The Official Batman Forever Thread - Part 2

[Vile]

I hated the movie almost as much as I did Batman and Robin - For many reasons, mind you, many that have been stated already.

The biggest is two words - ROCK. CLIMBING.

Bruce, in an effort to get laid tells Chase he's going rock climbing this weekend and would like her to come along...All the while Two-Face, supposed crazed killer and all, is on the loose.

Nice to know Batman, despite having INSANE SERIAL KILLERS WANDERING ABOUT, takes his weekends off.

That movie was NOT the Batman we know who, oh I dont know, made a vow that what happened to his parents would never happen to anyone else...but that comes second to a weekend get-away!

[Supermaniac]

for just your average everyday guy i'd say its a descent movie for a hardcore Bat fan it is not.

[P. Cushing]

Originally Posted by LastSunrise1981

That's not true at all. It's been reported that Tommy Lee Jones knew about Two-Face and wanted to do an accurate comic depiction of him; however, Joel wanted him to act like he did in the movie and that's what ultimately led to them not getting along on the set.

Wrong. The tension between Jones and Schumacher was because Schumacher was pissed at Jones for his relentless muggin and trying to outdo Carrey.

[P. Cushing]

Originally Posted by Tobiaswins

Batman has always been a mystery to the general public, and not someone who shows up to a public court hearing in full costume.

He was doing that kind of thing all the time from 1940-1970.

[P. Cushing]

Originally Posted by Kevin Roegele

Bob Kane said he was the closest to the character he created.

I didn't see Kilmer running around in a domino mask and red tights! Besides, he also said that about Clooney.

[P. Cushing]

There's a number of things I like about BF:
1. Kilmer. He made an effort to continue Keaton's portrayal of Batman and was more of a 70s Comics type Bruce Wayne.
2. Recurring duality. Batman and Robin are a duo. So are Riddler and Two-Face. Batman has two identities. Riddler is after one and Two-Face is after the other. Batman has to choose between Chase (Bruce Wayne) and Robin (The Batman). Two-Face has a split personality, Riddler uses his Nigma identity as a front.
3. The scene between Bruce and Dick after Dick takes the mobile for a ride. Kilmer, O'Donnell and Gough all do a great job and the scripting is excellent.
4. Dick and Bruce's character arcs are both excellently done.
5. Nicole Kidman never looked so good.
6. The opening scenes are classic Batman. He suits up, swings in, confrences with Gordon and takes on the villain and his henchmen.
7. Michael Gough.
8. The Diary subplot. Even though most of it was edited out of the final cut by the bastards at WB.
8. The panther suit is excellent (except for the nipples).
9. The fight sequences are very well done.
10. Cinematography is great.
11. Two-Face's opening monologue is great, and Jones's best performance in the whole film.
12. They came up with a good reason for him changing his suit, not just doing it for the sake of it.
13. Robin's suit was very good.

[The Guard]

Some of them I did...but I was speaking about in the movie. They were way too easiliy figured out by Batman. The riddles are usually truely thought provoking, complicated, perplexing riddles that the police cannot solve. In BF, Batman solves each riddle in a matter of minutes of recieving them.

Understand now smartass?

Yes, but apparently you don't.

The Riddler's riddles have never been extremely brilliant or difficult in the comics. They are not difficult if you have the right mindset and can get into it quickly and see things the way The Riddler does, and Batman has always been able to solve them fairly quickly. For one thing, The Riddler has a compulsion in leaving riddles: He, on some level, wants to be discovered, and he wants to be pursued. He wants Batman to know how smart he is, how much planning went into each caper, and that he's not just the average criminal (even though, though his actions, he is). BATMAN FOREVER nailed this aspect of the character. BATMAN FOREVER nailed a lot. Definitely a decent Batman film, if not a perfect one. More later.

[Infinity9999x]

Originally Posted by Oldman = Gordon

Wrong. The tension between Jones and Schumacher was because Schumacher was pissed at Jones for his relentless muggin and trying to outdo Carrey.

How exactaly do EITHER of you know what was going on between Jones and Shumacher? Neither of you were there so you can't really comment on it until you ask them both.

[Infinity9999x]

Definitely a decent Batman film, if not a perfect one. More later.[/QUOTE]

A perfect film? Batman had bat-nipples and neon, that alone brings it down from perfect, granted it still is a decent film, but it still wasnt as good as 89 in my own personal opinion.

[Guason]

I thought the BR´s suit was the best.

[The Guard]

A perfect film? Batman had bat-nipples and neon, that alone brings it down from perfect, granted it still is a decent film, but it still wasnt as good as 89 in my own personal opinion.

Ah, the English language...

I meant exactly the opposite of what you thought I meant. I accept that BATMAN FOREVER had it's flaws. I still think it was a very decent Batman film, and a good film overall.

[Infinity9999x]

Ohhh ok I understand now I had to read the sentence again to get the meaning. lol and yes the english language does have a tendancy to confuse easily.

[Vile]

I agree that the riddles left to Batman were too easily solved...True, in the comics Bats always seemed to get them right on but we as the reader usually didnt. Horrible lines in that scene as well..."

"How about...Mr. E?" "Mystery!" "Another name for a mystery?" "An enigma!" *We watch as the wheels turn, though it's painfully obvious* "Mr E. Nigma...EDWARD NIGMA!"

Yeah okay..and the huge brainsucking blender demonic island being built in the middle of the bay wasnt the first clue...

[Riven]

Originally Posted by Vile

Yeah okay..and the huge brainsucking blender demonic island being built in the middle of the bay wasnt the first clue...

Never mock the huge brainsucking blender demonic island! It is wise and terrible!

[Chomp]

Originally Posted by The Guard

The Riddler's riddles have never been extremely brilliant or difficult in the comics. They are not difficult if you have the right mindset and can get into it quickly and see things the way The Riddler does, and Batman has always been able to solve them fairly quickly. For one thing, The Riddler has a compulsion in leaving riddles: He, on some level, wants to be discovered, and he wants to be pursued. He wants Batman to know how smart he is, how much planning went into each caper, and that he's not just the average criminal (even though, though his actions, he is).

Does he have a compulsion to leave stupid and lame riddles as well? The Riddler character in the comics has a manic exterior personality that hides his calculating arrogant interior personality; Carrey puts no dimension to the role and plays the Riddler like Ace Ventura on crack. But that is not Carrey's fault. Jim was given such horrible material to work with to become the Riddler, that he had to adopt his own flair into the character, which ultimately overpowered any minimal elemets of The Riddler that Carrey was given. Jim did this to ensure his character could be recognized throughout the film...because his riddles certainly left nothing of a mark.

The riddler in BF makes me appreciate Frank Gorshin.

Originally Posted by The Guard

Definitely a decent Batman film, if not a perfect one.

Yea definately a perfect Bat-film, especially with the likes of these great aspects:

-A mockery of what Batman really is
-The portrayal of Burce Wayne as a spoiled brat that didn't get his way rather than a vengeful person with motive to stop evil.
-Batman being transformed into a commercial shill for the WB to sell merchandise
-A Robin in his MID-TWENTIES
-A physically goofy and loud Two-Face
-Riddles that the Riddler conceives are stupid and predictable
-A love interest that felt like a cardboard cut out
-The moronic action (a grappling hook swinging a bank vault into a skyscraper)
-Camp, comedy, and over the top stunts
-CGI city...Gotham felt like it was built in a studio behind a blue screen. It was Las Vegas, not Gotham

What?!?!?!...That is Batman to a T!

Give me a f@#$ing break...

[Furious Styles]

I'm of the mind that it was a decent "Batman" film in general. It had it's good points, as well as its bad points. I think the original Director's Cut had the ability to help the film moreso than anything. It had a pretty decent cast, but I just think it was style over substance. Some of the characters were misplayed somewhat or didn't come across as well as the characters could have.

I think it was a throwback to the Batman television series. All in all though, because I don't want to get into specifics, I thought it was watchable. It wasn't particularly as good as B'89, but it wasn't as bad as B&R. I think it is in the buffer zone. Some people like it because it isn't Keaton/Burton, some people hate it because of Schumacher and some people are in the middle.

[P. Cushing]

Originally Posted by Chomp

Yea definately a perfect Bat-film, especially with the likes of these great aspects:

Are you ****ing blind? The Guard stated that it was NOT a perfect Batman film, as he explicitly explained to a previous poster who made the mistake of thinking as you did. Next time, read the whole thread.

[The Guard]

Why BATMAN FOREVER is decent?

Good acting from Val Kilmer, Nicole Kidman and Michael Gough

Great scenes like:

Like someone else said, the opening, Suiting up, which has become a stable of comic book films now, driving to Gotham, Batman swinging down to confront Chase and Commissioner Gordon, and giving his take on the situation, then going inside, kicking ass, saving the guard's life and going for a ride on the copter. And yes, Two-Face's opening monologue was good, too.

Batman rescuing Dick to be attacked and having to explain his actions. "If Bruce Wayne could have given his life for your parents...he would have."

The death of Dick Grayson's parents and the entire circus scene leading up to it.

The joining of Batman and Robin, and the stuff that comes before it, like Bruce's speech about the nature of vengeance. Dick Grayson's character, period, was fantastic. He was a laughing young daredevil without being over the top or campy. He was also pretty darn capable as a fighter/acrobat.

Anything involving Bruce's psychology about his parents, and how he remembers pieces about how he came to be The Batman. And yes, the duality/split personalities thing was all throughout the story.

Chase Meridian. A love interest that was neither dumb or weak, but still managed to make a good damsel in distress. Her role in Bruce's life was fantastic, her performance sizzled and hit all the right emotional notes. The rooftop scene was fantastic, as was the bedroom scene. Shades of Silver. St. Cloud.

Cinematography was indeed wonderful.

The suits, including both the Batsuit and the Robin suit, were fantastic. The Riddler also had some great costumes, and Two-Face's, while over the top, came right out of the comics and was well done.

I agree that the riddles left to Batman were too easily solved...True, in the comics Bats always seemed to get them right on but we as the reader usually didnt. Horrible lines in that scene as well..."

"How about...Mr. E?" "Mystery!" "Another name for a mystery?" "An enigma!" *We watch as the wheels turn, though it's painfully obvious* "Mr E. Nigma...EDWARD NIGMA!"

Why are those horrible lines? That's what The Riddler wanted. To be discovered.

Yeah okay..and the huge brainsucking blender demonic island being built in the middle of the bay wasnt the first clue...

No one said that didn't suck. But if The Riddler's going to be a threat...

Does he have a compulsion to leave stupid and lame riddles as well?

Stupid and lame riddles would be "What has four legs, and ticks?" The riddles that Riddler left were not simple to solve (despite what our resident geniuses pretend to have done), nor was the manner in which they came together to point out the Riddler's identity simple.

The Riddler character in the comics has a manic exterior personality that hides his calculating arrogant interior personality; Carrey puts no dimension to the role and plays the Riddler like Ace Ventura on crack.

Except for when he was reserved, for instance when he was playing Nygma, not The Riddler, or wanted to get a point across. Maybe you should read some comics that featured The Riddler before Jeph Loeb got ahold of him. He went around giggling, screaming things and ranting and raving quite a bit. Yes, there was a lot of Jim Carrey in his performance, and it worked pretty well.

But that is not Carrey's fault. Jim was given such horrible material to work with to become the Riddler, that he had to adopt his own flair into the character, which ultimately overpowered any minimal elemets of The Riddler that Carrey was given. Jim did this to ensure his character could be recognized throughout the film...because his riddles certainly left nothing of a mark.

Which elements of The Riddler weren't shown?

-A mockery of what Batman really is

How so?

-The portrayal of Burce Wayne as a spoiled brat that didn't get his way rather than a vengeful person with motive to stop evil.

You didn't watch this movie, did you?

"I would use its image to strike fear into the hearts of those that would do evil. I would have my revenge."

-Batman being transformed into a commercial shill for the WB to sell merchandise

Like he's not in every other version he's ever been?

-A Robin in his MID-TWENTIES

Actually he was supposed to be 18. I've seen a lot of 18 year olds that look like that. Especially athletes.

-A physically goofy and loud Two-Face

Are you referring to his outfit or just his personality?

-Riddles that the Riddler conceives are stupid and predictable

Because you figured out exactly what he was doing right off the bat, right?

-A love interest that felt like a cardboard cut out

Hardly. She was anything but a Bond girl type.

-The moronic action (a grappling hook swinging a bank vault into a skyscraper)

Let's talk about cars that leaps across rooftops. Was it realistic? Not really. Did it obey the laws of physics? Not really. Neither do half the things you see in the comics. That scene was cool.

-Camp, comedy, and over the top stunts

God forbid a Batman film have a little camp and a little humor. You know, since the comics are completely devoid of it. Over the top stunts such as...

-CGI city...Gotham felt like it was built in a studio behind a blue screen. It was Las Vegas, not Gotham

Looked like Gotham to me.

[hulkamania85]

I thought Batman Forever was not nearly as good as the first two but still all right. Some problems:

-Bat nipples. A hint of things to come
-"I'll get drive through". Another hint of things to come.
-Gotham not as gothic. Not too big a deal because it was still dark enough, but the old look for Gotham was better.
-Two-Face was more like Joker 2 than his own character.

I thought Jim Carrey was a great Riddler even though he'd be a better Joker. I liked having Robin in a Batman movie even though it would have made a little more sense to have Robin be younger.

[Chomp]

Originally Posted by The Guard

Good acting from Val Kilmer, Nicole Kidman and Michael Gough

Val Kilmer will NEVER be considered Batman to me. The guy was a stiff...literally, he was stiff. Two Face could have thrown his coin at Val and it would have bounced about 10 feet in the other direction. Also, Val had no facial expressions whatsoever. He looked like he had the glazed over look of just being hit over the head with a hammer. If you are going to be an actor, its a little hard to get into the mind of the acting, when you have no physical mannerisms. Keaton had faical expressions. Everytime he gave a squint or a frown, or the movement of his lips, you knew EXACTLY what he was thinking. He had a readable face...Kilmer does not.

Nicole Kidman's part as Chase is just a recycled rehash of several other psychologists. It was a cardboard cut-out with no entertaining aspects at all. But by far she was the best actor in the film.

Originally Posted by The Guard

Stupid and lame riddles would be "What has four legs, and ticks?" The riddles that Riddler left were not simple to solve (despite what our resident geniuses pretend to have done), nor was the manner in which they came together to point out the Riddler's identity simple.

Give me a break. That sounds like a riddle a teacher would give her third grade students. You show me ONE riddle from the comics that is as lame as any of those from BF...show me. And it has to be from a comic that is from well respectible source material. Even riddles from BTAS are far superior than anything from BF, and its a kid's show!: "Shall we play the Riddler's game; with meaning changed but word the same? Then find the founder who found fame before he founders in his name." This is probably my favorite from the TV series.

I maybe influenced by Jeph, but let's face it, he put The Riddler on the map as being one of Batman's greatest villains. The Riddler was pretty much a small villain before that.

Originally Posted by The Guard

You didn't watch this movie, did you?

I wish I hadn't.

Originally Posted by The Guard

Like he's not in every other version he's ever been?

Not to BF's extent.

[QUOTE=The Guard]
Actually he was supposed to be 18. I've seen a lot of 18 year olds that look like that. Especially athletes.[/quotes]

He didn't look 18 to me...unless you see a lot of maturely developed 18 year olds. Face it, he looked old...too old to play Robin.

Originally Posted by The Guard

Are you referring to his outfit or just his personality?

His personality...he played exactly like Joker before him. It seemed as if he only had one side in the movie...lame.

Originally Posted by The Guard

Because you figured out exactly what he was doing right off the bat, right?

Have you forgotten my posts already?

Originally Posted by The Guard

Hardly. She was anything but a Bond girl type.

Yea, she was a cardboard cut...nothing new, just a rehash of other characters from other movies. It actually felt as if Chase was a character from another film...like she was digitally manipulated into the screen from another film. Boring.

Originally Posted by The Guard

Let's talk about cars that leaps across rooftops. Was it realistic? Not really. Did it obey the laws of physics? Not really. Neither do half the things you see in the comics. That scene was cool.

How old are you 12? What's cool is Batman gliding through the air with bats, breaking in from an above window, that Batmobile looking sleak yet different...BF's Batmobiles was just different...and hideous if you ask me. It also seemed totally impractical.

Originally Posted by The Guard

God forbid a Batman film have a little camp and a little humor. You know, since the comics are completely devoid of it. Over the top stunts such as...

A little? The whole goddamn script was developed by camp and humor.

Originally Posted by The Guard

Looked like Gotham to me.

Of course it did. Gotham City is suppose to be Gothic...The 3 D's: Dark, depressing, decaying. BF's Gotham City was full of colorful buildings that lit up the night sky as if you were taking a stroll through the strip.

The animators didn't draw over black paper for nothing, while constructing Gotham for BTAS.

Look, I am glad you like the film...at least someone does. But for me, it wasn't Batman. It wasn't Batman and it wasn't a good film. We can argue this case Forever, but you nor will anybody change my mind on this atrocity of a Batman film, let alone a theatrical film.

Originally Posted by Oldman = Gordon

Are you ****ing blind? The Guard stated that it was NOT a perfect Batman film, as he explicitly explained to a previous poster who made the mistake of thinking as you did. Next time, read the whole thread.

Next time, STFU.

[Vile]

Originally Posted by The Guard

Why are those horrible lines? That's what The Riddler wanted. To be discovered.

Really? Well instead of leaving crappy Riddles (which anyone with an IQ over that of what I keep my THERMOSTAT at could solve) he should have just left a big ol' sign that said EDWARD NIGMA = RIDDLER - oh thats right, HE DID (AGAIN) with the huge ass claw base in the middle of the bay...not to mention chatting with Two-Face openly when the Joker-wannabe 'crashed' his party.

Then again, you can't blame Batman for all this...he was supposed to be rock climbing that weekend.

[The Batman]

I like Batman Forever more than i like Batman Returns

Val gave a good performance as Batman. Sometimes, i feel its even better than Keatons. His whole look as Bruce/Batman was great. The suit, besides the nipples, was probably the best Bat-outfit. The Bruce/Dick drama was great, and they did a better job of looking into Bruce's psyche better than in the first two flicks. Hell, did we even really get into Bruce's head in Returns? The action was definetely better, especially the first fight scene.

Tommy Lee Jones couldve done a better job as Two-Face. And I dont know why everyone comes in and says Riddler's such as psycho in the comics, cause i dont remember it like that. In fact, besides the 60's TV show, I always thought Riddler was kind of a lameass.

[Chomp]

Originally Posted by Vile

Then again, you can't blame Batman for all this...he was supposed to be rock climbing that weekend.

LMAO...too true.

Originally Posted by The Batman

And I dont know why everyone comes in and says Riddler's such as psycho in the comics, cause i dont remember it like that. In fact, besides the 60's TV show, I always thought Riddler was kind of a lameass.

It's true, The Riddler has often been disreguarded as a main villain, until in recent years where he was actually brought to a form that quite possibly could be a larger than life villain. The Riddler could have his own film if it was to ever happen.

I recommend reading Hush or TLH. The Riddler, undoubtedly has the highest IQ of all Batman's foes. Cold, aloof, and possessed of a steely wit. The Riddler, unlike many of the other members of Batman's rogues gallery, is more of a cerebral than physical villain. Although he is quite suited for physical combat and often has weapons ready for use, he has probably always been among the least homicidal of the major Bat nemises; indeed, one story showed him lamenting the rise of murderous villains.

Edward's transformation allows him to lose all sense of reality. He becomes completely wrapped up in the evil and criminal behavior which is warping his mind. He needs to be the Riddler to truly express the real Edward Nygma, in turn completely separating himself from any normalcy he once had.

You honestly don't see the psychosis involved with The Riddler?

[The Batman]

Hush and TLH were produced before BF, so they didnt really focus on his psychosis.

I mean, even the BTAS crew admitted they didnt use him much....

[Chomp]

They may not have used much in BTAS, but they hit The Riddler dead on as far as I am concerned.