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Old 06-06-2011, 02:05 PM   #76
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

Well, I don't think Charles is disgusted with her mutation. To him, his sister is naked in front of him. But, she reads his reaction differently.

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Old 06-06-2011, 02:19 PM   #77
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I recently joined a friend of mine at his house...big party. One of the guests turned out to be a girl I had a spicy and ultimately badly ended friendship with. Guess what? NEITHER OF US MENTIONED IT. It was no one's business but ours, so we didn't bring it up.

I was not shot by a memory erasing bullet...I just chose not to bring up my bad ancient history.
What!? You didn't tell Cyclops, Jean, Storm or Wolverine that you had 'thang' for one of their mortal enemies? What kind of monster are you?

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Old 06-06-2011, 02:28 PM   #78
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Again...Raven tried for years to develop a deeper relationship with Charles...and was rejected. In her mind, this was because Charles was disgusted by her mutation. This is clearly spelled out in the movie. Finally, Magneto tells her that her mutation is what makes her beautiful, so she approaches Charles again, naked and in her natural state...and he about dies when he sees her and has her cover up. She believes that Charles...this person she has wanted more from for years...is not only disgusted by her...but he is also a sell-out to the people who want to kill mutants.

It's...just so obvious how she ended up where she is in X1...this does not in any way seem like a discrepancy.
Brilliantly worded

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Old 06-06-2011, 02:55 PM   #79
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How is he a sell-out...I dont know...I dont know the guy...BUT RAVEN DOES...and in HER VIEWPOINT...he was a sell-out.

Magneto started his own group SPECIFICALLY because he viewed Charles as a man not willing to do what it took to allow mutants to survive and thrive...and Raven joined Magneto's group...so in THEIR VIEW....Charles is practically a traitor.
What?! Charles was offering a safe place for mutants to live. How is this considered treason? Raven and Erik never thought Charles was a traitor, or that he didn't want mutants "to survive and thrive". This is ridiculous. Hell, when Mystique approached Charles in the kitchen she even said "I don't know what would have happened to me if you hadn't taken me in" or something.

Plus Charles wasn't disgusted by her appearence - it worried him what humans could do to her. He was shocked when she entered the kitchen because, well, it was his sister naked in front of him. It's as simple as that.

You seem to be changing Charles' personality so that it looks like as if he had been mistreating Raven for years, and so it's perfectly justified she would leave him. She left him based on her own convictions, not because she hated him or thought he was a traitor.

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Old 06-06-2011, 03:14 PM   #80
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What?! Charles was offering a safe place for mutants to live. How is this considered treason? Raven and Erik never thought Charles was a traitor, or that he didn't want mutants "to survive and thrive". This is ridiculous. Hell, when Mystique approached Charles in the kitchen she even said "I don't know what would have happened to me if you hadn't taken me in" or something.

Plus Charles wasn't disgusted by her appearence - it worried him what humans could do to her. He was shocked when she entered the kitchen because, well, it was his sister naked in front of him. It's as simple as that.

You seem to be changing Charles' personality so that it looks like as if he had been mistreating Raven for years, and so it's perfectly justified she would leave him. She left him based on her own convictions, not because she hated him or thought he was a traitor.
No, I'm not changing Charles at all. Im explaining what THE BAD GUYS THINK OF HIM. You, on the other hand, are explaining what YOU think of him...and why the bad guys should agree with you. The problem is, THEY DONT.

Here's a REAL story...no kidding, this actually happened to me years ago...

I was in the kitchen cutting a tomato for a sandwich. My mom was in the room and collapsed due to a medical issue. I walked over to her, and then my brother walked in. I was standing over her, with a knife, and she was collapsed on the ground. My brother, enraged, grabbed a baseball bat and absolutely DESTROYED me with it...because...as far as he was concerned...I had stabbed my mom.

Now...at the end of this situation...was I hit with a bat??? Yes, I was. I was innocent as can be...but yet my brother's perception was that I was guilty...so he hit me.

Raven was the same way...she perceived Charles to be guilty of the things I've said in this thread. IT DOESNT MATTER IF YOU OR I AGREE OR IF HE IS ACTUALLY GUILTY. All that matters is that SHE thought he was, and then she acted accordingly.

I can't believe that this is so hard for people to understand...RAVEN THOUGHT THAT CHARLES WAS DISGUSTED BY HER AND A SELL OUT...IT DOESNT MATTER IF SHE WAS RIGHT OR WRONG.

Can we please stop using the "but Charles didn't really think that way" argument?? It's just silly and doesn't impact Raven's decision in any way.

Heck, even Charles admitted that he had kind of screwed her over in the end of the movie...

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Old 06-06-2011, 03:32 PM   #81
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Again...Raven tried for years to develop a deeper relationship with Charles...and was rejected. In her mind, this was because Charles was disgusted by her mutation. This is clearly spelled out in the movie. Finally, Magneto tells her that her mutation is what makes her beautiful, so she approaches Charles again, naked and in her natural state...and he about dies when he sees her and has her cover up. She believes that Charles...this person she has wanted more from for years...is not only disgusted by her...but he is also a sell-out to the people who want to kill mutants.

It's...just so obvious how she ended up where she is in X1...this does not in any way seem like a discrepancy.


i agree with this. its obvious from the films that mystique was deeply in love with eric. he accepted her in a form that most people find replusive. also, notice towards in the kitchen conversation how mystique compared her relationship with charles to that of a little boy having a cool pet. she may end up thinking years later thats exactly what there relationship really was.

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Old 06-06-2011, 03:49 PM   #82
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I hope we got more answers for Raven's change in character if a sequel to First Class is ever made.

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Old 06-06-2011, 03:57 PM   #83
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Heretic is still right on the money.

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Old 06-06-2011, 04:15 PM   #84
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This was one of the many changes that I think not only worked for this movie individually, but was just plain better than the comic origins IMO. It made her more a well rounded person than the previous trilogy, obviously, but I think it also makes her far more interesting that I ever found her to be in the comics as well.

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Old 06-06-2011, 06:40 PM   #85
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This was one of the many changes that I think not only worked for this movie individually, but was just plain better than the comic origins IMO. It made her more a well rounded person than the previous trilogy, obviously, but I think it also makes her far more interesting that I ever found her to be in the comics as well.
Agreed, but it also has a downside to. Because we know the innocent and good Raven introduced in First Class is going to "die" sometime between FC and the X-men trilogy. That means any future sequels to FC would likely show Raven going into further depravity and becoming something that Charles can't see as a sister anymore.

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Old 06-06-2011, 06:49 PM   #86
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i agree with this. its obvious from the films that mystique was deeply in love with eric. he accepted her in a form that most people find replusive. also, notice towards in the kitchen conversation how mystique compared her relationship with charles to that of a little boy having a cool pet. she may end up thinking years later thats exactly what there relationship really was.
I don't think that Mystique was in love with Magneto, per-say-- she was obviously crushing on him when she was young, and that grew into a deep loyalty that got her to stay with him during the following decades, but I think that she respected him as a leader moreso than that she actually shared a deep emotional bond with him. The bond was there, as well as an attraction but it was more on Mystique's side than Magneto's since he was clearly not as loyal to her as she was to him.

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Old 06-06-2011, 07:02 PM   #87
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I don't know why some people in this thread are saying that Charles was disgusted by Raven's natural form, he wanted her in her human form in public for different reasons.

If he really despised what her appearance looked like, the scene at the beginning of the film between them would have gone like....

Charles: YUCK you are DISGUSTING MONSTER, get the FRAK OUT OF MY HOUSE.

Or something similar to that.

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Old 06-06-2011, 07:04 PM   #88
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I don't think that Mystique was in love with Magneto, per-say-- she was obviously crushing on him when she was young, and that grew into a deep loyalty that got her to stay with him during the following decades, but I think that she respected him as a leader moreso than that she actually shared a deep emotional bond with him. The bond was there, as well as an attraction but it was more on Mystique's side than Magneto's since he was clearly not as loyal to her as she was to him.
There is so much truth to that, it is also why she becomes pissed in X3 when he ditched her for what she was.

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Old 06-06-2011, 07:23 PM   #89
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I don't know why some people in this thread are saying that Charles was disgusted by Raven's natural form, he wanted her in her human form in public for different reasons.

If he really despised what her appearance looked like, the scene at the beginning of the film between them would have gone like....

Charles: YUCK you are DISGUSTING MONSTER, get the FRAK OUT OF MY HOUSE.

Or something similar to that.
No one is saying that at all.

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Old 06-06-2011, 07:25 PM   #90
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Selective reading.

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Old 06-06-2011, 07:29 PM   #91
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I can think of one person who saw her brother in a sexual way...MYSTIQUE.

You guys keep saying that Charles wasn't ashamed of Mystique, like that means a hill of beans. SHE THOUGHT HE WAS...and that played into her later decisions.

We are talking about MYSTIQUE and why SHE made certain decisions and HER mindset. What the truth was or what you think about it is worthless to the conversation. SHE THOUGHT HE WAS DISGUSTED BY HER. Whether he really was or not is meaningless...she based her decisions on what SHE thought.
Well I was never talking about Mystique's rationale behind her decision to leave Charles. Its quite clear there is a misunderstanding between the two. I was just responding to your post that I quoted which sounded like you were blaming Charles for mistreating her.

I think everyone here agrees that Mystique misinterpreted Charles's intentions...and I don't think anybody has been debating that idea.

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Old 06-06-2011, 07:30 PM   #92
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people in this thread really have reading comprehension problems. heretic's point is easy to understand.

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Old 06-06-2011, 07:39 PM   #93
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Not really. This quote was off putting...particularly the bolded portion. Its possible that people were responding to this because if you read the thread nobody is saying "No I disagree...Mystique did not have a misunderstanding". Theres clearly a misunderstanding between them. I think people are addressing two different ideas

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Did you miss the part where Charles spent years supporting the idea of her hiding her mutation? Did you miss the part where Charles repeatedly sided with the people who wanted to kill them, like the world's biggest chump? Did you miss the scenes where it was obvious that Charles was at the very least...very turned off...by Raven's mutation, while he chased skirts around bars?

Raven's character arc in this movie was about a girl who grew to lose respect and even hate someone that she cared for. IT IS OBVIOUS IN THE FILM.

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Old 06-06-2011, 08:06 PM   #94
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Id be very turned off if I saw my mom naked. That doesnt mean that she isnt a saint who can bake an awesome pie...it just means that I'm very turned off by the idea of her being naked.

Most of us see Charles as thinking of her as a sister while he goes chasing skirts. Mystique took it as disgust at the idea of her true form.

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Old 06-06-2011, 08:24 PM   #95
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in the world of comics villains go good, heroes go evil. Like the wrestling federation. Haha.
Polaris going evil.
Rogue starting out as evil and then joining X-men in the 1980s.
White Queen as the best example.
Colossus as hero than joining up Magneto's cause, misguidedly after his sister died.

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Old 06-06-2011, 11:50 PM   #96
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No one is saying that at all.
Sorry then, i must have misread some of what people were saying.

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Old 06-06-2011, 11:55 PM   #97
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Selective reading.
You do this a lot, btw.

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Old 06-06-2011, 11:58 PM   #98
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Cool.

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Old 06-07-2011, 12:09 AM   #99
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

Can everyone please quit sniping at each other? Thank you.

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Old 06-07-2011, 12:13 AM   #100
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

I understand the OP's point.

But I wouldn't describe this issue as "inconsistent"-- requiring explanation.. as much as I would call this tale of two Ravens simply "tragic"-- requiring sympathy.

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