...

Mystique spent her life trying to be more with Charles than he wanted...and due to his own words and actions, she had reason to believe that it was her mutation that caused it. She hated herself and her mutation. Eventually, she found confidence and joined magneto. Over the course of decades, her opinion solidified and became more militant and she realized over the years that she no longer respected Charles, the man who in her opinion was a sell out chump who finds her disgusting.

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Old 06-06-2011, 05:01 AM   #48
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At the moment, the relationship is still pretty solid, more solid than the one with Eric without doubt. When she turns Charles has to be the reason for it, and it has to be a massive moment. It's that simple really, the foundations have been laid a certain way, there's really only one way to go from here.


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Old 06-06-2011, 05:03 AM   #49
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At this point, we don't know the specifics of how Mystique's years of association with Magneto - and presumably clashes with Xavier and his students - contribute to her becoming the character we see in the main films, but that doesn't in and of itself make it implausible for her to evolve into that character based on her FC backstory, at least from my perspective and the perspective of the others who have posted refuting or disagreeing with the assertions of the OP and others.

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Old 06-06-2011, 05:40 AM   #50
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Well, there are three or four decades between First Class and X1. That's a long time. Do you still have absolute love and respect for those you were close to 30 or 40 years ago? Most people these days have no love or respect for people they were involved with a few weeks ago!

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