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Old 06-06-2011, 05:02 AM   #51
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

Mystique: I always thought it was you and me against the world. But no matter how bad the world gets, you don't want to be against it. You want to be a part of it.

I think it's important to note neither Mystique, nor Magneto part on bad terms with Xavier in FC.

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Old 06-06-2011, 05:07 AM   #52
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

Don't forget Magneto has Emma now. She is also a telepathic. She can manipulate her into believing that Charles was in her head (Jean Grey's mental block) all along !

Over the year, she grew more and more hatred towards human and everytime the X-men got in her way. So sacrifice has to be made. She had to kill someone, perhaps a new mutant at X-school.

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Old 06-06-2011, 06:53 AM   #53
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40 years is a long time, and by then Mystique had very much adopted the "any means necessary" approach.

The real question is when did her voice start sounding computerized??

In seriousness, I think they made the decision to give her a normal voice that was more relatable.
I think her voice would change when she 100% is comfortable with herself and her powers. Even by the end of FC she just gets comfortable with her looks but probably still holding back a little since she is so used to talking in that voice for so long.

And for those who take Last Stand as part of this universe, it just makes her the most tragic character with Magneto leaving her after she turns normal.

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Old 06-06-2011, 08:56 AM   #54
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but he is also a sell-out to the people who want to kill mutants.
How is he a sell-out?
I don't know...Xavier had a lot of flaws, especially concerning his "visual prejudice", but turning him into the "bad guy" to justify Raven's attitude is not working for me.

I mean, I clearly understand why she wanted to go with Erik; it made perfect sense. But not at that moment. No way.

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Old 06-06-2011, 09:01 AM   #55
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

It's very easy to explain her motivations, I think someone a while back posted that the brotherhood had a kind of cultish vibe, I can see Mystique over the years really getting into it, and if these prequel movies get going it can easily be explained with Mystique telling Charles that she is doing this for him, that she's creating a better world for them, and that they'll be together again when it's all over, etc.

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Old 06-06-2011, 09:10 AM   #56
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It's very easy to explain her motivations, I think someone a while back posted that the brotherhood had a kind of cultish vibe, I can see Mystique over the years really getting into it
I posted it, I guess!
I really think she had been "brainwashed" somehow when we see her again in X1.
The second time I saw the film, there were those two really young kids talking, and one of them was telling the other "Mystique wasn't like this in the other films...she was really mean!" I thought it was kind of cute.

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Old 06-06-2011, 09:16 AM   #57
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^Awww, that is very cute.

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Old 06-06-2011, 09:20 AM   #58
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I just thought the same! But I think that this relationship Xavier-Mystique will be the theme of a possible sequel! Jennifer did a great Job in this movie and she will do it better in the next movie!

Looking forward to see the evolution of cry baby Mystique into hard core Biatch Mystique!

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Old 06-06-2011, 10:22 AM   #59
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I posted it, I guess!
I really think she had been "brainwashed" somehow when we see her again in X1.
The second time I saw the film, there were those two really young kids talking, and one of them was telling the other "Mystique wasn't like this in the other films...she was really mean!" I thought it was kind of cute.
^ That's why I love it when kids are in the audience. I know some people can't stand it, but I love hearing the reactions of kids when they see movies. Some of them are actually quite perceptive about the story.

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Old 06-06-2011, 10:32 AM   #60
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

I loved the relationship between Charles and Raven. I wasn't expecting it and it took me by surprise, but I ended up enjoying it. This movie made Mystique multi dimensional for me. Also, I agree with the poster above that if you count X-Men 3 in this universe or chronology, then Raven is a pretty tragic character considering Magneto leaves her when she becomes human.

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Old 06-06-2011, 10:37 AM   #61
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

As most people have already said, there's almost 40+ years for Raven to from the one we met in First Class to the one we know and love in the X-Men trilogy.

No one knows what happened to her during those years to make her more intolerant and militant towards humans.

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Old 06-06-2011, 11:13 AM   #62
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And for those who take Last Stand as part of this universe, it just makes her the most tragic character with Magneto leaving her after she turns normal.
I know! I really feel like that was the best possible way to end her story arch with the Brotherhood, especially after seeing First Class. She finally realized what a hypocrite Magneto was and that he was just as bad as the people they were fighting against, and the moment she was "normal" he threw her off the bus-- which was doubly insulting, because the only reason she was hit with a needle for the cure was because she was trying to protect Magneto. It was probably quite akin to a cult member getting shunned and then suddenly realizing that the cult had been using them all along, and that their doctrine was full of crap.

I know a lot of people didn't like X3, but I for one did, and I think that the cure storyline was probably the best one they could have chosen for the bookend on the trilogy. The first film was about Magneto trying to make normal humans into mutants, and so thematically, it was a wise choice to make the closing chapter be about humans trying to cure mutants since that allows the trilogy to have a complete conversation about the subject from both sides of the equation.


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Old 06-06-2011, 11:27 AM   #63
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I loved the relationship between Charles and Raven. I wasn't expecting it and it took me by surprise, but I ended up enjoying it. This movie made Mystique multi dimensional for me. Also, I agree with the poster above that if you count X-Men 3 in this universe or chronology, then Raven is a pretty tragic character considering Magneto leaves her when she becomes human.
Also, if I am allowed to project a little bit of comics plotline in here, something might have happened between her and the demonic Azazel during that time to produce a little blue German baby with his mother's looks and dad's powers.

And the way cults generally work, especially for female members, that experience may be a fairly negative one.

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Old 06-06-2011, 11:33 AM   #64
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I know! I really feel like that was the best possible way to end her story arch with the Brotherhood, especially after seeing First Class. She finally realized what a hypocrite Magneto was and that he was just as bad as the people they were fighting against, and the moment she was "normal" he threw her off the bus-- which was doubly insulting, because the only reason she was hit with a needle for the cure was because she was trying to protect Magneto. It was probably quite akin to a cult member getting shunned and then suddenly realizing that the cult had been using them all along, and that their doctrine was full of crap.
And since it looked like the cure wasnt permanent, if they did do an actual X4 it would be interesting to see her join the x-men if she regained her abilities.

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Old 06-06-2011, 11:40 AM   #65
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Frankly, after seeing it a third time on Sunday, I'm a happy depressed when it comes to First Class and it all has to do with the relationship triangle between Raven, Charles, and Erik.

On my third viewing, I felt really bad for both of them, especially Charles because his naivety in regards to mankind, Erik's words, and more importantly the issue with his sister Raven, is what ultimately cost him his legs and more tragic, the two people he was closest to.

Frankly, Charles and Raven are tragic figures in this whole thing, as well as Erik, but a little less so.

I absolutely adore the apology Charles gives to Raven before she joins Erik's sad. That hit me hard on the third viewing.

Damn it, this film has rocked me and I'm tore up about it because Jennifer Lawrence freaking owned in this film.

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Old 06-06-2011, 12:26 PM   #66
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

Honestly, one of the best things about this movie is the way it creates new layers of emotional complexity in the original trilogy; Mystique's character arc being one of them.

Next time we watch the original movie, that moment where she poisons Cerebro - which used to just be nothing more than a villain invading a hero's hideout - has now become a far more interesting scene showing Mystique's ultimate betrayal of her oldest friend. It demonstrates clearly just how much she's changed over the 40+ years since she was in the mansion herself. Then, as others have said, her final rejection by Magneto in X-Men: The Last Stand really comes full circle in an incredibly tragic way.

Great stuff!

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Old 06-06-2011, 12:27 PM   #67
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How is he a sell-out?
I don't know...Xavier had a lot of flaws, especially concerning his "visual prejudice", but turning him into the "bad guy" to justify Raven's attitude is not working for me.

I mean, I clearly understand why she wanted to go with Erik; it made perfect sense. But not at that moment. No way.
How is he a sell-out...I dont know...I dont know the guy...BUT RAVEN DOES...and in HER VIEWPOINT...he was a sell-out.

Magneto started his own group SPECIFICALLY because he viewed Charles as a man not willing to do what it took to allow mutants to survive and thrive...and Raven joined Magneto's group...so in THEIR VIEW....Charles is practically a traitor.

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Old 06-06-2011, 12:45 PM   #68
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Did you miss the part where Charles spent years supporting the idea of her hiding her mutation? Did you miss the part where Charles repeatedly sided with the people who wanted to kill them, like the world's biggest chump? Did you miss the scenes where it was obvious that Charles was at the very least...very turned off...by Raven's mutation, while he chased skirts around bars?

Raven's character arc in this movie was about a girl who grew to lose respect and even hate someone that she cared for. IT IS OBVIOUS IN THE FILM.
They're practically brother and sister though.
I don't know many people who see themselves having a sexual relationship with their sister...biological or not .
Not to mention if I saw my sister naked I'd be uncomfortable as hell too.

Secondly, Charles wasn't ashamed of Mystique. Again being her older brother, he is going to be very protective of her. He doesn't want her to get hurt or turn into a government experiment. This is most likely the reason why he probably prefers her to stay in human form when out in public. Notice he doesn't mind and is perfectly comfortable when she shows her mutant form in the privacy of their home

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Old 06-06-2011, 12:51 PM   #69
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They're practically brother and sister though.
I don't know many people who see themselves having a sexual relationship with their sister...biological or not .
Not to mention if I saw my sister naked I'd be uncomfortable as hell too.

Secondly, Charles wasn't ashamed of Mystique. Again being her older brother, he is going to be very protective of her. He doesn't want her to get hurt or turn into a government experiment. This is most likely the reason why he probably prefers her to stay in human form when out in public. Notice he doesn't mind and is perfectly comfortable when she shows her mutant form in the privacy of their home
I can think of one person who saw her brother in a sexual way...MYSTIQUE.

You guys keep saying that Charles wasn't ashamed of Mystique, like that means a hill of beans. SHE THOUGHT HE WAS...and that played into her later decisions.

We are talking about MYSTIQUE and why SHE made certain decisions and HER mindset. What the truth was or what you think about it is worthless to the conversation. SHE THOUGHT HE WAS DISGUSTED BY HER. Whether he really was or not is meaningless...she based her decisions on what SHE thought.

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Old 06-06-2011, 12:54 PM   #70
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Totally agree, Sentinel.

Charles' undoing when it comes to Raven has to do with not fully understanding what her mutation is like for.

But, it was out of love and protection that he treated her in that way. She was caged, when you sit back and think on it. Remember the sequences in the Blackbird. Beast spins the Blackbird and the first thing Charles does is press his arm against Raven, to make sure she doesn't fall out of the seat. Then, when Raven wants to join the fight, Charles won't let her. It's not out spite. It's out of love for his sister that he so desperately wants to protect. The problem with Charles is that he's got blinders on when it comes to her and how his attitude towards her mutation isn't helping.

He just doesn't see it. That's why it's heartbreaking when he tells her that he "promised her a great many things" as he kiss her hand.

God, that scene is still upsetting.

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Old 06-06-2011, 12:55 PM   #71
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I think both you, Heretic and Sentinel, are sort of saying the same thing. Again, the Raven/Charles relationship is very complex in the film. It's just depends on how you read the dialogue and the performances.

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Old 06-06-2011, 12:59 PM   #72
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It's obvious Charles and Mystique both take a 'bullit of forgetfullness' in the sequels.

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Old 06-06-2011, 01:01 PM   #73
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Again...Raven tried for years to develop a deeper relationship with Charles...and was rejected. In her mind, this was because Charles was disgusted by her mutation. This is clearly spelled out in the movie. Finally, Magneto tells her that her mutation is what makes her beautiful, so she approaches Charles again, naked and in her natural state...and he about dies when he sees her and has her cover up. She believes that Charles...this person she has wanted more from for years...is not only disgusted by her...but he is also a sell-out to the people who want to kill mutants.

It's...just so obvious how she ended up where she is in X1...this does not in any way seem like a discrepancy.
Great post.


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Old 06-06-2011, 01:01 PM   #74
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They're practically brother and sister though.
I don't know many people who see themselves having a sexual relationship with their sister...biological or not .
Not to mention if I saw my sister naked I'd be uncomfortable as hell too.

Secondly, Charles wasn't ashamed of Mystique. Again being her older brother, he is going to be very protective of her. He doesn't want her to get hurt or turn into a government experiment. This is most likely the reason why he probably prefers her to stay in human form when out in public. Notice he doesn't mind and is perfectly comfortable when she shows her mutant form in the privacy of their home
Exactly. Charles wanted Mystique to hide in public because he wanted to protect her, not because he thought she was ugly. I think it's quite probable that she saw his protectiveness, combined with his lack of sexual interest in her, and misinterpreted it as him thinking that she was unattractive, even if Charles actually did think she was pretty and was comfortable with how she looked.

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Old 06-06-2011, 01:04 PM   #75
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I recently joined a friend of mine at his house...big party. One of the guests turned out to be a girl I had a spicy and ultimately badly ended friendship with. Guess what? NEITHER OF US MENTIONED IT. It was no one's business but ours, so we didn't bring it up.

I was not shot by a memory erasing bullet...I just chose not to bring up my bad ancient history.

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