The Official Batman Forever Thread - Part 2

[Two-Face]

Originally Posted by The Batman

Hush and TLH were produced before BF, so they didnt really focus on his psychosis.

You're wrong Hush was pubilshed in (2004) and LTH was published in (1999) after Batman Forever (1995)

[neobido9999]

Two-Face's opening monologue is great

I 100% agree. It belongs in a different (awesome) movie. The rest is neon coated crap, but that first 3 minutes, ending at "let's start this party with a bang!" were great.

"One man is born a hero, his brother a coward, Babies starve, politicians grow fat. Holy men are martyred, and junkies grow legion. Why? Why, why, why, why, why? Luck!"

[The Batman]

i did mean after. sorry...

[neobido9999]

To me the Riddler should be calm and cool, like a person who thinks they have all the answers

agreed, i imagine him a cross between Kaiser Soze and Half Life's G Man, appearing in the distance, on the fringes of mayhem he's caused

[Two-Face]

You when Two Face cames to Edward's party and Bruce goes to car to put on the suit but how can he wearing rubber suit in the car? I would understand if suit was leather.

[The Guard]

The biggest is two words - ROCK. CLIMBING.

Bruce, in an effort to get laid tells Chase he's going rock climbing this weekend and would like her to come along...All the while Two-Face, supposed crazed killer and all, is on the loose.

Nice to know Batman, despite having INSANE SERIAL KILLERS WANDERING ABOUT, takes his weekends off.

First, Bruce Wayne, in the old days, used to actually date women he liked. WAIT...he STILL DOES in the comics! Second, they were not insane serial killers, they were just insane (And The Riddler didn't exist yet, I don't think). Third, did you think he was going rock climbing at night? Bruce Wayne does tend to fill his daytimes with playboy/diversionary activities.

That movie was NOT the Batman we know who, oh I dont know, made a vow that what happened to his parents would never happen to anyone else...but that comes second to a weekend get-away!

Why wasn't it the Batman we know again? Some more examples, please.

Two-Face was more like Joker 2 than his own character.

Once again...even Nicholson's Joker in BATMAN didn't have this explosive and violent a personality. Tommy Lee Jones played his character as a classic, insane supervillain, within the boundaries of what Two-Face was and always has been, and what the script allowed him to do. He was not channelling The Joker. Laughing as a supervillain does not make one a ripoff of The Joker.

I thought Jim Carrey was a great Riddler even though he'd be a better Joker. I liked having Robin in a Batman movie even though it would have made a little more sense to have Robin be younger.

Why would it have made more sense to have Robin be younger? If anything, it made sense to have him be 18.

Val Kilmer will NEVER be considered Batman to me. The guy was a stiff...literally, he was stiff.

Two Face could have thrown his coin at Val and it would have bounced about 10 feet in the other direction. Also, Val had no facial expressions whatsoever. He looked like he had the glazed over look of just being hit over the head with a hammer. If you are going to be an actor, its a little hard to get into the mind of the acting, when you have no physical mannerisms. Keaton had faical expressions. Everytime he gave a squint or a frown, or the movement of his lips, you knew EXACTLY what he was thinking. He had a readable face...Kilmer does not.

Hello...Bruce Wayne...Batman...

Nicole Kidman's part as Chase is just a recycled rehash of several other psychologists. It was a cardboard cut-out with no entertaining aspects at all. But by far she was the best actor in the film.

Nevermind that everything has been done and that there's nothing wrong with borrowing elements that work, but I'll call your bluff. Tell me about another film where a psychologist helps a brooding superhero with his dark past and his parents. Or anything even close. And if you name something post-1994, I'm going to laugh.

[quote]Give me a break. That sounds like a riddle a teacher would give her third grade students. You show me ONE riddle from the comics that is as lame as any of those from BF...show me.

"What you call twins both named William?"

"What's the laziest mountain in the world."

"Where do cows go on a date?"

"How do you keep an idiot waiting?"

"How does a boat show it's affection?"

These are all riddles The Riddler has used before, in just one issue, actually.

And it has to be from a comic that is from well respectible source material.

Oh. Ok...

"When does a killer not kill?"

Even riddles from BTAS are far superior than anything from BF, and its a kid's show!: "Shall we play the Riddler's game; with meaning changed but word the same? Then find the founder who found fame before he founders in his name." This is probably my favorite from the TV series.

That's all well and good. But it has nothing to do with putting together several riddles to create the name "Mr. E". Which was the point of the riddles in BATMAN FOREVER. Obviously you forgot that to do that, there had to be some thinking involved.

I maybe influenced by Jeph, but let's face it, he put The Riddler on the map as being one of Batman's greatest villains. The Riddler was pretty much a small villain before that.

What's your point?

Not to BF's extent.

Let's talk about BATMAN BEGINS merchandising, shall we?

His personality...he played exactly like Joker before him. It seemed as if he only had one side in the movie...lame.

I'm not going to go over this again. See above for my points on Joker/Two-Face comparisons. And he clearly didn't have just one side, but one side was firmly in control most of the time. You know, the way Two-Face was for years in the comics after he became Two-Face?

Have you forgotten my posts already?

No I haven't. Nor do I believe for a second that you solved those riddles as quickly as you claim to have. How old are you, btw? Because if it's anything under 18, I'm gonna have to not believe your amazing riddle-solving abilities.

[quote]Yea, she was a cardboard cut...nothing new, just a rehash of other characters from other movies. It actually felt as if Chase was a character from another film...like she was digitally manipulated into the screen from another film. Boring.[;/quote]

Which other movies are these now? Quick now, specific examples.

How old are you 12?

Old enough to know when to use a comma.

What's cool is Batman gliding through the air with bats, breaking in from an above window, that Batmobile looking sleak yet different...BF's Batmobiles was just different...and hideous if you ask me. It also seemed totally impractical.

When did I say anything about The Batmobile?

A little? The whole goddamn script was developed by camp and humor.

No, the whole goddam script wasn't.

"Then, it will happen like this. You find Two-Face, and you kill him..."

...cue scene where family falls to their deaths.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v..._on_this/GC.jpg

That's one shot. You forgot the daytime shots. And the parts of Gotham that weren't all neon.

Look, I am glad you like the film...at least someone does. But for me, it wasn't Batman.

Why? All you've come with so far is your ridiculous rock climbing argument.

[P. Cushing]

Originally Posted by Chomp

You show me ONE riddle from the comics that is as lame as any of those from BF...show me.

What letter is 9 inches long?
Y becayse it's one fourth of a yard.

Why is the letter A like a honeysuckle?
Because it's always followed by a "B".

Why is a room full of married couples like an empty room?
Because there isn't a single person in it.

[P. Cushing]

Originally Posted by Chomp

They may not have used much in BTAS, but they hit The Riddler dead on as far as I am concerned.

They decided early on that they wouldn't rely on dodgy riddles, instead focusing on his psyche.

[Vile]

Originally Posted by The Guard

First, Bruce Wayne, in the old days, used to actually date women he liked. WAIT...he STILL DOES in the comics! Second, they were not insane serial killers, they were just insane (And The Riddler didn't exist yet, I don't think). Third, did you think he was going rock climbing at night? Bruce Wayne does tend to fill his daytimes with playboy/diversionary activities.

First off, I've no qualms with Wayne playing the playboy route and dating - My point is, do it IN TOWN.

Second, okay, maybe they arnt serial killers (Though I would question this further, but for the sake of time..) Them 'just being insane' doesnt really make them less than a threat. After all, Two-face had no problem with gunning down Robin's family and almost boiling a man to death with acid...so, what do we got? Insane? Check. Killer? Check. Then again, Two-Face come off about as threatening and frightening as a pair of wet boxers. Between his stupid maniacal laughter and his dancing around it's a wonder he had time to show the Riddler how to PUNCH A GUY.

The quote is, "Look, I'm going rock climbing this weekend", and it sounds to me like a weekend getaway. Now, I could be wrong - in the horrible version of Las Veg-er, Gotham City perhaps it's surrounded by a mountain range...or perhaps he scales the Statue of Liberty thats magically in the harbor...but I doubt it. Now then, since they are leaving town for the weekend are you trying to convince me he's going to fly back to Gotham every night? God, I could only imagine his excuse! "Oh Bruce, how romantic!" "...I gatta go! It's almost dusk! And...well, I have a meeting. A business meeting. With business people. That lasts....all night. I'll be back in the morning! But only for the day! Then I have..another meeting. Did I mention its quite impossible that I'm Batman?"

As to the Riddles used, come ON. "The Riddles all have numbers..and they correspond to...THE ALPHABET!" "Perhaps he's spelling out his name, sir?" "...He's a crafty one, this Riddler."

That whole scene was just tormenting to watch - I would have prefered if when Bruce figured out the numbers would correspond to letters that Alfred would remind him, "But sir! You dont KNOW the alphabet!" Because then Bruce would have to go to the Library and FINALLY WE'D GET SOME DAMN DETECTIVE WORK.

Come on! numbers coresponding to the alphabet?!?! Gimme a break!

"Mr. E Nigma!" *The whindup...and the pitch...* "Edward Nigma!" *And the crowd goes WILD!*

[Chomp]

Originally Posted by The Guard

I'm not going to go over this again. See above for my points on Joker/Two-Face comparisons. And he clearly didn't have just one side, but one side was firmly in control most of the time. You know, the way Two-Face was for years in the comics after he became Two-Face?

Because we all know, when Two-Face doesn't like the results of his coin, he flips it a second time...

Originally Posted by The Guard

No, the whole goddam script wasn't.

"Then, it will happen like this. You find Two-Face, and you kill him..."

...cue scene where family falls to their deaths

Awwwwwww....LAME.

Originally Posted by The Guard

That's all well and good. But it has nothing to do with putting together several riddles to create the name "Mr. E". Which was the point of the riddles in BATMAN FOREVER. Obviously you forgot that to do that, there had to be some thinking involved.

The way Bruce solved them was rediculous.

Originally Posted by The Guard

Let's talk about BATMAN BEGINS merchandising, shall we?

Go ahead...no skin off my back.

Originally Posted by The Guard

Old enough to know when to use a comma.

You should be one to talk...LoL.

Originally Posted by The Guard

That's one shot. You forgot the daytime shots. And the parts of Gotham that weren't all neon.

Most of the scenes took place at night.

Originally Posted by The Guard

Why? All you've come with so far is your ridiculous rock climbing argument.

That wasn't mine, try again.

[The Kid]

I'd put it right up there with Spider-man 2.

I know that angers some of you spiderboys, but really, watch both films back to back, kiss your pet, and tell me you don't think they share something.

SM franchise gets unlimited praise while everyone takes a dump on shoemaker's films, and rightfully so, because certain things are just plain stupid. Bat nipples. Organic webshooters. Your Cliche mustache twirling villians. Parts are great, parts are crap... etc. etc...

If a better spiderman flick had been made before SM1 and 2, everyone would excrete nice big creamy piles on Raimi's light action flicks too. LOL.

Batman forever is a pretty darn good action flick, but not a good enough batman film to many. Just like spiderman's a pretty darn good action flick, but just not a good enough Spiderman film.

my thoughts...

[Captain_Obvious]

I remember wanting to look like Dr. Chase Merdian and realized it would be cool to be a psychologist...

Thanks Batman Forever!

[Infinity9999x]

Originally Posted by Wesyeed

SM franchise gets unlimited praise while everyone takes a dump on shoemaker's films, and rightfully so, because certain things are just plain stupid. Bat nipples. Organic webshooters.

I think Bat nipples are a bit more stupid then organic webshooters. I see what you're saying about the movies but really the organic webshooters make sence, why did they make then non organic in the 1st place? I mean who's idea was it to go, okay, we'll give the kid spider powers but NOT the big trademark of a spider, it's web, those he'll have to make by himself. It just seems kinda stupid, if they had wanted to show peter's scientific smarts, they could have him make web shooter like appendages that mix chemicals into his web that perhaps make the web do diffrent things. So really they were probably just giving him organic webshooters because non comic people would wonder why he didn't get that power from the spider, it's a little more reasonable then Bat-nipples, which was just weird. Still though I agree with your analogy, because Rami's films were light hearted action flicks.

[Two-Face]

Originally Posted by Chomp

Because we all know, when Two-Face doesn't like the results of his coin, he flips it a second time...

No, you're wrong, in comics he flips his coin once he wouldn't do it again but in Batman Forever he does it so many times he shoots Bruce in the near head. in comics if coin says not to shoot it won't shoot Bruce.


read this from imdb:

"In the movie, there is a scene where Two Face keeps flipping his coin until he gets a result he wants. In the comics, a key element of his split personality is that he unquestioningly accepts the result of a single coin toss concerning any decision he makes."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112462/trivia

[Captain_Obvious]

Originally Posted by Two Face

No, you're wrong, in comics he flips his coin once he wouldn't do it again but in Batman Forever he does it so many times he shoots Bruce in the near head. in comics if coin says not to shoot it won't shoot Bruce.


read this from imdb:

"In the movie, there is a scene where Two Face keeps flipping his coin until he gets a result he wants. In the comics, a key element of his split personality is that he unquestioningly accepts the result of a single coin toss concerning any decision he makes."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112462/trivia

if you noticed his "" smiley, you'd understand he was being sarcastic

jesus.

[The Batman]

Jeph loeb made the riddler a serious villain?

Someone never watched the 60's Tv show...

[Mack]

I used to really hate this movie, I felt the film was goofy, the vilains were way over the top and Kilmer lacked the intensity or charisma needed for Bruce Wayne and Batman. Not to mention I thought he looked ridiculous under the cowl with his big lips. I watched it again on TBS a few days ago, and I actually liked it more. Jim Carrey's Riddler was a lot like Gorshin's, and if everyone else in the film was serious, he would of been more effective. The best scenes of the movie involved Chris O'Donnell as Dick Grauson, he made a pretty good older Robin, but his character was written as a non-factor and just another person for Batman to rescue at the end of the movie. Kilmer's Batman voice was pretty good, and his fight scenes were better than Keaton's. He was still dull as a board though. The worst acting in the movie was by far Tommy Lee Jones as Two-Face, who did a horrific job as what was Two-Face in name only. Overall, I would rate this movie 6/10, it was a fun mindless action film, but the first two Batman films easily blow it out of the water.

[The Caped Knight]

BATMAN FOREVER is not the best BATMAN movie, but it is not BS like batman & robin is. BATMAN FOREVER overall was a good movie compared to b&r.

[The Guard]

I used to really hate this movie, I felt the film was goofy, the vilains were way over the top and Kilmer lacked the intensity or charisma needed for Bruce Wayne and Batman. Not to mention I thought he looked ridiculous under the cowl with his big lips. I watched it again on TBS a few days ago, and I actually liked it more. Jim Carrey's Riddler was a lot like Gorshin's, and if everyone else in the film was serious, he would of been more effective.

Here's the thing. People bash the FOREVER Riddler for not being serious. When was The Riddler ever that serious? He was about the game, always has been, always will be on some level. He was comical about how he operated in BATMAN FOREVER (it was part of his personality), but he was also deadly serious, within the parameters of the world he inhabited. A world of over-the-top costumed heroes and villains, a fictional city, etc. The Riddler was pretty sinister when you really stop and think about it. He was a genius who killed his boss, stole people's most private information, used people to get what he wanted, and he was a freaking stalker to boot. Was he the darkest villain? No. But The Riddler never really was.

The best scenes of the movie involved Chris O'Donnell as Dick Grauson, he made a pretty good older Robin, but his character was written as a non-factor and just another person for Batman to rescue at the end of the movie.

He wasn't a non-factor at all. The themes of vengeance and his parallells with Bruce, as well as his curious, sometimes dark, but driven nature, were done well, and so was the death of his parents. He was a non-factor because he had to be rescued from a supervillain, after making a pretty good choice not to kill another one of them? That makes every Robin story where that happened in the comics obsolete, I guess. And that would tend to exclude some of the best Robin stories there are.

The worst acting in the movie was by far Tommy Lee Jones as Two-Face, who did a horrific job as what was Two-Face in name only.

I consider it one of the best performances of the film. Best PERFORMANCES, not PORTRAYALS. For the most part, I hated how Two-Face was portrayed in this film, but Tommy Lee Jones did it very, very well. He gave a LOT to this role. He easily did the most with, arguably, the least to work with out of anyone of the cast (Well, maybe Pat Hingle had less to work with). Read a comic book from that era, or anything before it. Two-Face looked like that. He was/is over the top. He is prone to spontaneous, violent outbursts. The problem is, Tommy Lee Jones' chracter was so over-the-top and so obsessed with the number two that it became ridiculous and campy. He didnt deliver hardly any of his lines badly or with little energy, though. He crafted two very distinct characters for Two-Face. The problem was, he had nothing to work with to begin with.

[Mack]

Originally Posted by The Guard

Here's the thing. People bash the FOREVER Riddler for not being serious. When was The Riddler ever that serious? He was about the game, always has been, always will be on some level. He was comical about how he operated in BATMAN FOREVER (it was part of his personality), but he was also deadly serious, within the parameters of the world he inhabited. A world of over-the-top costumed heroes and villains, a fictional city, etc. The Riddler was pretty sinister when you really stop and think about it. He was a genius who killed his boss, stole people's most private information, used people to get what he wanted, and he was a freaking stalker to boot. Was he the darkest villain? No. But The Riddler never really was.

I'm not bashing Forever's Riddler for not being serious, I'm saying he would of been more effective if the movie were more serious.

He wasn't a non-factor at all. The themes of vengeance and his parallells with Bruce, as well as his curious, sometimes dark, but driven nature, were done well, and so was the death of his parents. He was a non-factor because he had to be rescued from a supervillain, after making a pretty good choice not to kill another one of them? That makes every Robin story where that happened in the comics obsolete, I guess. And that would tend to exclude some of the best Robin stories there are.

Like I said, I thought he was portrayed well, but he hardly helped to save the day or stop any bad guys. The theme of vengeance against Two-Face was unfulfilled because he never got his vengeance against him. I would of been a lot more satisfied if he, not Batman, were the one to stop him at the end.

[The Guard]

I'm not bashing Forever's Riddler for not being serious, I'm saying he would of been more effective if the movie were more serious.

True. And this dual nature of the film is why so many seem to hate it. Parts of it were deadly serious. Parts of it were a circus.

Like I said, I thought he was portrayed well, but he hardly helped to save the day or stop any bad guys.

Except when he saved that girl from God knows how many glo-stick gang glo-sticks. And I guess he did look kinda cool in the Bat-boat. It was his first time out. A trial by fire, so to speak.

The theme of vengeance against Two-Face was unfulfilled because he never got his vengeance against him.

That was the point. Batman wanted better for Dick, and because of his influence, or his support, Dick chose not to kill Two-Face, but to pursue justice. Eventually, while he did not get vengeance, he did find closure when Two-Face died.

I would of been a lot more satisfied if he, not Batman, were the one to stop him at the end.

Stopped Two-Face? Perhaps, but they needed a way to get them out of that situation that didn't involve Robin killing.

[batmaluco]

It think BF was a half-decent Batman Film that can improve with the inclusion of the deleted scenes. We need a directors cut damnit!

[ab38416]

ab38416

[dude love]

Will you ever stop doing that?

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by batmaluco

It think BF was a half-decent Batman Film that can improve with the inclusion of the deleted scenes.

More or less, yes.