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Old 07-07-2011, 08:22 PM   #126
Vid Electricz
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Default Re: Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!

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So...What I find primarily interesting about this post is that it is out of the following;

A) Typical
B) Predictable
C) Redundant
D) Total BS

I guess this is meant to be a joke? A stab at irony? Surely you can't be serious...I guess this is what passes for wit these days.

It's funny that you mention how "typical" my arguments are, when every sentiment you've listed has been echoed over and over again in the form of transparent excuses and desperate justification defending these movies...which would make your comments accordingly predictable and redundant as well. Funny how that works.

Why? Because I can see you stomping your feet on the ground, MAD because a movie, a sense of entertainment carries...Propaganda. What a shock. Also, maybe you should realize that it's not so much promoting those stereotypes as noticing those types of personalities of people that come from every day life.


Let's be honest, you wish these movies made me mad. Perhaps your world is so black and white that if someone decides to take a look at and evaluate the nasty, trashy, negative parts of a "brainless" action movie and how they affect and reflect our nasty, trashy culture then that equates to being "Mad".

And then you start about how the "characters" (used very loosely) in this movie somehow reflect people in real life? You must hang out with a bunch of one-dimensional cardboard cut-outs then, 'cause there is no reflection of reality in these films. I hadn't had a good laugh until now. Thanks for that.


Because someone who doesn't speak spanish who has a spanish speaking friend and when in the heat of the situation wants that friend to speak english is racist? Interesting.

I believe the "English dude, english" is from the first movie when an American soldier recites this line to their middle-eastern tour guide. To me, this exemplifies the constant, pervading sense of "we're right, you're wrong" that is all over these movies. A lot of the jingoism in this movie is subtext...subtext that a grade schooler couldn't miss, but subtext nonetheless.

That's the thing about art (if you're generous). It can be interpreted and construed in ways the creator had never originally intended. It certainly doesn't mean one is "grasping at straws" because they see something you might not. But the fact of the matter is that once an artist (again, if you're generous) releases their creation, it can become subject to both scrutiny and praise. If I want to see the Transformers as an allegory for American foreign policy (which is legitimate), then I've got every right and if you want to see it as a "mindless action flick", that's your choice.


Sexism? Don't act like the body isn't attracted to actual physically appealing forms, big breasts, perky breasts, toned stomach, six pack abs, huge biceps etc etc, granted, everyone has their own fetish, but please don't parade around here, trolling like you're the defender of women's best interests.


Yeah, this is true (unless you're asexual, in which case, it isn't true). Tell me something LESS obvious please. My qualm, you would know, as you claim to have read my initial post is with the mindless and brainless objectification of women in these films. What you're saying is: "So what? Humans are sexual creatures" and what I'm saying is, why does that make it right to treat a person as an object, a trophy for your amusement and titillation? It doesn't. I mean, if you want porn, go watch porn. It's free. I never once claimed to be a "defender of women's best interests", but I am smart enough to know when a movie is offensively stupid and insulting to it's audience. This may come as a surprise but many people are sincere in what they say and believe. What would "trolling" about accomplish? I'm not looking to impress anyone. I would suppose you are projecting in this case as I don't say or do things for the sole reason of getting people to think about me a certain way. If that's the way you live your life, more power to you.


Homophobia, seriously? Grasping at straws here broseph. I don't know you, but this whole post you've created just screams "I AM THE PURVEYOR OF ALL THAT IS GOOD AND JUST IN THE WORLD!"

"Broseph". lulz. Again, it's subtext. It's the constant "macho, manly, tough guy, brute force solves everything" attitude. Where anyone that acts less than stoic and manly needs to "Go cry to your boyfriend. Pussy!". People who can read between the lines understand this kind of stuff (and many people have).


I don't know what some of you guys want these movies to be? The original G1 animated series? Well, if you want that, go watch those, and on your way to watch those, I don't want to hear "Well at least the cartoon series wasn't a vehicle to sell cars!" You're right. It was to sell toys. Watch a documentary or two.

I've never cared for the GI series, but as many have said, these movies could have been classics. It had much potential, but decided to cater to the lowest common denominator.

You may not like the stories contained within these films, and that's okay, but here's the thing. The world - fictional or not, contains personalities from nice, to mean as hell, to bi-polar, to motivated and self loathing. If you write a story people can't relate to with people from every day walks of life, then you have nothing.


Sorry, but what are you trying to say? That a movie is nothing if the characters don't act like real people?

Essentially, you are telling me that the Transformers movies are "nothing".

As with everything, it's not what you say, it's the way that you say it.

Michael Bay chose to say it in a hateful, shallow, superficial way.


Instead of cursing, maybe you'll want characters to say "Fishsticks! Golly goshdarn icecicles!"

Ha. Such wit, such charm, such verve. Later, "Broseph"

Oh boy, you sure put me in my place! lol.


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Old 07-07-2011, 08:49 PM   #127
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Default Re: Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!

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In the case of Rosie Huntington it is missplaced, in my opinion.
Then you should argue your case in manner other than "she's supposed to be sexualized, so that removes any misogynistic accusations from the table."

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Old 07-07-2011, 08:56 PM   #128
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Oh boy, you sure put me in my place! lol.

You really do have an, I'm better than you attitude.

By the way, the "English, dude. English," line is from the first movie when the Hispanic soldier went of on a rant in Spanish. My wife's family is Puerto Rican, and I can attest that this happens. I sometimes have to remind myself mother-in-law that I don't know all that much Spanish. So, that's example is not jingoism, but rather a simple request among buddies.

Why not respond to Spider-Who's post?

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Old 07-07-2011, 10:26 PM   #129
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I’m going to address these concerns the best I can, using their actual definitions to help clarify exactly what we’re talking about here.

Sexism - Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. Where is this in the movie? The only thing the movie does with the women that can be seen as a negative issue is the music video style shots of the attractive female leads. Are these shots necessary for their characters or story? No, but it is hardly sexist. Where is the stereotyping? As others have pointed out, both female leads broke through the typical damsel in distress cliché, and were actually quite strong and brave characters who fought along side the men in one fashion or another to defeat the bad guys. Yes, Rose’s character was kidnapped, but she certainly held her own in this situation, and even braved meeting Megatron face-to-face. Discrimination? Again, I don’t see it. These women were not made to sit ideally by to let the “strong men” take care of things. They were front and center throughout much of the situations. Never mind the government official calling the shots was a woman. All this taken into consideration, the only negative thing we can say is that the female leads were made to look sexy as well as being strong, aggressive characters. Looking sexy is not sexist. Unnecessary at times, sure, but certainly not sexist. In the theater I saw it at, there were several girls who screamed with young teen lust whenever certain male characters appeared. Their reaction does not make those characters’ portrayals sexist. One’s reaction to what they’re presented does not always equate to the intent of what they’re shown. I agree that the camera’s lingering went too far, but sexist the film is not.

Homophobia - An extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people. I don’t recall any homophobia in this movie. As another poster pointed out, there is a gay character (btw, how does including one equate to homophobia?), and this character does not fall for the typical gay cliché; he was actually quite the bad ass and personally, was one of my favorite characters. I don’t see how having an active, smart, physically capable gay character (whose sexuality is never made to be an issue) is evidence of homophobia.

Racism - A belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. Again, where are the examples that show this? Having the main characters be one race or the other does not equate to racism. Nevermind the fact that Bad Boys 2, arguably Bay's biggest film outside of this franchise, and a nearly completely black cast...why would a racist do that? Do you cry foul when a british movie features british actors in the title roles? There are certainly other races that live in England, but its primarily white british actors you see. Is that racist? Hardly. And to complain about Tyrese Gibson being a “stoic black man” is really grasping for straws, especially considering he was the voice of reason through the initial battle, and his buddies (also black) were integral parts of the winning side. All this taken into account, I really feel like you will look for ANY thing to gripe about, and the only way you’ll see something as racially acceptable is if Optimus spent half the movie proclaiming equality for all.

Jingoism - Extreme chauvinism or nationalism marked especially by a belligerent foreign policy. I think you’re confusing patriotism with jingoism. These are not the same thing. If you want to see jingoism in film, go watch Team America. And even when discussing patriotism, there is little in this movie. Having the military be an integral part to a sweeping sci-fi epic about aliens trying to take over the world is not patriotic – its logical. Especially when you’re wanting major action sequences. I see no cause for alarm or any sense of jingoism by incorporating the military into this type of movie. There was no sentiment of America being the greatest nation in all the land. But since this is a movie made in America, by Americans, taking place in America, you feel it is unnecessary to include the US military, or any sense of Americana? I think this boils down to you being from another country and not liking any indication that the movie takes place here. Simple as that.

My main point, is NOT that Michael Bay is Satan or Hitler (as some have said) creating some veiled manifesto for racism, sexism, jingoism and homophobia (among a million other things one might glean from these movies). I'm not calling for a mob to storm his mansion and lynch him. What I AM saying is that whether he knows it or not, he IS perpetuating negative stereotypes and portrayals of women and minorities. Usually, in movies, I ignore this kind of thing and write it off as an insipid waste of time (and as you know, I do think that), but with a series like this, I was rather fascinated that such a bombastic, mindlessly shallow movie with absolutely nothing going for it other than it's SFX, which was so insanely stupid and that insisted you be stupid too had become so popular. I'm not uptight or a prude by any means, but as I am prone to do, I began looking at what these movies were saying without really saying it. Follow?

Michael Bay knows what he's putting into his films, but he has no idea what he's saying or what messages (unintentional though they may be) he's conveying with the images and story he's choosing to tell.

For example, with the Bond films (not the last two), there was always a little wink to the camera as though to say "don't take this too seriously". The earlier Bond films operated in a different time when women weren't always (ever?) seen as equal to men (and were often expected to be in the kitchen where they belonged) and they most commonly played the "damsel in distress" which the hero needed to save (and then presumably bed). But that was a different time (Which didn't make it right). Since then we've gone through feminism and equal rights, etc... We've evolved a bit, so to speak. The Transformers films (and other films, yes) want to drag us back to the caveman days when men were men and women were arm-candy. Bay holds the women in his films to the same "damsel in distress" roles, but rather than the campy, corny "fun" they were in the past (or seemed to be anyway), Michael Bay, plants his actresses in the same roles, conforming to the archetypes of old without a wink and a nudge or a hint of wit or irony. This is the problem I have with the portrayal of women in these films.

You mention that the women were "strong, aggressive characters". I have to point out that this is fallacy. Take a look at this link as it goes into detail on why the "strong female characters" we see in movies these days are hardly characters at all, but rather a pastiche of traits and behaviors lazily slopped together to form some semblance what people think a " strong female character" should be.

http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/0...bad-for-women/


As for the racism, homophobia and jingoism- I don't think that Bay is a member of the KKK out to discredit or smear any particular race or country. but like I said, there is definitely a subtext to these movies (or any movie if you care to look), but the problem is the school-yard bully attitude which comes out loud and clear through the subtext.

In fact, I don't have any problem with America. I don't know why you'd think that I do. is it not possible to be critical of the way America is represented in a robot movie without being labelled anti-American? I didn't have a problem with the numerous American flags throughout the Spider-Man series and certainly not in films where it serves the story (any war films, I guess). I'm sorry to disappoint, but I certainly don't have a problem with patriotism. What I do have a problem with is the over-the-top, in-your-face fetishistic, masturbatory display of military fire-power and intense fascination with the military in a movie where it really isn't necessary- and everyone seems to answer to this, "well, what do you want, the military to do nothing against giant robots?" No, that's not what I said. Have the military there, fine. But it's certainly not necessary for the military to have such a prominent place in the series. in The Dark Knight did the movie focus on the Gotham city police force with only intermediate focus on Batman and the Joker? No, it focused on Batman and the Joker. Did the Hulk focus on the military trying to bring down the Hulk? It focused on the Hulk. Sure, he DID fight the military and they were there for the appropriate amount of time that they were needed to be to tell the story effectively. Just because the movie is written the way it is doesn't mean you can't critique what you feel was done effectively or ineffectively.

Take a look at this link. This guy goes into pretty good depth on the topic. Pretty thoughtful:

http://m0vie.wordpress.com/2011/06/2...ransformers-3/

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Old 07-07-2011, 10:27 PM   #130
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I didn't see a topic of this nature on this board, so I thought I'd start one.

I for one am both fascinated and perplexed by the sort of twisted hate and misogyny that these movies perpetuate. I find it hard to believe that people are actually entertained by this sort of stuff. If there's one thing that these movies do represent, it's the unfortunate future of action films (ie. soulless, emotionless husks filled with veiled hatred that exist solely for marketing purposes), because it's been proven that this kid of stuff sells.

Like the juvenile school-yard bully who calls anyone out as a f*ggot or homo for not agreeing or lining up with his narrow world-view of how men, women and minorities should be viewed, These films similarly mock and degrade unapologetically and if you don't like it- well, you're just a PC, liberal cry-baby. Brainwashing of the masses at it's finest.



Let's look at some of the wonderful ideals these movies promote (I know there are a million more examples. If you've got examples, post 'em):

-Sexism: Specifically, the objectification of women- Women are trophies to be won or lost. They must always appear sexy and seductive (for all the adolescent boys and peter-pan syndrome boy-men watching).

-Racism: If you're not white, you exist as a peripheral character. Most likely comic relief or some other stereotype (the stoic black man). In other words, you're disposable and you're a joke (blatantly racist buck toothed robots not withstanding).

-Jingoism: America is the best and the military is #1. English, dude, English.

-Homophobia: "You gonna go cry to your boyfriend? Pussy!" There's plenty more where that came from. Needless to say, these movies are riddled with the kind of sophomoric, juvenile macho-man, tough guy behavior that only the most ignorant among us (and little kids who don't know any better) buy in to.


But it's all so FUNNY! Right? So if you don't like it, you're just too uptight!

*Yawn*




Since these boards seem to be crawling with people who absolutely love these movies, I fully expect the response of:

"Lighten up. Not everything needs to be politically correct and "Disney-fied" Blah, blah blah, pus*syfication of America, blah, blah, blah."

Actually, no. The problem with brainless movies like these is that they endorse and perpetuate negative stereotypes and outright mocking of sexes, races and behaviors that you don't identify with- and of course, the behaviors you are meant to identify with are those of the hero. The promotion of ignorant bliss all disguised as a good fun action romp!)

People should really be insulted by this movie. Well, not by the movie itself, but by the attitudes of the film makers that they can just churn out any tripe and you'll gobble it up greedily.

+10 points for the response:

"Dude, it's just a movie. Chill." or

"It's just an action movie dude, you're supposed to turn off your brain and enjoy it for what it is."

Both awful responses for accepting this hateful garbage as entertainment.

predictable. Anyone got an actual response? I'd love if this could encourage some discussion.
Great post. I just wanted to see the movie for the action everyone was raving about, but it was totally not worth it. Me and my GF were cringing during most of the movie. Thanks for bringing this up, I hope it opens up a lot of people's eyes who blindly support this filth here.

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Old 07-07-2011, 11:00 PM   #131
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Great post. I just wanted to see the movie for the action everyone was raving about, but it was totally not worth it. Me and my GF were cringing during most of the movie. Thanks for bringing this up, I hope it opens up a lot of people's eyes who blindly support this filth here.

Thanks Rob. Take a look at the two articles I linked to in my previous post. I also happen to find "Cringe worthy" to be the perfect term to describe these movies.

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Old 07-07-2011, 11:43 PM   #132
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Default Re: Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!

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Great post. I just wanted to see the movie for the action everyone was raving about, but it was totally not worth it. Me and my GF were cringing during most of the movie. Thanks for bringing this up, I hope it opens up a lot of people's eyes who blindly support this filth here.
Ya, the cringe factor was extremely high. I almost felt insulted as a human being with a brain that Bay tried to pass this off as a feature length film. Multiple times I threw my hands up and rolled my eyes at the sheer stupidity on display.


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Old 07-08-2011, 01:10 AM   #133
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I could say something, pointing out the flaws is your reply to Spider-Who, but it's late, and I have wasted enough time on fruitless endeavors today.

There is an old saying, "Seek, and and ye shall find." It basically means, if you go looking hard enough for something, you will find it. In some cases, you can even find things that aren't really there, you just imagine them, and the mind makes it seem real. So, enjoy your search.

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Old 07-08-2011, 03:26 AM   #134
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Default Re: Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!

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My main point, is NOT that Michael Bay is Satan or Hitler (as some have said) creating some veiled manifesto for racism, sexism, jingoism and homophobia (among a million other things one might glean from these movies). I'm not calling for a mob to storm his mansion and lynch him. What I AM saying is that whether he knows it or not, he IS perpetuating negative stereotypes and portrayals of women and minorities. Usually, in movies, I ignore this kind of thing and write it off as an insipid waste of time (and as you know, I do think that), but with a series like this, I was rather fascinated that such a bombastic, mindlessly shallow movie with absolutely nothing going for it other than it's SFX, which was so insanely stupid and that insisted you be stupid too had become so popular. I'm not uptight or a prude by any means, but as I am prone to do, I began looking at what these movies were saying without really saying it. Follow?

Michael Bay knows what he's putting into his films, but he has no idea what he's saying or what messages (unintentional though they may be) he's conveying with the images and story he's choosing to tell.

For example, with the Bond films (not the last two), there was always a little wink to the camera as though to say "don't take this too seriously". The earlier Bond films operated in a different time when women weren't always (ever?) seen as equal to men (and were often expected to be in the kitchen where they belonged) and they most commonly played the "damsel in distress" which the hero needed to save (and then presumably bed). But that was a different time (Which didn't make it right). Since then we've gone through feminism and equal rights, etc... We've evolved a bit, so to speak. The Transformers films (and other films, yes) want to drag us back to the caveman days when men were men and women were arm-candy. Bay holds the women in his films to the same "damsel in distress" roles, but rather than the campy, corny "fun" they were in the past (or seemed to be anyway), Michael Bay, plants his actresses in the same roles, conforming to the archetypes of old without a wink and a nudge or a hint of wit or irony. This is the problem I have with the portrayal of women in these films.

You mention that the women were "strong, aggressive characters". I have to point out that this is fallacy. Take a look at this link as it goes into detail on why the "strong female characters" we see in movies these days are hardly characters at all, but rather a pastiche of traits and behaviors lazily slopped together to form some semblance what people think a " strong female character" should be.

http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/0...bad-for-women/
The link you posted is great. It's also notable how badly Transformers 3 fails the Bechdel Test: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLF6sAAMb4s

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Old 07-08-2011, 03:40 AM   #135
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Michael Bay knows what he's putting into his films, but he has no idea what he's saying or what messages (unintentional though they may be) he's conveying with the images and story he's choosing to tell. [
He knows exactly what hes saying he just doesnt give a ****. He thinks its cool and funny, and a majority of his audience think so too. Some people arent so sensitive to this stuff, and if you are that doesnt make it wrong but this whole movies a big joke and most people are in on it. Its supposed to make you laugh or go wow huge explosion. Thats it.

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For example, with the Bond films (not the last two), there was always a little wink to the camera as though to say "don't take this too seriously". The earlier Bond films operated in a different time when women weren't always (ever?) seen as equal to men (and were often expected to be in the kitchen where they belonged) and they most commonly played the "damsel in distress" which the hero needed to save (and then presumably bed). But that was a different time (Which didn't make it right). Since then we've gone through feminism and equal rights, etc... We've evolved a bit, so to speak.
Dude first of all this movie is one big giant wink saying. THIS IS A ****ING JOKE. Dont take it seriously. Its looney toons goofy. He gave a Decipticon Balls. Bay winks to the audience every 5 sec to let them know, this movie is BS. Bay said some people dont get it, its a silly movie. Hes right.

We are more evolved dealing within the real world with these issues.But were talking about films giving off messages. In film Sex,violence, is way more accepted today then it was back then and it will continue to push further and further. Homophobia and Racism in film has gone through lots of changes so Ill agree there. But its still pushed in crude humor ways and that will also try to out do itself. How Transformers actually effects society because of its horrible humor and hot women shots will not be an issue. People enjoy these movies, most walk out excited and laughing others say it was a horrible piece of **** like ROTF but... They dont become sexist racists.

Sorry Vid I know I sound like a broken record here but I would really like to know why you would continue to support all three of these films with your money and time?


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Old 07-08-2011, 04:41 AM   #136
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Sorry Vid I know I sound like a broken record here but I would really like to know why you would continue to support all three of these films with your money and time?
I'm actually curious about that myself, why would you(Vid) or anyone for that matter tear down a movie they themselves paid to go see? You can't really argue that you are shocked by what's in them if you've seen the first two.

If I felt this strongly about the lack of anything in Bay's films I wouldn't sit around going: "I'm going to show Michael Bay just what I think of him by paying money to see his movie and then ripping it to shreds". That'd be me wasting my own time and money.

Sounds like one of those folks who paid to see Charlie Sheen's show then wanted their money back. Too late, he's got your money. And you just gave him some nice positive reinforcement.

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Old 07-08-2011, 04:56 AM   #137
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Yeah ROTF got hit hard with racism comments because of The Twins. People ripped it apart way more then the First one. I have no idea why you would see these films and support them making more if someone felt so strongly against it and more so if it actually offends the person. Get your money back,walk out or switch movies.

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Old 07-08-2011, 05:25 AM   #138
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Yeah ROTF got hit hard with racism comments because of The Twins. People ripped it apart way more then the First one. I have no idea why you would see these films and support them making more if someone felt so strongly against it and more so if it actually offends the person. Get your money back,walk out or switch movies.

Exactly. Bay's movies have a specific formula and he's not bound to switch up anytime soon. Of course that doesn't completely discredit what the OP said. I think some of the points (sexism) hit harder than the others (racism) but paying to view something you are hyper-aware you'd hate, on those points alone, makes people give you the side eye. You can't partake in the enjoyment while simultaneously looking down your nose at it.

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Old 07-08-2011, 05:32 AM   #139
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Then you should argue your case in manner other than "she's supposed to be sexualized, so that removes any misogynistic accusations from the table."
I should have, you're right, sometimes I take for granted the underlying meaning of what I wrote.

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Old 07-08-2011, 06:35 AM   #140
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He knows exactly what hes saying he just doesnt give a ****. He thinks its cool and funny, and a majority of his audience think so too. Some people arent so sensitive to this stuff, and if you are that doesnt make it wrong but this whole movies a big joke and most people are in on it. Its supposed to make you laugh or go wow huge explosion. Thats it.



Dude first of all this movie is one big giant wink saying. THIS IS A ****ING JOKE. Dont take it seriously. Its looney toons goofy. He gave a Decipticon Balls. Bay winks to the audience every 5 sec to let them know, this movie is BS. Bay said some people dont get it, its a silly movie. Hes right.

We are more evolved dealing within the real world with these issues.But were talking about films giving off messages. In film Sex,violence, is way more accepted today then it was back then and it will continue to push further and further. Homophobia and Racism in film has gone through lots of changes so Ill agree there. But its still pushed in crude humor ways and that will also try to out do itself. How Transformers actually effects society because of its horrible humor and hot women shots will not be an issue. People enjoy these movies, most walk out excited and laughing others say it was a horrible piece of **** like ROTF but... They dont become sexist racists.

Sorry Vid I know I sound like a broken record here but I would really like to know why you would continue to support all three of these films with your money and time?

I did pay to see the first one in 2007 (which, granted, wasn't as bad as the 2nd and 3rd) and there was no need to pay for the two following as my friend works at a movie theater.

I'm not being literal saying people are going to walk out of these movies and become nazi's and racists or whatever, I just think that something of this scale and this popular needs to be a bit more sensitive than these movies. And I'm not being a cream-puff here as tons of other people share these sentiments as well. Why don't ANY of Steven Spielberg's movies contain the kind of over the top zealotry that Bay's do? Because Spielberg can tell a good story without needing to cater to the lowest common denominator. That's why.

And I know that I saw these movies as jokes, but Bay, other than the extremely obvious slapstick moments takes these movies deadly serious. That's why I didn't feel there was any wink at the camera, so to speak. That kind of thing occurs in a movie when the film maker KNOWS what's happening in the movie is ridiculous and absurd and they acknowledge it in some way. Bay plays the melodrama and romance straight up serious. That's the point I was getting at.

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Old 07-08-2011, 06:45 AM   #141
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I could say something, pointing out the flaws is your reply to Spider-Who, but it's late, and I have wasted enough time on fruitless endeavors today.

There is an old saying, "Seek, and and ye shall find." It basically means, if you go looking hard enough for something, you will find it. In some cases, you can even find things that aren't really there, you just imagine them, and the mind makes it seem real. So, enjoy your search.

Go ahead. point out the flaws. I'm sure they're there. I for one am aware that I'm not writing a graduate thesis here.

Again, here we go with the "don't think so much." Did you read in that very post that you note is flawed how I point out that ALL art is open to interpretation. Anything I find to analyze in these movies is just as valid as you wanting to find nothing.

I can counter your "Seek, and and ye shall find" it by saying that exercising critical thought and analysis is NEVER a "fruitless endeavor". I would even go so far as to say that many people these days are content not to question much of anything but rather sit back and enjoy their "mindless entertainment." These things are there, in front of your face, but people have been conditioned not to question or analyze. It takes a little effort on the part of the viewer to see them. Not everything just "is what it is".

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Old 07-08-2011, 08:00 AM   #142
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Default Re: Sexism, Racism, Jingoism and Homophobia- That's entertainment!

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And I know that I saw these movies as jokes, but Bay, other than the extremely obvious slapstick moments takes these movies deadly serious. That's why I didn't feel there was any wink at the camera, so to speak. That kind of thing occurs in a movie when the film maker KNOWS what's happening in the movie is ridiculous and absurd and they acknowledge it in some way. Bay plays the melodrama and romance straight up serious. That's the point I was getting at.
I certainly felt this way about the first one (the only one I've seen). The robots are treated as big jokes for practically the whole first half of the movie, there's broad, frat-boy level comedy left and right, and then suddenly, when Bubblebee is getting captured by the military the forlorn violins come in and we're supposed to feel for him like he's Kong. Yeah, whatever Michael Bay. You have to earn moments like that. No consistency in tone whatsoever.

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Old 07-08-2011, 10:57 AM   #143
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So basically, you're better than everyone else because of your opinion. Awesome. I can't help but see the "Problem?" troll face typing behind a computer screen.

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Old 07-08-2011, 07:17 PM   #144
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The link you posted is great. It's also notable how badly Transformers 3 fails the Bechdel Test: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLF6sAAMb4s

That's great! I hadn't heard of that before. Also, her video on "Sucker Punch" hit the nail on the head. It perfectly articulated my thoughts on it.

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Old 07-08-2011, 10:38 PM   #145
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God damn, I hate feminists.

And again, Vid, you didn't reply to my post.

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Old 07-08-2011, 11:48 PM   #146
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-Homophobia: "You gonna go cry to your boyfriend? Pussy!"
Oddly enough, this reminded me of the first Spider-Man movie from 2002, where Peter is taunting Bonesaw McGraw in the wresting ring by saying "Nice outfit - did your husband make it for you?" It got some cheap laughs in the theater nine years ago, but is it still really that funny today? I thought it seemed a bit out of character for Peter Parker even back then.

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Old 07-08-2011, 11:59 PM   #147
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God damn, I hate feminists.

And again, Vid, you didn't reply to my post.

And they hate you.




I'm not "offended" by the subject matter of or any specific instances of racism, sexism, etc...in these films. Like I said, I'm no prude. The truly offensive thing about these films is that they prey on the stupidity of the audience. They insult the audience by feeding them mindless, simplistic, inane stereotypes and and expect them to be happy with it. Get it now? They are so low-brow and so bottom of the barrel that they are basically made for idiots. They are telling you that to enjoy these films, you must be an idiot. They expect nothing of the audience's intelligence and in turn the audience expects nothing but meaningless entertainment. "Just turn off your brain and enjoy" becomes the slogan for every new movie released. If you don't want to face that fact, then fine. Look at the world through rose colored lenses. The cold hard truth hurts.

I could reply to your post comprehensively and systematically, point by point, but honestly, it's not saying anything that hasn't been said. Your replies typically start with "No, it was like this-" and then you list an example while missing out on the big picture of what I'm getting at (which I listed above and several times throughout this thread.You go on about how there were "strong female characters" so it's OK that they were objectified, etc... I've had my say on this if you care to go back and read (also, please refer to the link I posted earlier for more on this).

So yeah, everything you've said has already been covered. It all falls under the same umbrella. You're sure not going to change my mind about this just as I'm sure I won't change yours, the difference though is in the willingness to see beyond the comfort of "your world" as you put it, (again, you don't know my background and I don't know yours). But if you don't see these problems around you all the time either personally or in society at large, then you are living either a very sheltered or a blissfully ignorant life.

I certainly shared a somewhat similar attitude when I was younger. I was CERTAIN that people that analyzed and made statements about media like this were pretentious, smug and self-righteous. I "knew" in my mind that they were just wasting their time over thinking things. As I've come to learn over the years, using your brain for critical analysis, studying the way our society operates and the psychology behind it is NOT a waste of time. I've learned that the simplistic attitude where a "cigar is just a cigar" and "it is what it is" are what was truly pretentious and smug in it's contented ignorance. The insistence and indignant stance that it's meaningless to look deeper into anything, (even something seemingly trivial) is every bit as smug and self-righteous in it's stubborn and unwavering denial to even consider that these things might exist.

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Old 07-09-2011, 12:04 AM   #148
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Oddly enough, this reminded me of the first Spider-Man movie from 2002, where Peter is taunting Bonesaw McGraw in the wresting ring by saying "Nice outfit - did your husband make it for you?" It got some cheap laughs in the theater nine years ago, but is it still really that funny today? I thought it seemed a bit out of character for Peter Parker even back then.
I've never known high schoolers to be particularly politically correct.

I'm not defending it, just saying it's not a stretch.

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Old 07-09-2011, 12:31 AM   #149
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Oddly enough, this reminded me of the first Spider-Man movie from 2002, where Peter is taunting Bonesaw McGraw in the wresting ring by saying "Nice outfit - did your husband make it for you?" It got some cheap laughs in the theater nine years ago, but is it still really that funny today? I thought it seemed a bit out of character for Peter Parker even back then.
Yeah, I remember thinking it was a bit out of place even back then.

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Old 07-09-2011, 12:32 AM   #150
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I've never known high schoolers to be particularly politically correct.

I'm not defending it, just saying it's not a stretch.
Well, he's a highschooler who's a superhero whom little kids look up to, that's written by adults.

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