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Old 12-14-2011, 12:45 AM   #551
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Default Re: Was BF a "decent" Batman Film or Not?

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I totally agree with you, Morningstar. Burton used subtly to great effect, an idea that seams to be lost on Nolan. You'd like this comparison. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSAhuL8FJuQ
Yea, the second part of that video sums it up perfectly. Thanks for the link.

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Old 12-14-2011, 03:17 AM   #552
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Default Re: Was BF a "decent" Batman Film or Not?

Anyone notice the really deep themes of psycho-sexual ambitions left unchecked in a post-industrial America and the corporate corruption of human nature when viewed through the lens of socio-economic gender identity issues in Batman & Robin? Or am I the crazy one?

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Old 12-14-2011, 08:49 AM   #553
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Default Re: Was BF a "decent" Batman Film or Not?

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Giving away free money, especially 20 mil, is guaranteed to attract you a big crowd whether people are poor or not. Who's gonna resist free millions whether they are well off or not?
Let's see.....an insane serial killer who most recently indescriminately killed a lot of people by poisoning various health and beauty aids is handing out free money.....yeah, he wouldn't tamper with that or do something else equally as insane to me.....I'm going to pack up my kids and go downtown for some free money!!!!!

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Old 12-14-2011, 08:57 AM   #554
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Default Re: Was BF a "decent" Batman Film or Not?

^^^ That's one of my problems with Burton's movies. Gotham's citizens are portrayed as really over the top stupid.

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Old 12-14-2011, 09:59 AM   #555
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Default Re: Was BF a "decent" Batman Film or Not?

In all movies Gotham citizens are gullible. For example, who would believe that giving away their best protector would stop an insane clown killer from terrorizing the city? Theyre leaving themselves without the guardian and still with the lunatic on the loose

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Old 12-14-2011, 10:06 AM   #556
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Default Re: Was BF a "decent" Batman Film or Not?

At least there they were acting out of fear of a man both Batman and the Police had failed to catch so far. The longer it takes to catch him the more people who die.

Not to mention public opinion in Gotham of Batman in Nolan's movies was always mixed at best. He was never revered as a hero by everyone like in the old movies.

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Old 12-14-2011, 10:11 AM   #557
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Default Re: Was BF a "decent" Batman Film or Not?

Well, at the same time actions of Gotham citizens in the first movie could be explained as greed clouding their minds, and they were also gullible enough to believe Joker that hes not a murderer and that Batmans the menace

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Old 12-14-2011, 10:40 AM   #558
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Default Re: Was BF a "decent" Batman Film or Not?

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^^^ That's one of my problems with Burton's movies. Gotham's citizens are portrayed as really over the top stupid.
Well, The Joker, you always believe what characters say in these movies. In B89, Gothamites behaviour wasn't explained as their stupidity but "Gotham's greed."

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Old 12-14-2011, 11:06 AM   #559
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Default Re: Was BF a "decent" Batman Film or Not?

Am I the only one who would have a hard time imagining the world that exists around Burton's Gotham City?

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Old 12-14-2011, 11:15 AM   #560
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Am I the only one who would have a hard time imagining the world that exists around Burton's Gotham City?
I never ever thought of imagining the world that exists around Burton's Gotham City myself. What for.

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Old 12-14-2011, 11:24 AM   #561
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I never ever thought of imagining the world that exists around Burton's Gotham City myself. What for.
I ask because, in the Burton films, references are made to places outside of Gotham, like Bruce saying that he bought the suit of armor in Japan in Batman, so I wonder if these places look the same as in real life, or if they are as stylized and weird looking as Gotham City is.

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Old 12-14-2011, 11:45 AM   #562
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Default Re: Was BF a "decent" Batman Film or Not?

Interesting question. I doubt they are as dark and moody as Gotham, but what Im wondering about is whether that anachronism exist everywhere. Gotham is basically 1947 with elements of the 80s, its like if the 1940s America survived till late 80s. its interesting to think whether the whole world is like that

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Old 12-14-2011, 11:47 AM   #563
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Interesting question. I doubt they are as dark and moody as Gotham, but what Im wondering about is whether that anachronism exist everywhere. Gotham is basically 1947 with elements of the 80s, its like if the 1940s America survived till late 80s. its interesting to think whether the whole world is like that
Agreed.

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Old 12-14-2011, 11:50 AM   #564
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Default Re: Was BF a "decent" Batman Film or Not?

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I never ever thought of imagining the world that exists around Burton's Gotham City myself.
Same here

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Old 12-14-2011, 12:24 PM   #565
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Default Re: Was BF a "decent" Batman Film or Not?

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Well, The Joker, you always believe what characters say in these movies. In B89, Gothamites behaviour wasn't explained as their stupidity but "Gotham's greed."
Which was a stupid explanation for dozens of people running to a man who had just been killing them by poisoning their own products. He made TV commercials about it and laughed at them for it. Greed was a really poor excuse for so many people to foolishly stick their heads in the lion's mouth like that.

C. Lee summed it up perfectly. Nobody with a lick of sense would do that.

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Old 12-14-2011, 12:25 PM   #566
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Default Re: Was BF a "decent" Batman Film or Not?

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Which was a stupid explanation for dozens of people running to a man who had just been killing them by poisoning their own products.

C. Lee summed it up perfectly. Nobody would do that.
And that is why it's satire. It's taking the greed and desperation to ridiculous levels to make fun of what America was like in that era. Also with the news reporters coming out in spots and looking rough as hell after just a couple of days without make up and beauty products.

Same could be said of another Burton movie, Edward Scissorhands. American suburbia isn't really like that obviously. But the film went over the top with it to make fun of it.

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Old 12-14-2011, 12:26 PM   #567
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Default Re: Was BF a "decent" Batman Film or Not?

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And that is why it's satire. It's taking the greed and desperation to ridiculous levels to make fun of what America was like in that era.
Explaining why it's stupidly unbelievable doesn't alter that it's still stupidly unbelievable. I know why it was done, but the end result remains the same.

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Same could be said of another Burton movie, Edward Scissorhands. American suburbia isn't really like that obviously. But the film went over the top with it to make fun of it.
American suburbia isn't full of gossipy curtain twitching housewives? Personally I found their reaction to Edward's presence to be very believable. This was a town full of women who were bored and stifled as suburban matrons, who thrive on the littlest gossip because they have nothing better to do. Someone like Edward would be a celeb in a sleepy town like that. Heck he'd be a celeb anywhere. He had scissors for hands!

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Old 12-14-2011, 12:28 PM   #568
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Default Re: Was BF a "decent" Batman Film or Not?

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Which was a stupid explanation for dozens of people running to a man who had just been killing them by poisoning their own products. He made TV commercials about it lol.

C. Lee summed it up perfectly. Nobody with a lick of sense would do that.
Agreed.

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And that is why it's satire. It's taking the greed and desperation to ridiculous levels to make fun of what America was like in that era.
American Psycho satirized the era much better.

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Old 12-14-2011, 01:00 PM   #569
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Default Re: Was BF a "decent" Batman Film or Not?

well, in regards to whether BF was a decent film, i'd give it a 5/10

i remember the first time i saw it in theaters when i was 10 years old and i thought it was awesome. now, i think it's a pretty lame and cheesy movie. although there were a few cool things about it, it's funny watching it now and say that it sucks for the most part compared to when i was a little kid and thought it was awesome.

the Burton films are still awesome to this day, unlike Schumacher's crap infested films

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Old 12-14-2011, 01:06 PM   #570
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Default Re: Was BF a "decent" Batman Film or Not?

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Explaining why it's stupidly unbelievable doesn't alter that it's still stupidly unbelievable. I know why it was done, but the end result remains the same.
It's stupidly unbelievable that Lau could be held in custody after a vigilante extradited him. It's stupidly unbelievable that a bus can crash into a bank on a busy street in broad daylight and nobody even notices.

It's called "plot induced stupidity".

And again, satire often twists things into ridiculous, borderline parody levels to get the message across. The fact that Burton had Gothamites so greedy and desperate for money that they'd go to a psychopaths parade is just perfect satire. The message? $$$ is more important than anything. That is the culture of that era.


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American suburbia isn't full of gossipy curtain twitching housewives? Personally I found their reaction to Edward's presence to be very believable. This was a town full of women who were bored and stifled as suburban matrons, who thrive on the littlest gossip because they have nothing better to do. Someone like Edward would be a celeb in a sleepy town like that. Heck he'd be a celeb anywhere. He had scissors for hands!
True. But I meant more along the lines of the ridiculous houses and clothes etc. It was like the Stepford Wives on acid

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Old 12-14-2011, 01:08 PM   #571
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Default Re: Was BF a "decent" Batman Film or Not?

Personally, I think that Batman Forever is a mixed bag. I like the way Robin is introduced, and I like the attempt to explore Batman and Robin's characters. On the other hand, the villains are too campy and hyperactive, and the tone vacillates between dark & serious and bright & campy. Just like the villain Two-Face cannot decide between good and evil, the film can't decide if it wants to be a dark, serious film like the Burton films, or a light, silly romp like the 1966 TV series.

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Old 12-14-2011, 01:19 PM   #572
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Default Re: Was BF a "decent" Batman Film or Not?

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It's stupidly unbelievable that Lau could be held in custody after a vigilante extradited him. It's stupidly unbelievable that a bus can crash into a bank on a busy street in broad daylight and nobody even notices.

It's called "plot induced stupidity".
Lau being yanked from China by Batman back to America still makes him culpable for indictment regardless of how he got there. Batman is not any associate of the law. They're not responsible for him.

Now if you're talking about honest city officials like Commissioner Gordon, the Mayor, and Harvey Dent making a public hero out of Batman at the end of Batman 1989 after he blatantly murdered many criminals, that is what you call plot induced stupidity.

Making a hero of a vigilante who conducts himself with behavior like that would be license to regular citizens believing it's ok to go and kill criminals if they think they deserve it.

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And again, satire often twists things into ridiculous, borderline parody levels to get the message across. The fact that Burton had Gothamites so greedy and desperate for money that they'd go to a psychopaths parade is just perfect satire. The message? $$$ is more important than anything. That is the culture of that era.
You've said that already. It doesn't change that it still came off as really ridiculous. Even for a comic book movie. Just saying they were greedy because they believed the man who was on TV laughing at them about poisoning their products one minute, and then believing him when he says he's not a killer the next, is a weak basis for a plot like that.

The parade scene was hoot to watch, but totally ridiculous. For many reasons.

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True. But I meant more along the lines of the ridiculous houses and clothes etc. It was like the Stepford Wives on acid
That's just Burton's kind of overt style. I'm more interested in the story and writing than what clothes they wore.

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Old 12-14-2011, 02:13 PM   #573
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Default Re: Was BF a "decent" Batman Film or Not?

I really dont think theres any overexaggeration with the crowd going to the parade. Its greed, I think even in real life, whoever would be on the street throwing bills people would be trumping each other to grab em

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Old 12-14-2011, 02:22 PM   #574
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Let's see.....an insane serial killer who most recently indescriminately killed a lot of people by poisoning various health and beauty aids is handing out free money.....yeah, he wouldn't tamper with that or do something else equally as insane to me.....I'm going to pack up my kids and go downtown for some free money!!!!!
I guess it does sound really dumb when you put it like that.

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Old 12-14-2011, 03:10 PM   #575
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I've still yet to see any evidence that any of this was intended as satire. RoboCop = satire. Idiocracy = satire. Brazil = satire. The intent is all very clear without being "spoonfed" as someone so charmingly put it. As far as I know, the notion that those elements in Batman are meant to be satirical social commentary is right out of left field in Batcademia (LOL!), and right now sounds like some overly-defensive retroactive justification for weak plotting, combined with some thinly-veiled fanboy tit-for-tat. In good faith -both for the purposes of discussion and my own genuine edification as a Batfan- I did ask for a source for the satire theory, but only got some sort of snarky nonsense in return.

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