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Old 07-04-2011, 11:43 PM   #76
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Default Re: Was tying it off a good thing [SPOILERS]?

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Bumblebee actually was the only other Autobot with a distinct fighting style. I mean he wasn't an overgunned warrior like Ironhide, and he seemed to be really scrappy, and fought like a boxer. I liked all that. I mean everyone else usually just did the 'point and shoot' and maybe had a scene to display a cool power, but Bumblebee did seem have have his own way.

"IMO there's enough badass transformers to use".

Again these observations are meaningless in the world of Transformers. You may like Prowl (for example), but there are many, many characters who have been called Prowl and many of them "G1". Bumblebee is justified as a "badass" character. This is pretty much where the fiction had him going for a while at that point. Dreamwave had already dropped the whole "weakest of the Autobots routine", and were pretty much writing him like Hot Shot (who was basically a BB knockoff to begin with).
Outside of Prime and a few brief segments, no other Autobot was ever put in a position to fight hand to hand so BB having a "distinct" style is irrelevant. I definitely didn't see this boxing style that you're talking about.

And you're missing the point I have about BB being capable of fighting the way he does. The point is all the transformers are basically copies of one another. It would be nice to have them have a personality and style that endears each Transformer to us. They tried to do it in the first one but there wasn't much time to continue it. How cool would it have been to have BB as a covert specialist?

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Old 07-05-2011, 12:28 AM   #77
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Default Re: Was tying it off a good thing [SPOILERS]?

G1 ain't coming back. Sorry guys.

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Old 07-05-2011, 01:18 AM   #78
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Default Re: Was tying it off a good thing [SPOILERS]?

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How cool would it have been to have BB as a covert specialist?
Great idea! In fact, the next trilogy could scall things back and go for a covert/spy tone. Imagine if the Autobots had their own mini-team of Pretenders (Metalhawk, Lander, Diver, Phoenix)? Optimus could have them do stuff the others couldn't.

Visually, it could offer the series a fresh look-- Autobots going all "mission:impossible". Autobots in actual buildings! "Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!"

Narrative-wise, we could actually have the movie focus on the leader of this squad instead of an actual human. It'd be a great way to blend the human-stuff with the Transformers-stuff.

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Old 07-05-2011, 07:19 AM   #79
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Outside of Prime and a few brief segments, no other Autobot was ever put in a position to fight hand to hand so BB having a "distinct" style is irrelevant. I definitely didn't see this boxing style that you're talking about.

And you're missing the point I have about BB being capable of fighting the way he does. The point is all the transformers are basically copies of one another. It would be nice to have them have a personality and style that endears each Transformer to us. They tried to do it in the first one but there wasn't much time to continue it. How cool would it have been to have BB as a covert specialist?
Jazz was 'covert operations', Bumblebee was basically a scout, or a data collector in the original.

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Old 07-05-2011, 07:20 AM   #80
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Great idea! In fact, the next trilogy could scall things back and go for a covert/spy tone. Imagine if the Autobots had their own mini-team of Pretenders (Metalhawk, Lander, Diver, Phoenix)? Optimus could have them do stuff the others couldn't.

Visually, it could offer the series a fresh look-- Autobots going all "mission:impossible". Autobots in actual buildings! "Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!"

Narrative-wise, we could actually have the movie focus on the leader of this squad instead of an actual human. It'd be a great way to blend the human-stuff with the Transformers-stuff.
I like this idea, plus you could incorporate someone like Duhamel as Metalhawk to establish a very loose continuity.

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Old 07-05-2011, 07:25 AM   #81
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G1 ain't coming back. Sorry guys.
This is one of those things that bears repeating. G1 was been dead for over 22 years, Armada even beats it for 'longest and most profitable' incarnation. I think the movieverse they set up was fine, and frankly Bay left enough alone that anyone can come in a basically do what they want within certain parameters.

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Old 07-05-2011, 09:02 AM   #82
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Default Re: Was tying it off a good thing [SPOILERS]?

My guess is that Unicron or whoever the next villain is will ressurect Megatron as Galvatron.

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Old 07-05-2011, 12:18 PM   #83
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Ultra Magnus, as much as I like him, I think can be left alone. If he is included though they should be careful to not overload the next movie with a ton of new characters. I think Ultra Magnus needs some focus if he is to be included.

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Old 07-05-2011, 12:55 PM   #84
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I realize there is more than the cartoon. Again, I said proper trilogy WITH G1 characters, not proper G1 trilogy. And you may think that the original cartoon was bullcrap, but really, it's the most important thing that happend to Transformers. Taking obscure characters from the comics or from Armada would be a mistake imo.
First, Prowl, Trailbreaker, Windcharger, Gears, Huffer, Hound, Mirage, Sunstreaker, Thundercracker, Skywarp and Reflector to name a FEW would be characters featured in the cartoon (first season) that would be obscure to even someone familiar with the cartoon.

The cartoon had ZERO, count it ZERO character development, no storyarcs, no moments that affected the series outside of the 1986 movie. Vector Sigma? Promptly forgotten AND it conflicted with much of the series prior to it (such as the creation of the Dinobots). You really want to base a series of movies on a show that gave the Constructicons THREE distinct origins. That's how much that show didn't give a sh**.

Bay did more character development in his three movies than the entire three seasons of Transformers did, I mean that, and yes, that was not meant as a complement towards Bay.

Frankly you're better off fishing around in Beast Wars, Armada, Animated and Prime for ideas because at least they are trying to bring coherency to the Transformers Universe by tying the mythos together.

Currently there is no 'Phoenix Saga', 'Knightfall' or 'Demon in a Bottle' for Transformers to work off of. They've essentially got a basic premise and a couple of plot points to follow like 'Matrix' and 'Witwicky', but otherwise it's a pretty loose fiction. There are only a few stories in the TF Universe that have 'developed' the characters, but for the most part they are just unexplained soldiers whose purpose for being there is 'Hasbro made a toy'.

You'll see this all the time in you actually read the Transformers G1 comics from the 1980s. They'd start to go somewhere with say Skids, and then the storyline would be promptly dropped because Skids no longer was offered in stores (he was shortpackaged on top of it). The entire G1 Universe is just a never-ending line of dropped storylines and failed attempts at character development. Actually probably the most interesting story they did was to kill every Autobot except for Ratchet and then had Ratchet develop a rivalry with Megatron. That's right, in the comics Megatron and Optimus played second fiddle to the Ratchet and Megatron rivalry.

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Old 07-05-2011, 01:31 PM   #85
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Outside of Prime and a few brief segments, no other Autobot was ever put in a position to fight hand to hand so BB having a "distinct" style is irrelevant. I definitely didn't see this boxing style that you're talking about.

And you're missing the point I have about BB being capable of fighting the way he does. The point is all the transformers are basically copies of one another. It would be nice to have them have a personality and style that endears each Transformer to us. They tried to do it in the first one but there wasn't much time to continue it. How cool would it have been to have BB as a covert specialist?
Clearly this has nothing to do with the source material...

Bay should know better than to ruin a franchise. Focusing on a few characters while the rest seemed to be carbon copies of each other...

I mean what would've ever caused him to do that!?!

He also should've made sure every character is developed organically, instead of just revealing their character(s) through cornball dialogue and exposition...
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Old 07-05-2011, 03:19 PM   #86
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Default Re: Was tying it off a good thing [SPOILERS]?

I do think Optimus Prime had a few out of character moments, like summarily executing that Decepticon early in Revenge of the Fallen.

The fundamental problem with the Bay franchise is that it's not about the Transformers. It's about the humans. The Transformers are supporting cast members, at best. It doesn't want to be a Transformers movie.

A "real" Transformers movie would have a Transformer as a protagonist, or at least on equal footing with the human protagonist. There's a reason Bumblebee doesn't talk. He might overshadow Shia LaBeouf.

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Old 07-05-2011, 05:33 PM   #87
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The fundamental problem with the Bay franchise is that it's not about the Transformers. It's about the humans. The Transformers are supporting cast members, at best. It doesn't want to be a Transformers movie.
It reminds me of Superhero movies like Batman, Spider-Man etc. Those films obviously focus on Bruce's life/development or Peter's. The costumed versions of them (Bats, Spidey) are just on the screen for the cool flashy action. They're somewhat treated as different characters.

In these films, Sam was the Bruce/Peter character. And the Transformers were the Batman/Spider-Man characters. These filmmakers simply merged these actual different characters (Sam, Optimus) to continue the same Superhero formula.

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Old 07-05-2011, 05:42 PM   #88
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The fundamental problem with the Bay franchise is that it's not about the Transformers. It's about the humans. The Transformers are supporting cast members, at best. It doesn't want to be a Transformers movie.

A "real" Transformers movie would have a Transformer as a protagonist, or at least on equal footing with the human protagonist. There's a reason Bumblebee doesn't talk. He might overshadow Shia LaBeouf.
No the reason is one is a cartoon and one is a live action film, and therefore the live-action will always have to give greater weight to the humans. If you did a live-action which was all Autobots, and the humans were ants scurrying around their feet (much like a lot of the comic) it would simply be an animated feature (mostly, like 99% of it) and why would you bother making it live-action at that point. The Live-Action films were destined to follow Sam a little more. I never had a problem with that. I think Bay's basic issue from day one was his perchant for Hangover-style humor, which IMO doesn't mesh well with action. Outside of the 'Deep Wang' scene I thought he found a much better, much more subject appropriate balance. Transformers should have some silly humor, the show did, it doesn't need to reference "balls" and "butts" every six seconds like ROTF.

The OTHER thing I think Bay did wrong was nixing Welker as Megatron. I think ultimately Welker presence in the shaping of the film would've improved the overall presentation of Megatron which I feel turned out a little bland. Yes, Hugo Weaving has a devilish voice, but not the passion for the character and not the personal relationship with Cullen.

I also think in DOTM the inclusion of Dylan helped a lot. I've never seen Laserbeak exude so much personality in my life and those scenes, of him hunting the humans, were great. Dylan gave the Decepticons more chances to interact and talk about themselves, which was sorely lacking from the first two films.

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Old 07-05-2011, 05:43 PM   #89
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Great idea! In fact, the next trilogy could scall things back and go for a covert/spy tone. Imagine if the Autobots had their own mini-team of Pretenders (Metalhawk, Lander, Diver, Phoenix)? Optimus could have them do stuff the others couldn't.

Visually, it could offer the series a fresh look-- Autobots going all "mission:impossible". Autobots in actual buildings! "Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!"

Narrative-wise, we could actually have the movie focus on the leader of this squad instead of an actual human. It'd be a great way to blend the human-stuff with the Transformers-stuff.
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I like this idea, plus you could incorporate someone like Duhamel as Metalhawk to establish a very loose continuity.
Duhamel, could easily be their commander at NEST, but at this point shouldn't be retconed AS Metalhawk. Especially since the next series is going to need a new "star". Metalhawk provides that important link between the human/Autobot stories.

I kinda like Michael C. Hall (Dexter) as one of the Pretenders.

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Old 07-05-2011, 06:12 PM   #90
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Duhamel, could easily be their commander at NEST, but at this point shouldn't be retconed AS Metalhawk. Especially since the next series is going to need a new "star". Metalhawk provides that important link between the human/Autobot stories.

I kinda like Michael C. Hall (Dexter) as one of the Pretenders.
Oh you mean the whole "around for millions of years" Pretender origin. Yeah, if you did the Masterforce version you definitely couldn't have Duhamel as anyone (although maybe Optimus Prime's powermaster since Ginrai would be unnecessary here). Although I always thought that origin was pretty silly really.

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Old 07-05-2011, 08:38 PM   #91
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Oh you mean the whole "around for millions of years" Pretender origin. Yeah, if you did the Masterforce version you definitely couldn't have Duhamel as anyone (although maybe Optimus Prime's powermaster since Ginrai would be unnecessary here). Although I always thought that origin was pretty silly really.
No, no special origins for them. The 4 Pretenders could just have shown up on Earth after the events of TF3. TF2 already touched on the concept with Alice. But they should expand on these type of Transformers to change things up a little.

They could fill a unique "splinter-cell" role for the NEST or just Autobots team.

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Old 07-05-2011, 09:09 PM   #92
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Default Re: Was tying it off a good thing [SPOILERS]?

A reboot is absolutely necessary. I say give it 3 years and let a new creative team at it.
No more throwaway Decepticons. The 3 main Decepticons are Megatron, Soundwave, and Starscream. There can be atleast 7-9 named Autobots. Starting with Optimus, Bumblebee, Jazz, Ratchet, WheelJack and a few others. This time. Give the transformers personalities. Make them look closer to their original G1 look. More colorful and less jagged looking. Just doing what Im recommending here would make a world of difference and make it so that true fans and new fans can enjoy the movie alike... There is no reason we couldnt have had all that AND Baysploshins.

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Old 07-06-2011, 01:42 PM   #93
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A reboot is absolutely necessary. I say give it 3 years and let a new creative team at it.
No more throwaway Decepticons. The 3 main Decepticons are Megatron, Soundwave, and Starscream. There can be atleast 7-9 named Autobots. Starting with Optimus, Bumblebee, Jazz, Ratchet, WheelJack and a few others. This time. Give the transformers personalities. Make them look closer to their original G1 look. More colorful and less jagged looking. Just doing what Im recommending here would make a world of difference and make it so that true fans and new fans can enjoy the movie alike... There is no reason we couldnt have had all that AND Baysploshins.
Bay's redesigns quite honestly were the best addition to the franchise since it's inception in 1984. No more "blocky brickformers" please.

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Old 07-06-2011, 08:10 PM   #94
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Bay's redesigns quite honestly were the best addition to the franchise since it's inception in 1984. No more "blocky brickformers" please.
I was a purist when I heard about them making the first one. I even wanted Bumblebee to be a VW Beetle.

Bay did more good than bad.

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Old 07-07-2011, 01:41 PM   #95
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Spielberg will never direct a Transformers movie. Neither will James Cameron. It's time for these hopes to die.
You're right. I'll wait for Len Wiseman to take over.

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Old 07-07-2011, 01:51 PM   #96
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I was a purist when I heard about them making the first one. I even wanted Bumblebee to be a VW Beetle.

Bay did more good than bad.
There's no comparison. Before some wahoo posts a picture of Masterpiece Prime, let's get this clear, that would just look like a giant toy on screen. Something similar to Godzilla in the early films. Bay did an excellent job re-imagining their appearance, and quite frankly I think really made Starscream, Bumblebee and Optimus Prime look top notch. I understand the visceral reaction to the pencil stetch drawings that were released prior to the first film, but once I saw them in action onscreen I was definitely pleased.

G1 Purist are such a small fraction of the fanbase they are not even worth considering in a film. Transformers has been making more intricate and unique designs for over two decades now. I own so many G1 Transformers it's scary but I think what made them special was they were designed without much aid from computers, meaning a lot of effort went into each toy. That to me is cool. That said, the designs are primative and 'bendy metal' just doesn't hold up on a screen. I liked the redesigns a lot. Even Optimus Prime's flames eventually grew on me (although I admit, even in hindsight I probably would've adopted a different paint job).

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Old 07-07-2011, 09:18 PM   #97
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The OTHER thing I think Bay did wrong was nixing Welker as Megatron. I think ultimately Welker presence in the shaping of the film would've improved the overall presentation of Megatron which I feel turned out a little bland. Yes, Hugo Weaving has a devilish voice, but not the passion for the character and not the personal relationship with Cullen.
I agree. Especially after hearing how Welker's modified the voice for 'Prime'.

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