TDK's Joker: The best film villain of all time?

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by TheBat812

I'd say in both performance and in terms of what the character does for the movie (in terms of visceral and figurative/thematic levels), TDK's Joker is certainly toward the top of all-time villains.

Easily

[Kryptonian Warrior]

Deleted

[Thebumwhowalks]

Originally Posted by raybia

Oh I agree. I related it to Raiders as in how Indiana Jones was portrayed in the beginning as this bigger than life hero, he was incorruptible. Imagine if by The Last Crusade if Indy joined the Nazi's? It unimaginable.

That's the way Anakin should have been portrayed. We all knew that Anakin was going to turn to the dark side but his characterization should have been such that when it happen it still should have shocked us.

So, I guess you are just randomly plucking Indy from a hat there, for no particular reason, but incorruptable? From 'Raiders of the Lost ark':

Marion: "I was a child, it was wrong, and you knew it!"

Indiana Jones: "Ahh, you knew what you were doing."

According to the wiki page on the characters, Indy started a relationship with Marion when she was 15 years old, and he was 10 yrs her senior, so I guess Indy fans must just blip over the downright wrong aspects of his characterisation if it suits them.

[raybia]

Originally Posted by Thebumwhowalks

So, I guess you are just randomly plucking Indy from a hat there, for no particular reason, but incorruptable? From 'Raiders of the Lost ark':

Marion: "I was a child, it was wrong, and you knew it!"

Indiana Jones: "Ahh, you knew what you were doing."

According to the wiki page on the characters, Indy started a relationship with Marion when she was 15 years old, and he was 10 yrs her senior, so I guess Indy fans must just blip over the downright wrong aspects of his characterisation if it suits them.

An incorruptable hero doesn't necessarily mean that he was a saint. A 25 year old guy having a relationship with a 15 year girl still isn't the same as renouncing his American citizenship, becoming a Nazi and Hitler's right hand man and then assisting towards the genocide towards a race of people.

Thats the equivalent of what Anakin did when he joined the dark side.

So I think its clear what I'm trying to say. Don't get it? Then I'll use Elliot Ness as an example. Anakin should have been portrayed as an "Untouchable", the quintessential hero.

It would have made his conversion to the dark side that more shocking and heartbreaking.

[OsGom]

To me . . . Hannibal Lecter best movie villain all time. He was even worse in the books.

But I guess watching your sister get eaten might do that to you.

[roach]

Originally Posted by OsGom

To me . . . Hannibal Lecter best movie villain all time. He was even worse in the books.

But I guess watching your sister get eaten might do that to you.

In fact Anthony Hopkins won the Oscar for his role and he only appeared in the movie for 16 minutes.
Other villains I'd put above Joker
Darth Vader
The shark from Jaws
Norman Bates
Wicked Witch of the West
Verbal Kint (Usual Suspects)
Dracula
Alonzo Harris(Training Day)

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by roach

In fact Anthony Hopkins won the Oscar for his role and he only appeared in the movie for 16 minutes.
Other villains I'd put above Joker
Darth Vader
The shark from Jaws
Norman Bates
Wicked Witch of the West
Verbal Kint (Usual Suspects)
Dracula
Alonzo Harris(Training Day)

The only one I agree with is Dracula, and that's because several great actors have immortalized him on screen. The rest don't measure up to the Joker. Especially the shark from Jaws lol.

[roach]

Yes the shark from Jaws...who had such an impact on movie goes that beach attendance went way down that summer.
Go up to anyone and hum the first couple of bars to the Jaws theme and they'll know what you are singing.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by roach

Yes the shark from Jaws...who had such an impact on movie goes that beach attendance went way down that summer.

Fatal Attraction apparently scared the hell out of married men straying from their wives for one night stands back in 1987. I still wouldn't classify Glenn Close's Alex Forest as one of the best villains.

Go up to anyone and hum the first couple of bars to the Jaws theme and they'll know what you are singing.

Call a woman a bunny boiler and they'll know what you mean, too. Infamy doesn't always equate to quality, IMO.

[Franklin Richards]

Originally Posted by Franklin Richards

Here's AFI's Top 20


Dr. Hannibal Lecter (Anthony Hopkins) in The Silence of the Lambs (1991)
Norman Bates (Anthony Perkins) in Psycho (1960)
Darth Vader (David Prowse/James Earl Jones) in The Empire Strikes Back (1980)
The Wicked Witch of the West (Margaret Hamilton) in The Wizard of Oz (1939)
Nurse Ratched (Louise Fletcher) in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (1975)
Mr. Potter (Lionel Barrymore) in It's A Wonderful Life (1946)
Alex Forrest (Glenn Close) in Fatal Attraction (1987)
Phyllis Dietrichson (Barbara Stanwyck) in Double Indemnity (1944)
Regan MacNeil (Satan) (Linda Blair) in The Exorcist (1973)
The Queen (voice of Lucille LaVerne) in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (1937)
Michael Corleone (Al Pacino) in The Godfather, Part II (1974)
Alex DeLarge (Malcolm McDowell) in A Clockwork Orange (1971)
HAL 9000 (voice of Douglas Rain) in 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968)
The Alien (Bolaji Badejo) in Alien (1979)
Amon Goeth (Ralph Fiennes) in Schindler's List (1993)
Noah Cross (John Huston) in Chinatown (1974)
Annie Wilkes (Kathy Bates) in Misery (1990)
The Shark in Jaws (1975)
Captain Bligh (Charles Laughton) in Mutiny on the Bounty (1935)
Man in Bambi (1942)

Yes... she is.

[roach]

the thing that makes a great villain is that long after the movie is over this character is still scaring the crap out of us...they make an impact on film...they captivate everyone

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Franklin Richards

Yes... she is.

With all due respect to the AFI, they're just another opinion, like the Oscars. Like others there on their list like Regan McNeal, the Man from Bambi, and the Queen from Snow White, I don't think for a second that they are anywhere near the greatest villains of cinema.

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

Those AFI lists are cool, but they're the same lists that said Star Wars is the 11th greatest movie of all time, but The Empire Strikes Back is nowhere on that list.

[roach]

Originally Posted by The Joker

With all due respect to the AFI, they're just another opinion, like the Oscars. Like others there on their list like Regan McNeal, the Man from Bambi, and the Queen from Snow White, I don't think for a second that they are anywhere near the greatest villains of cinema.

thats all we are doing is talking our opinions

[Ironhorse75]

Originally Posted by Doomed_hero

I think if we are talking in recent years he is not even the best. Bill the Butcher or Anton Chigurh should fight for that honor

Can't believe it took 7 pages for someone to mention DDL's Butcher.

[CConn]

Yeah, I'd only say guys like Dracula, Vader, and maybe the Wicked Witch of the West are better than ledger.

Jaws is great, but come on, let's show Ledger some respect. Jaws was a prop. He didn't have to act, he didn't have to instill feel. He was a machine. Most of his mystique came from the incredible score and some clever direction by Spielberg.

Personally, I've always found Lector to be overrated. He's awesome, sure -mand Hopkins definitely deserved the Oscar - but he doesn't rank up there with the visceral and visual memorable nature of Dracula and the aforementioned ilk.

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

The shark's name is Bruce.
Lugosi's Dracula?

[The Morningstar]

Nurse Ratched. Still the most evil woman ever on screen.

And Rutgar Hauer's John Ryder from The Hitcher.

[CConn]

Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg Bop

The shark's name is Bruce.
Lugosi's Dracula?

Hah.

Yeah. Lugosi.

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

Eh. He's the most iconic Dracula, easily, but I don't know if I'd give him best villain status.

[CConn]

I would.

He portrays the perfect presence to make the subtexual point about vampirism as a whole; he's mysterious, alluring, deadly yet, somehow, sympathetic. He conveys a beastial animalism while somehow still remaining regal and dignified.

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by CConn

Yeah, I'd only say guys like Dracula, Vader, and maybe the Wicked Witch of the West are better than ledger.

Jaws is great, but come on, let's show Ledger some respect. Jaws was a prop. He didn't have to act, he didn't have to instill feel. He was a machine. Most of his mystique came from the incredible score and some clever direction by Spielberg.

Personally, I've always found Lector to be overrated. He's awesome, sure -mand Hopkins definitely deserved the Oscar - but he doesn't rank up there with the visceral and visual memorable nature of Dracula and the aforementioned ilk.

I'm going to be butchered for this, but I don't feel that Vader was so different than this.

[KneelBeforeZod]

Ledger's Joker is definitely top tier. Not sure he's the best. There are lots of good psycho-killer-type villains out there.

I'd put him in the same league as --

Hannibal Lecter (Anthony Hopkins, The Silence of the Lambs);
Anton Chigurh (Javier Bardem, No Country for Old Men);
Hans Gruber (Alan Rickman, Die Hard);
Jack Torrance (Jack Nicholson, The Shining);
Patrick Bateman (Christian Bale, American Psycho);
Commodus (Joaquin Phoenix, Gladiator);
Norman Bates (Anthony Perkins, Psycho);
Mitch Leary (John Malkovich, In the Line of Fire).



Kinda hoping to have the opportunity to add "Bane (Tom Hardy, The Dark Knight Rises)" to that list later this year. Neeson's Ras and Murphy's Scarecrow weren't even close to good enough. Eckhart's Harvey Dent/Two-Face actually is very close -- but not quite top tier material.

Bane looks promising, though.

KBZ

[Boom]

Amon Goeth (Schindler's List).

[The Morningstar]

Originally Posted by El Payaso

I'm going to be butchered for this, but I don't feel that Vader was so different than this.

How so? Vader had a personality, a motivation, there was mystery surrounding him, he tried to corrupt the hero, he was monstrous, yet there was a certain sadness about him.

Great villain and i don't see how you could consider him a mere prop.