The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is Here

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is Here

[TruerToTheCore]

Well, the early Superman origin was a little bit in flux. At first there weren't any Kents, it was the famous "passing motorist" who found the baby and gave him to a orphanage. Thus this aspect is a remnant of the early concept. I prefer it to be gone, I like streamlined origins (Doomed Planet - Desperate Scientists - Last Hope - Friendly Couple), it doesn't need to get overly complex. Some additions are good, but the basic premise should be able to be told in a few words. More iconic and fitting for a mythological character like Superman.

I don't have a problem with slightly different versions, I mean, every myth has its permutations and differences - as long as the core is still there. And the core is definitely not "Clark is Who I am and Superman Is What I Can Do."

[camp Blood]

in the movie the kents explained Clark was the child of a recently deceased relative right?

[The Red Hood]

not a victim wrote:
Supes had to have a change. He was so powerful, and one-dimensinoal, it needed to happen.
I liked the "depowering' that happened, as there was no real threat he couldn't must muscle over.
I know I'll rock the boat with this one, but I've thought for a couple of years they should retcon Supes. Scale his powers back greatly, and do away with his weakness in the presence of kryptonite. WHen he was almost god-like in his powers, he needed a weakness, but just depower him, and get rid of it.

Have you actually read stories featuring this "Supes" you speak of? I assume you're referring to the Silver Age Superman. Have you read any of those stories? There isn't ONE that features a "one-dimensional' Superman.

And of course there were threats he had to face. Either characters or situations more powerful than him, or best of all, situations that tested his heart, his values, his recognition that despite his power, he couldn't do everything and save everyone.

The fact that he was different, alone, and that the only people that really understood him in both lives were either dead or few and far between. Even Supergirl couldn't identify with him.

And if you want to "de-power" Superman, then you probably really just want to read about another character who isn't as powerful. I hate it when people say "change this character into something it isn't so that it resembles another character I like more or I can identify with." That's a horribly uncreative and small approach to creativity.

We're not supposed to identify with every character, and identification can mean a lot of different things. So too does weakness.

[JAK®]

Originally Posted by not_a_victim

Supes had to have a change. He was so powerful, and one-dimensinoal, it needed to happen.
I liked the "depowering' that happened, as there was no real threat he couldn't must muscle over.
I know I'll rock the boat with this one, but I've thought for a couple of years they should retcon Supes. Scale his powers back greatly, and do away with his weakness in the presence of kryptonite. WHen he was almost god-like in his powers, he needed a weakness, but just depower him, and get rid of it

You have never read a pre-crisis Superman comic.

[Kurosawa]

Originally Posted by The Red Hood

Have you actually read stories featuring this "Supes" you speak of? I assume you're referring to the Silver Age Superman. Have you read any of those stories? There isn't ONE that features a "one-dimensional' Superman.

And of course there were threats he had to face. Either characters or situations more powerful than him, or best of all, situations that tested his heart, his values, his recognition that despite his power, he couldn't do everything and save everyone.

The fact that he was different, alone, and that the only people that really understood him in both lives were either dead or few and far between. Even Supergirl couldn't identify with him.

And if you want to "de-power" Superman, then you probably really just want to read about another character who isn't as powerful. I hate it when people say "change this character into something it isn't so that it resembles another character I like more or I can identify with." That's a horribly uncreative and small approach to creativity.

We're not supposed to identify with every character, and identification can mean a lot of different things. So too does weakness.

Awesome post and completely accurate.

Why people have this obsession with continuing with a Marvelized Superman when it has been a proven failure for 25 years is beyond me. What, it's magically going to work now when it's failed for a quarter of a century?

[ChickenScratch]

It's because literature as a whole has become obsessed with weakness. Art in general really. No character can be an end in himself, everyone has to be flawed or weak or have some sort of addiction (which would be great if they ever triumphed over it, but then never do anymore). It's an attempt to take the "heroic" and treat it as the ordinary. Any failings to tell an effective story of Superman is a failing by the writer and an admission of weakness at his won craft. But then I'm just some guy who's a fan of romanticism and the Greek Ideal when it comes to heroes.

[Keyser Soze]

Just popping in, as I do periodically, to say that I'd be fine with the costume looking pretty much like it does in the promotional artwork we've seen for the DC Relaunch.

[KyleDW2]

Originally Posted by Kurosawa

Awesome post and completely accurate.

Why people have this obsession with continuing with a Marvelized Superman when it has been a proven failure for 25 years is beyond me. What, it's magically going to work now when it's failed for a quarter of a century?

Because you saying that the past 25 years are a failure is an opinion. The fact that you are so arrogant as to believe that your personal bias equals the undisputed truth is beyond me.

Also, this quote:

Originally Posted by Kurosawa

99% of Superman fans love All-Star Superman, and it was well-received by critics. That's the Superman people want.

Superman: Red Son sold pretty well too. Most people love it from what I remember. Guess the world really wants a communist Superman. Oh, and didn't Earth One sell big time and get some good reviews?

[sepharih]

Originally Posted by KyleDW2

Superman: Red Son sold pretty well too. Most people love it from what I remember. Guess the world really wants a communist Superman. Oh, and didn't Earth One sell big time and get some good reviews?

^Excellent point. Actually, if we want to use sales numbers to try and justify what version of Supes most people want...I think a lot of people want Superman dead.

[Cav-El]

Nothing in this thread is about costume I am confused.

[sepharih]

Originally Posted by Cav-El

Nothing in this thread is about costume I am confused.

Oh you silly person, costume discussion is for the fan art and manips thread.

[JAK®]

Originally Posted by KyleDW2

Superman: Red Son sold pretty well too. Most people love it from what I remember. Guess the world really wants a communist Superman. Oh, and didn't Earth One sell big time and get some good reviews?

Red Son has a lot of basis in pre-crisis sensibilities, including the whole 'what if' angle.

[sepharih]

Originally Posted by JAK®

Red Son has a lot of basis in pre-crisis sensibilities, including the whole 'what if' angle.

That's not really an answer to his challenge.

[TheIncredibleSk]

Kuro states his snobby opinions like their facts. Im used to it by now.

[Sabaoth]

Originally Posted by KyleDW2

Because you* saying that the past 25 years are a failure is an opinion. The fact that you are so arrogant as to believe that your personal bias equals the undisputed truth is beyond me.

*Kurosawa.

[Sabaoth]

Originally Posted by Cav-El

Nothing in this thread is about costume I am confused.

The "official costume thread" is actually a cover for the real name of this thread. It's really the "He's MY Superman and you can't have him. Either you interpret him EXACTLY as I do, or you're an idiot, stupid, deconstructionist, pick your label, etc." thread!

[Karelia]

Originally Posted by Sabaoth

The "official costume thread" is actually a cover for the real name of this thread. It's really the "He's MY Superman and you can't have him. Either you interpret him EXACTLY as I do, or you're an idiot, stupid, deconstructionist, pick your label, etc." thread!

Most sensible post on this page.

[Kurosawa]

Originally Posted by KyleDW2

Because you saying that the past 25 years are a failure is an opinion. The fact that you are so arrogant as to believe that your personal bias equals the undisputed truth is beyond me.

Also, this quote:



Superman: Red Son sold pretty well too. Most people love it from what I remember. Guess the world really wants a communist Superman. Oh, and didn't Earth One sell big time and get some good reviews?

I could post 60's Superman sales rankings with 6 Superman family titles in the top ten and late 80-to present sales ranking with Superman books in the mid 30's, but you'd just ignore them again.

#33 and #35 is a lower ranking than #1 and #2, btw.

Market share the precious Post-Crisis version was a mediocre seller, and the Pre-Crisis version was by far the biggest character in comics.

Just think, all those supposedly stupid Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane comics from the 60's OUTSOLD Spider-Man. Superman was so huge in the 60's that more people wanted to watch his best friend bicker with his shrew of a girlfriend than read Marvel's titles.

I don't think you guys comprehend just HOW big Superman was in the 60's. Think Harry Potter, but on steroids. It would be like a spinoff book with Ron and Neville being the #1 book and film. That's how big Superman family comics were. In the 60's, Superman was in EIGHT books a MONTH. Now, he has two, if you want to count Action which starred Lex Luthor for the past year.

Post-Crisis Superman never dominated the sales charts and comics market share like the supposedly silly and outdated Pre-Crisis version did.

[TheIncredibleSk]

Um Kuro like you just kept on saying. IT WAS THE 60'S. Is this the freaking 60's? No, Its not. People wouldn't buy that crap today and you know it so stop posting BS. Plus all comic sales have went down from the 60's so you using that argument is weak.

[solidsnake86]

Here's my thing Kurosawa, if it was doing so well before post crisis why didn't they just continue on with it. You have no way of knowing that that would still be successful today because times do change. That said, have you read the grant morrison interview where he says he wants to take the character back to how he originally appeared in 38'. Thought you might like that, its on the superman homepage.

[sepharih]

Originally Posted by TheIncredibleSk

Um Kuro like you just kept on saying. IT WAS THE 60'S. Is this the freaking 60's? No, Its not. People wouldn't buy that crap today and you know it so stop posting BS. Plus all comic sales have went down from the 60's so you using that argument is weak.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if he thinks that all superhero comics would go back to their old sales numbers if they went back to the 60's writing.

Originally Posted by Kurosawa

I could post 60's Superman sales rankings with 6 Superman family titles in the top ten and late 80-to present sales ranking with Superman books in the mid 30's, but you'd just ignore them again.

#33 and #35 is a lower ranking than #1 and #2, btw.

Market share the precious Post-Crisis version was a mediocre seller, and the Pre-Crisis version was by far the biggest character in comics.

Just think, all those supposedly stupid Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane comics from the 60's OUTSOLD Spider-Man. Superman was so huge in the 60's that more people wanted to watch his best friend bicker with his shrew of a girlfriend than read Marvel's titles.

I don't think you guys comprehend just HOW big Superman was in the 60's. Think Harry Potter, but on steroids. It would be like a spinoff book with Ron and Neville being the #1 book and film. That's how big Superman family comics were. In the 60's, Superman was in EIGHT books a MONTH. Now, he has two, if you want to count Action which starred Lex Luthor for the past year.

Post-Crisis Superman never dominated the sales charts and comics market share like the supposedly silly and outdated Pre-Crisis version did.

You understand that it's not just the character who has changed with the 60's...right? People's tastes and preferences evolved as well.

[Excelsior.]

Yes. People are more afraid of sex and fun now.

[Kurosawa]

Originally Posted by TheIncredibleSk

Um Kuro like you just kept on saying. IT WAS THE 60'S. Is this the freaking 60's? No, Its not. People wouldn't buy that crap today and you know it so stop posting BS. Plus all comic sales have went down from the 60's so you using that argument is weak.

Your ignorance is amazing. Comic sales in general is down, but the point is Superman's market share is way down. From top ten to mid-thirties is a huge decline.

Originally Posted by solidsnake86

Here's my thing Kurosawa, if it was doing so well before post crisis why didn't they just continue on with it. You have no way of knowing that that would still be successful today because times do change. That said, have you read the grant morrison interview where he says he wants to take the character back to how he originally appeared in 38'. Thought you might like that, its on the superman homepage.

Sales on Superman titles began to decline in the early 80's when they longtime Superman writers Elliot S! Maggin, Cary Bates, and Marty Pasko left the titles and were replaced with lesser Marvel writers like Gerry Conway and Marv Wolfman. Some of those same writers convinced the executives at DC that Superman and the DCU in general was fundamentally flawed, which led to COIE and the Superman revamp. 25 years and 5 universal reboots later, DC is still a distant #2 to Marvel and Superman comics are bland, middle of the road selling books.

As for Grant's new direction, I expect good things from it but unfortunately the lawsuits will limit just how iconic their Superman will be...they're losing a lot of key components.