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Old 06-07-2011, 12:28 AM   #101
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Most of us see Charles as thinking of her as a sister while he goes chasing skirts. Mystique took it as disgust at the idea of her true form.
Couldn't Raven put heself in his position a little bit, then? If he told her "you're like a sister to me", why wouldn't she believe him, and think otherwise he was disgusted by her true form?
Xavier never really understood what she wanted (she clearly needed him to see her as a woman, not a little sister), but she failed in undertsanding him too.

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Old 06-07-2011, 01:03 AM   #102
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Couldn't Raven put heself in his position a little bit, then? If he told her "you're like a sister to me", why wouldn't she believe him, and think otherwise he was disgusted by her true form?
Xavier never really understood what she wanted (she clearly needed him to see her as a woman, not a little sister), but she failed in undertsanding him too.
So they are BOTH to blame in failing to understand each other to a degree. I kinda agree with that.

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Old 06-07-2011, 01:10 AM   #103
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She could have, but didn't. People are selfish, and very few people look beyond their own needs.

Like I've mentioned before...in the end when Raven said "you promised to never read my mind" Xavier said something to the effect of "I've done many things to be sorry for" or something like that. IT makes you wonder that maybe he has been reading her mind the whole time...or maybe he did something to manipulate her like he did with Jean or SOMETHING.

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Old 06-07-2011, 01:56 AM   #104
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Couldn't Raven put heself in his position a little bit, then? If he told her "you're like a sister to me", why wouldn't she believe him, and think otherwise he was disgusted by her true form?
Xavier never really understood what she wanted (she clearly needed him to see her as a woman, not a little sister), but she failed in undertsanding him too.
Well because she's a woman, and more often than not, women operate off of emotion. And even more than that, they're sensitive about how they look.

In the bar scene near the beginning, we see her obviously get irritated by Xavier's pursuit of another woman. Their relationship was different from the start. Xavier was happy to find he wasn't alone and took her in, looking at her as a little sister. She on the other hand, subtly, liked Charles in a more forthright manner, or at least wanted him to see her as an attractive woman in her own right.

Once Erik gives her the confidence to stop hiding her true self, she still gives Charles a chance to tell her she's beautiful too. Yeah, it was weird for him to see her naked in her true appearance, but for her, she never looked at him exclusively as a big brother, but someone who potentially saved her life, and who she had a deeper connection with.

For her, he's the one who should have told her what Erik did, a long time ago. It also didn't help that the other guy she became attracted to, Hank, basically was even worse in regards to her being sensitive.

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Old 06-07-2011, 01:57 AM   #105
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People change, Mystique is not an exception.

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Old 06-07-2011, 02:31 AM   #106
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People change, Mystique is not an exception.
Of course people can change, and Raven is NO exception. However it is true that it's hard to believe (doesn't mean i don't believe it) that she changed so radically, making it look like there are 2 Ravens in the franchise.

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Old 06-07-2011, 02:32 AM   #107
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I think that final scene may have just needed a slight amount of anger/betrayal or "I am leaving forever" angst out of her to really sell it.

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Old 06-07-2011, 02:44 AM   #108
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I think that final scene may have just needed a slight amount of anger/betrayal or "I am leaving forever" angst out of her to really sell it.
Agreed, if that was the case, this thread wouldn't exist. If what you said happened, i would have thought in the theater "So that's how she became a psycho in the other films". But since that didn't happen, and her humanity was shown to Charles at the end, it was hard to see the same innocent girl as her future fraked up psycho, i hope this question i have is answered in sequels to FC.

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Old 06-07-2011, 02:54 AM   #109
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It was a tone issue.

She walked over to him and he admitted that he was reading her mind....and even admitted that he had many other things to apologize for (again, this is my memory of the scene, if he didnt word it that way, please correct me)...she could have...and in fact possibly should have realized/wrongly thought that he was in her mind all those years and never eased her mind, never gave her comfort or eased her self esteem issues...a typical girl of the age she is supposed to be would likely angrily storm off.

The way it was portrayed was one of old loving friends parting and being sad about it. Not sure that was the best choice for clarity...even though i still found it clear.

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Old 06-07-2011, 02:59 AM   #110
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

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Of course people can change, and Raven is NO exception. However it is true that it's hard to believe (doesn't mean i don't believe it) that she changed so radically, making it look like there are 2 Ravens in the franchise.
I don't see how it's radical when there is 30-40 years in-between FC and X1.

Not only is it plausible that Raven would transform so dramatically in 40 years...it's a certainty given the fact that she took on Erik as her mentor, it's fairly reasonable to see how she ended up the person she is in the other X films.

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Old 06-07-2011, 03:03 AM   #111
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Of course people can change, and Raven is NO exception. However it is true that it's hard to believe (doesn't mean i don't believe it) that she changed so radically, making it look like there are 2 Ravens in the franchise.
Radically?

I think you people are just ignoring the fact that XFC is set in the 60s and X1-X3 are set in the late 90s to mid 00s. The gap is more than 20 years.

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Old 06-07-2011, 04:00 AM   #112
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Radically?

I think you people are just ignoring the fact that XFC is set in the 60s and X1-X3 are set in the late 90s to mid 00s. The gap is more than 20 years.
O i know that fact, but can't we just agree to disagree about the whole issue of whether it is odd for Raven to change so much? To me at this moment, it seems odd, however if a good explanation (other then the fact that she is on Magneto's side) is given in future x-men films, i would change my mind about this issue that were arguing about.

Of course the real reason for Raven's radical change from FC to X-men trilogy, is because when the films were made, Mystique was never meant to be a "human" character you could sympathies with, she was meant to be a cold bastard, and that whole adopted sister thing, never existed.

However FC was better then i thought it was, so im sure the writers could make a reasonable explanation in future sequels into why Raven went wacko.

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Old 06-07-2011, 04:22 AM   #113
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

I think anything you know from before this movie you mine as well throw it out the window. This felt more like a reboot than a actual prequel to the original X-men trilogy.

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Old 06-07-2011, 05:51 AM   #114
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I think anything you know from before this movie you mine as well throw it out the window. This felt more like a reboot than a actual prequel to the original X-men trilogy.
Yes it did feel like a reboot, however if you noticed, there were several continuity nods to the other X-men films, and it has been CONFIRMED by the creators that it is a prequel to the other films.

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Old 06-07-2011, 05:52 AM   #115
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Did you guys forget the fact that there were 2 serums made ? One for Beast and one for Mystique ? Beast left her bedroom and injected himself with it, while Raven presumably kept it.

After she came out and perhaps decide to use the serum to herself, it will enhance her power (change in her voice) and gives her acrobatic ability and agility, not to mention intelligence and youth.

This is X-men universe. Anything is possible !

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Old 06-07-2011, 07:18 AM   #116
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Yes it did feel like a reboot, however if you noticed, there were several continuity nods to the other X-men films, and it has been CONFIRMED by the creators that it is a prequel to the other films.
And one of the creators said Wolverine is not in the film.

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Old 06-07-2011, 08:06 AM   #117
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Default Re: The Tale of Two Ravens

Xavier blatantly uses the term 'in the future' during his opening narration of the first X-Men film, and it's not normally common usage for that phrase to be used to describe present events. However, aside from that, there really isn't anything that prevents the film from taking place in the year it was released (2000), which would also retroactively place X2 and The Last Stand as being set in the years in which they were released (2002 and 2006, respectively), meaning that there would be a period of 38 years between FC and the first film.

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Old 06-07-2011, 09:02 AM   #118
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It was a tone issue.
She walked over to him and he admitted that he was reading her mind....and even admitted that he had many other things to apologize for (again, this is my memory of the scene, if he didnt word it that way, please correct me)... she could have...and in fact possibly should have realized/wrongly thought that he was in her mind all those years and never eased her mind, never gave her comfort or eased her self esteem issues...a typical girl of the age she is supposed to be would likely angrily storm off.
She said "You promissed me you wouldn't read my mind" and Charles said "I promissed you many things." - or something similar. I don't remember him ever saying "I apologize", but maybe I'm wrong. I'll have to watch the movie again.

I think it's wrong to mix the Charles of First Class with the Charles who can be manipulative, even a prick, which has been happening for sometime now in the comics. It's quite clear - unless I saw a totally different movie - that FC Charles is maybe nšive and a bit arrogant, but he had a good heart and cared for his friends in a selfless way. He put his life in danger for Erik quite a few times - and not because he thought that he could use Erik to obtain some kind of advantage. Unlike Erik himself, btw.

So, it makes it really hard to believe that he had been manipulating and using Raven all those years. Unless the filmmakers decide to show a shady side of Xavier in the next film, which would certainly disappoint me. It seems that it's cool these days for a fictional character to be manipulative, shady or just plain mean. I very much prefer the FC version of a nšive, idealist Charles who has human flaws, but would never be a prick (especially to his friends).

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The way it was portrayed was one of old loving friends parting and being sad about it. Not sure that was the best choice for clarity...even though i still found it clear.
The way it was showed in the film...Raven seemed to care about Charles, and then just left him there. Following her through the film, even if she was mad with him for not helping her with her appearence issues, the way she abandoned him was just awful - she really seemed to suddenly turn into a totally different character.
Like I said many times, I can totally understand her leaving him to be with Erik, but not at that moment, the worst moment in Charles' life. The same goes to Erik btw, but at least he hadn't known Charles since they were kids.

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Old 06-07-2011, 09:13 AM   #119
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She could have, but didn't. People are selfish, and very few people look beyond their own needs.

Like I've mentioned before...in the end when Raven said "you promised to never read my mind" Xavier said something to the effect of "I've done many things to be sorry for" or something like that. IT makes you wonder that maybe he has been reading her mind the whole time...or maybe he did something to manipulate her like he did with Jean or SOMETHING.
Xavier actually says "I've promised you a great many things I'm afraid. I'm sorry".

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Old 06-07-2011, 10:09 AM   #120
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She and Erik leave him to die in Cerebro, as Stryker's base crumbles around him.
Incorrect. They didn't know yet that the base was crumbling. Plus...the X-Men were there to save Charles. Magneto knew they would find him eventually.

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Old 06-07-2011, 10:18 AM   #121
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People constantly make this mistake for some reason but Magneto was very much aware of the collapse. Cyclops had already damaged the generators that kept the Dam from collapsing.

Magneto and Mystique know that the thing will come crashing down thus them rushing to get to Xavier.

They weren't planning on killing him but they had no intention in saving him fully knowing the Dam was going to collapse.

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Old 06-07-2011, 10:58 AM   #122
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The dam was only leaking and the only thing it showed with any characters being aware of the issue was Stryker. That is why he got out of there after looking at the pressure valves. Magneto and Mystique were in no hurry at all until Charles started to kill all the mutants. They then simply strutted out. They weren't rushing or running.

Would they not save Charles if it meant getting their mission done? Yes. Did they purposely leave Charles in there to die because they knew the dam was crashing? No. The only characters that knew of the danger were Stryker and then Wolverine after Stryker told him.

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Old 06-07-2011, 04:28 PM   #123
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The dam was only leaking and the only thing it showed with any characters being aware of the issue was Stryker. That is why he got out of there after looking at the pressure valves. Magneto and Mystique were in no hurry at all until Charles started to kill all the mutants. They then simply strutted out. They weren't rushing or running.

Would they not save Charles if it meant getting their mission done? Yes. Did they purposely leave Charles in there to die because they knew the dam was crashing? No. The only characters that knew of the danger were Stryker and then Wolverine after Stryker told him.
On top of that, people act like feelings and emotions don't change over years, let alone decades. I don't know how old some of you are, but I have plenty of former friends I considered family that now, I wouldn't waste two seconds of time with. It's just how it is sometimes.

If I'm Magneto/Mystique, after dealing with Xavier for decades and constantly having him and his band of misfits foiling my plots for world domination, yeah, I'd probably have a different set of feelings for him at that point. Drastically different.

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Old 06-07-2011, 05:28 PM   #124
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On top of that, people act like feelings and emotions don't change over years, let alone decades. I don't know how old some of you are, but I have plenty of former friends I considered family that now, I wouldn't waste two seconds of time with. It's just how it is sometimes.

If I'm Magneto/Mystique, after dealing with Xavier for decades and constantly having him and his band of misfits foiling my plots for world domination, yeah, I'd probably have a different set of feelings for him at that point. Drastically different.
I never said that peoples emotions can't change over the years, it can, and it happened with Raven. Im just having a hard time in seeing the Raven of FC as the Raven of X1 because of their changes in personality. Yes i know the change DID happen, i just feel it odd when you see Raven at the end of FC, with her humanity intact, to her next chronological appearance in X1 as a psycho.

It's like the appearance of Anakin Skywalker as a young innocent boy in Episode 1. After seeing that film, i did have a hard time in seeing him as the same character as the monster that became Darth Vader, however, in that case i knew there would be two more films which would show his depravity into becoming Darth Vader. On the other hand, i don't know if sequels will ever be made to FC, and therefore it is a possibility we won't get any new info on seeing how Raven became what she is in X1.

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Old 06-07-2011, 06:48 PM   #125
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How is Raven a psycho in X1??

She is a highly skilled, very dedicated, very brave soldier in an army that...all things considered...are RIGHT in many of their stances (humanity WILL try to exterminate them...they were proven right in First Class).

That isn't psychotic...it's just a difference of opinion.

Again...from her and Magneto's opinion, Charles is the idiot. Humanity tries to kill them over and over and Charles just shrugs and says "I'll keep hoping that they stop trying to kill me, and I'll get mutants to hide themselves and do whatever is necessary to make life as easy and comfortable as possible for those who want us dead".

It's not far fetched to assume that Charles is the insane one.

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