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Old 07-16-2011, 02:08 AM   #51
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

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overall, this isn't bad. But, I really dislike the "speedo" trunk look.

IF you are going to use trunks, imo, you need to make them longer ( like wrestler trunks that extend halfway down the thighs ). you need to get away from the "underwear" or "speedo" or "diaper/granny panties" look in order for it to not look too silly.
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Old 07-16-2011, 02:19 AM   #52
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

You hear that sound? Thats my point going over your head. The characters Kirby and Lee didn't do great at first. New and untested properties in comics in those days weren't going to touch Archie at first, of course. But it set the ground for the comics we saw in the 70's,80's,90's,00's.

When Lee and Kirby's characters started to become popular they like what they saw. It was new and fresh and groundbreaking. A teen Superhero who's not a sidekick. No way could it be done. A team of adventures each with a different personality and different powers. No way. A group of top superhero's who weren't best buddies and had fights. No way. You get my picture. Lee and Kirby created a new era heroes weren't perfect and had problems just like any other person. Their characters were relatable and after a while people ate that **** up. If I ran a business and I see these characters are suddenly outselling my characters, im going to see what their doing with their characters and try to put it into my characters. Thats just common sense.

Yes Superman was more popular in the 60's but after marvel came and changed the game, of course Superman wasn't gonna be popular. He had to become more relatable and more modern and more marvel I guess to stay relevant and stay popular. And throughout the late 80's to middle 90's he was popular. He was never a failure during that time. And he only lost popularity due to bad writing. Thats it.

I can see clearly after doing research and using common ****ing sense that you just miss the comics of your generation and thats cool. But can we still stop that BS argument that he's a failure that always use. Because he's not. Superman has been in the top 20 when they put a good writer,good artist, and they tell a good story. They just don't do that a lot.

Also it'll sell because it has Grant Morrison on it. So Yeah.

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Old 07-16-2011, 02:22 AM   #53
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

Comics these days mostly sell because of Star writers,gimmicks, and promotion. Not because of characters. Marvel sells hugely because of that.

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Old 07-16-2011, 02:37 AM   #54
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

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Those 60's numbers are impressive but that was a totally different era and you know it. Superman had to be modernize to survive in the 90's and did really well at a time where DC wasn't selling at all and he was still in the 25. Don't argue bs like a more bronze age Superman title would have worked in the 90s when thats bs. JLA was the only DC to regularly get in the top 10 from DC in the 90's. Thats a fact. Nothing from DC was selling so that "failure" stuff is bs and bias. Jimmy Olsen was gonna sell in the 90's and neither will now. Bronze age Superman wouldn't have sold any better than post crisis Superman. Its a bias and BS argument on your part.
It's also a fact that JLA was one of the most Silver-Bronze Age influenced titles around at the time. Grant Morrison wrote his Superman in JLA(even when he was electric blue) as close as he possibly could to the Pre-Crisis version(hell, DC ONE MILLION was pretty much all about the VERY Pre-Crisis concept of Superman living for countless thousands of years inside the sun, just like in All-Star). And yet this version of Superman who you seem to think could never work in the modern age was one of the stars of DC's biggest title at the time. You seem to have some assumptions that serious stories CAN'T be told about that version of the character, that he would utterly fail in the modern age because the stories would all be about Jimmy Olsen turning into Turtle-Boy, or Superman turning into a monkey from Red Kryptonite or some other silly thing. This simply isn't the case, there's alot of story possibility, as shown by Morrison's JLA, in a more Pre-Cris portrayal of Superman, as long as the stories themselves are modern, exciting, and compelling. Just because the Silver-Age had many fairly hokey concepts(It was the Silver-Age after all, even Marvel had a fair amount of cheese) doesn't mean that the basic concept of WHO that version of Superman is is automatically corny.

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Old 07-16-2011, 02:52 AM   #55
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

Grant Morrison on JLA. With the big seven. That automatically sells itself. It didn't which Superman it was on that title. It was gonna sell. The thing is with that version of Superman. It wouldn't have worked. Thats it. Look at what was selling. Spawn, X-men, All that dark ******** at the time. People in the nineties liked flawed heroes. Thats a fact because that was what selling. Yes you can do serious stories with the silver age Superman. But its more than that that. People's taste in characters and what they wanted in characters changed. They wanted "human" characters. Characters that weren't perfect and were relatable and silver age Superman is not that. Serious stories can be told with the lightest of characters. That doesn't mean that audiences will like them.

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Old 07-16-2011, 03:22 AM   #56
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

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Originally Posted by TheIncredibleSk View Post
Grant Morrison on JLA. With the big seven. That automatically sells itself. It didn't which Superman it was on that title. It was gonna sell. The thing is with that version of Superman. It wouldn't have worked. Thats it. Look at what was selling. Spawn, X-men, All that dark ******** at the time. People in the nineties liked flawed heroes. Thats a fact because that was what selling. Yes you can do serious stories with the silver age Superman. But its more than that that. People's taste in characters and what they wanted in characters changed. They wanted "human" characters. Characters that weren't perfect and were relatable and silver age Superman is not that. Serious stories can be told with the lightest of characters. That doesn't mean that audiences will like them.
Pretty much. That was why Batman skyrocketed in popularity far beyond Superman in the 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, and even the 2010s so far.

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Old 07-16-2011, 04:41 AM   #57
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

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Grant Morrison on JLA. With the big seven. That automatically sells itself. It didn't which Superman it was on that title. It was gonna sell.
Wrong. Grant Morrison wasn't all that well-known back then. It was his run on JLA that made him a "big name", not his name that made JLA sell. It sold because he and Howard Porter(with his "modern-day Kirby" art) told BIG, BOLD, exciting, stories with classic Silver-Age style concepts presented in a modern context.

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The thing is with that version of Superman. It wouldn't have worked. Thats it. Look at what was selling. Spawn, X-men, All that dark ******** at the time. People in the nineties liked flawed heroes. Thats a fact because that was what selling. Yes you can do serious stories with the silver age Superman. But its more than that that. People's taste in characters and what they wanted in characters changed. They wanted "human" characters. Characters that weren't perfect and were relatable and silver age Superman is not that. Serious stories can be told with the lightest of characters. That doesn't mean that audiences will like them.
I see the point you're trying to make but Silver/Bronze Age Superman is no more or less "light" of a character than Byrne's. Now, some of the stories told back then and many of the trappings and minutiae of that "world" were certainly lighter, I'll give you that. But you are confusing those elements with the characterization of Superman himself. Also, alot of DC heroes personalities were pretty much interchangeable whitebread "do-gooders" in the early Silver Age, who would just fly in and solve the dilemma of the month with some clever twist and then pose with their hands on their hips and "wink" at the reader, since it was more about just telling a fun adventure back then. But, in the late Silver and Bronze age, they were more deeply explored as characters, Superman included. He had relatability, and human emotions, and pathos. It just wasn't the same kind of relatability as Marvel characters like struggling to pay his bills or the public hating him, but he DID have compelling problems. And, need I remind you, the pendulum has swung back towards a more Pre-Crisis characterization in the comics for the past few years, in a kind of "best-of-both-worlds" kind of way, where Superman himself is slowly being portrayed more and more like the Superman of old, while many trappings of the post-crisis continuity remain.

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Old 07-16-2011, 05:48 AM   #58
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

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overall, this isn't bad. But, I really dislike the "speedo" trunk look.

IF you are going to use trunks, imo, you need to make them longer ( like wrestler trunks that extend halfway down the thighs ). you need to get away from the "underwear" or "speedo" or "diaper/granny panties" look in order for it to not look too silly.
Trunks like that look "less embarassing" when in the context of a person wearing nothing else such as on a pro wrestler or someone out on the beach, I guess, but I don't think it looks right over tights. It just makes Superman look stodgier than he ever has. Even the original renditions of Superman didn't have trunks extending halfway down his thighs.

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Old 07-16-2011, 07:19 AM   #59
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

Just make the suit he is wearing all on one but the crotch area be red, so he has pants on but there are ni seems so it there for looks like a pattern design rather than pants on top.. If the overall movie design looks good, I won't mind the lack of pants! But it is znyder remember, he won't mess supes up regardless of what d.c are trying to relaunch!!! Look what he did lookwise with watchmen and 300!! There is no way in my mind he's alter a look so iconic as superman!!

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Old 07-16-2011, 07:23 AM   #60
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

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Not mine, found it on DeviantArt

Nice, but too armory, and only needs one \S/ on the front(on his chest) and one on his cape. I like the raised \S/ and the seams. I prefer a lighter blue, but I could live with this. Oh yeah,he also needs black hair, not brown, but that's not part of the suit. Interestingly, the face reminds me of Christopher Reeve.

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Old 07-16-2011, 07:25 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
Top 25 is not top ten. And while a straight Silver Age Superman might not have been a top ten seller in that era, a more Bronze Age Superman would have. Bronze Age Superman is what the modern Superman should be.

Check out the 60's sales on that link. Here's a sample: 1965:

1) Superman DC 823,829
2) Superboy DC 672,681
3) Superman's Girlfriend Lois Lane DC 556,091
4) Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen DC 554,931
5) Action Comics DC 525,254
6) Adventure Comics DC 520,440
7) Archie Archie 467,552
8) World's Finest Comics DC 465,842
9) Batman DC 453,745
10) Walt Disney's Comics & Stories Gold Key 410,209
The Bronze Age and EARLY Byrne-era(not the crap it's evolved into by the late 90s) is my favorite Superman era.

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Old 07-16-2011, 07:33 AM   #62
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

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Yes Superman was more popular in the 60's but after marvel came and changed the game, of course Superman wasn't gonna be popular. He had to become more relatable and more modern and more marvel I guess to stay relevant and stay popular. And throughout the late 80's to middle 90's he was popular. He was never a failure during that time. And he only lost popularity due to bad writing. Thats it.
indeed, the fact that it used to sell well means that someone is currently doing something wrong with the property.

I would also venture that the reason that supes isn't doing so well right now, is the same reason why Trek on TV began to decline... overkill, market oversaturation. In the days when there was Man of Steel, Superman, Action Comics and Adventures of... it was too much. Like Trek, they should have paced themselves, and burnt the property out. The movies have had a good break, with SR being a serious misstep, it should have been a restart.

I like the previously posted costume... but like others have said, you gotta lose the thong shaped trunks. Something a little more square.

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Old 07-16-2011, 08:22 AM   #63
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

guys, check out this insane cgi superman flight test.

I cannot believe this CGI was done by someone without a hollywood budget.

It wipes the floor with anything in Superman returns, and makes a mockery of the view that they couldn't put the s shield on the cape.

Snyder bet look at this cgi if he insists on using a cgi superman for some scenes.

astonishing

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

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Old 07-16-2011, 09:08 AM   #64
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

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guys, check out this insane cgi superman flight test.

I cannot believe this CGI was done by someone without a hollywood budget.

It wipes the floor with anything in Superman returns, and makes a mockery of the view that they couldn't put the s shield on the cape.

Snyder bet look at this cgi if he insists on using a cgi superman for some scenes.

astonishing

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:
Very good. Whoever produced that had some real talent. Must be the same person who did the Superman VS Hulk video recently.

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Old 07-16-2011, 09:21 AM   #65
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

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Top 25 is not top ten. And it's entirely subjective if a more classic Superman would have sold or not, because that's not the version they went with. What they did go with was a middle of the pack seller. The fans they alienated would have made the difference between top 25 and top 10.
It's entirely subjective, unless you think it's true, apparently.

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Old 07-16-2011, 09:42 AM   #66
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

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Very good. Whoever produced that had some real talent. Must be the same person who did the Superman VS Hulk video recently.
Yes, it is the same person who created the Hulk vs Superman videos. He/She does have some major talent, that's for sure!

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Old 07-16-2011, 10:22 AM   #67
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

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Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
Top 25 is not top ten. And while a straight Silver Age Superman might not have been a top ten seller in that era, a more Bronze Age Superman would have. Bronze Age Superman is what the modern Superman should be.

Check out the 60's sales on that link. Here's a sample: 1965:

1) Superman DC 823,829
...
I’m trying to follow the debate - but with difficulty.

You as much as ridicule the silly Lois and Jimmy titles from the 60s. Yet, you cite these as being at the height of Superman comic sales and suggest that sales, therefore, should be the guidepost on how to represent the character. In the first place, this imputes causation to what might just be coincidental correlation. In the second place – even if causation is established – that still leaves you with “silliness.” Are you saying that popularity trumps all, silliness be damned?

Speaking of numbers, one of the best-sellers mentioned (above) sold 800,000+ copies. Impressive. But consider this. In 1987, Superman IV made $15.7M at the domestic box office. Paltry – even for 1987. But translated to ticket sales, that’s 4 million admissions – a number that dwarfs 800,000. If raw figures are to be worshipped, SIV is the superior template for depicting Superman.

Really?

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Old 07-16-2011, 10:29 AM   #68
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

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It wipes the floor with anything in Superman returns, and makes a mockery of the view that they couldn't put the s shield on the cape.

Snyder bet look at this cgi if he insists on using a cgi superman for some scenes.

astonishing
I don’t think so.

SR
’s overall animation was very good. Where they got into trouble was rendering the human (Routh’s) face for certain close and medium shots. That’s the real challenge and it’s one that this amateur (though talented) did not solve.

My advice to Snyder would be to never use cgi faces in close-ups – always use the actor.

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Old 07-16-2011, 10:34 AM   #69
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

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Originally Posted by BrlntDsgse View Post
Wrong. Grant Morrison wasn't all that well-known back then. It was his run on JLA that made him a "big name", not his name that made JLA sell. It sold because he and Howard Porter(with his "modern-day Kirby" art) told BIG, BOLD, exciting, stories with classic Silver-Age style concepts presented in a modern context.
I'll give you that but it didn't sell huge at first. It didn't crack the top 10 until isssue 9 of their run.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BrlntDsgse View Post
I see the point you're trying to make but Silver/Bronze Age Superman is no more or less "light" of a character than Byrne's. Now, some of the stories told back then and many of the trappings and minutiae of that "world" were certainly lighter, I'll give you that. But you are confusing those elements with the characterization of Superman himself. Also, alot of DC heroes personalities were pretty much interchangeable whitebread "do-gooders" in the early Silver Age, who would just fly in and solve the dilemma of the month with some clever twist and then pose with their hands on their hips and "wink" at the reader, since it was more about just telling a fun adventure back then. But, in the late Silver and Bronze age, they were more deeply explored as characters, Superman included. He had relatability, and human emotions, and pathos. It just wasn't the same kind of relatability as Marvel characters like struggling to pay his bills or the public hating him, but he DID have compelling problems. And, need I remind you, the pendulum has swung back towards a more Pre-Crisis characterization in the comics for the past few years, in a kind of "best-of-both-worlds" kind of way, where Superman himself is slowly being portrayed more and more like the Superman of old, while many trappings of the post-crisis continuity remain.
A guy who's human side is just a disguise wouldn't have work at that time. He was too powerful and people didn't read hugely powerful characters at that time. He didn't have issues like me or you. Think of it this way. The reason Batman became way more popular than Superman in the nineties is that Batman was a more human character and thats what audiences wanted. Silver age Superman wasn't that. Man of Steel was the best to happen to the character. He grounded him and made a much more relatable character(until bad writers screwed Superman up in 97 but he recovered in 2001)

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Old 07-16-2011, 10:41 AM   #70
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

for close ups do the flying with cavill in the blue suit and use a CGI cape

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Old 07-16-2011, 11:56 AM   #71
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

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I don’t think so.

SR
’s overall animation was very good. Where they got into trouble was rendering the human (Routh’s) face for certain close and medium shots. That’s the real challenge and it’s one that this amateur (though talented) did not solve.

My advice to Snyder would be to never use cgi faces in close-ups – always use the actor.
In this instance I believe he was speaking more about Singers comments about how the CG crew was having difficulty putting the S on the back of the cape....which is a complete BS excuse which anyone who works with CG can tell you thanks to the current generation clothsimulation software.

Also, the years since Superman Returns have been extremely fruitful in developing CGI facial animation. Provided enough reference of the actor can be captured (which will not be a problem on a production like this), and provided they are playing it on a face that is a close approximation of their current one (as it will be in this case), we have effectively conquered the uncanny valley at this point. So It shouldn't be a problem anymore.

example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYSXa...eature=related

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Old 07-16-2011, 01:57 PM   #72
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You hear that sound? Thats my point going over your head. The characters Kirby and Lee didn't do great at first. New and untested properties in comics in those days weren't going to touch Archie at first, of course. But it set the ground for the comics we saw in the 70's,80's,90's,00's.

When Lee and Kirby's characters started to become popular they like what they saw. It was new and fresh and groundbreaking. A teen Superhero who's not a sidekick. No way could it be done. A team of adventures each with a different personality and different powers. No way. A group of top superhero's who weren't best buddies and had fights. No way. You get my picture. Lee and Kirby created a new era heroes weren't perfect and had problems just like any other person. Their characters were relatable and after a while people ate that **** up. If I ran a business and I see these characters are suddenly outselling my characters, im going to see what their doing with their characters and try to put it into my characters. Thats just common sense.

Yes Superman was more popular in the 60's but after marvel came and changed the game, of course Superman wasn't gonna be popular. He had to become more relatable and more modern and more marvel I guess to stay relevant and stay popular. And throughout the late 80's to middle 90's he was popular. He was never a failure during that time. And he only lost popularity due to bad writing. Thats it.
There is no possible way YOU could ever say anything that is over MY head when it comes to comics, sorry. All you've done is repeat old 80's and 90's Wizard Magazine bullet points without a single original thought. To put it most directly, you don't know what you're talking about and no interest in learning. There's no reason for us to discuss these matters further.

Quote:
I can see clearly after doing research and using common ****ing sense that you just miss the comics of your generation and thats cool. But can we still stop that BS argument that he's a failure that always use. Because he's not. Superman has been in the top 20 when they put a good writer,good artist, and they tell a good story. They just don't do that a lot.

I miss good comics and Superman being himself, period.

Also it'll sell because it has Grant Morrison on it. So Yeah.
No, it is an artistic preference. All-Star Superman, Birthright, etc, are modern comics written by people who understand Superman, and I think they are excellent. It also proves that a classic Superman works in a modern setting, and works much better than Byrne's Marvelized character who lost what made him unique.

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I’m trying to follow the debate - but with difficulty.

You as much as ridicule the silly Lois and Jimmy titles from the 60s. Yet, you cite these as being at the height of Superman comic sales and suggest that sales, therefore, should be the guidepost on how to represent the character. In the first place, this imputes causation to what might just be coincidental correlation. In the second place – even if causation is established – that still leaves you with “silliness.” Are you saying that popularity trumps all, silliness be damned?

Speaking of numbers, one of the best-sellers mentioned (above) sold 800,000+ copies. Impressive. But consider this. In 1987, Superman IV made $15.7M at the domestic box office. Paltry – even for 1987. But translated to ticket sales, that’s 4 million admissions – a number that dwarfs 800,000. If raw figures are to be worshipped, SIV is the superior template for depicting Superman.

Really?
I'm no fan of the silly stuff of the Silver Age but I do support the core principles of Superman which were in effect from his creation, through the Silver Age and onto the Bronze Age. The Silver Age was the height of his popularity but Superman was himself from 1938-1986. The Marvelized Superman from 86-2002 or so is the version I dislike. The last 10 years have been a flux version with elements of everything but they never stuck with one approach long enough. This new origin will be the 5th in the last 10 years. Even though I disliked Iron Age Superman, at least he had stability.

As for comparing sales of movie tickets to comic book sales, that's apples and oranges and best done with the original Superman movie anyway-and a lot of people WOULD argue that it is the template for depicting Superman, although I would disagree with them.

And actually Superman himself was fine in Superman IV, it was the rest of the movie and the low budget that hurt it.

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I'll give you that but it didn't sell huge at first. It didn't crack the top 10 until isssue 9 of their run.


A guy who's human side is just a disguise wouldn't have work at that time. He was too powerful and people didn't read hugely powerful characters at that time. He didn't have issues like me or you. Think of it this way. The reason Batman became way more popular than Superman in the nineties is that Batman was a more human character and thats what audiences wanted. Silver age Superman wasn't that. Man of Steel was the best to happen to the character. He grounded him and made a much more relatable character(until bad writers screwed Superman up in 97 but he recovered in 2001)
Batman became more popular because he stayed true to his origins as a grim detective with a crusade against crime.

As I said before, I'm done here. We're just going around in circles with you repeating what DC and books like Wizard proclaimed for years as the truth about Pre-Crisis Superman, and nothing I try to teach about the history of Superman is doing any good.

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Old 07-16-2011, 02:09 PM   #73
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

I read Birthright and didn't like it very much. And I felt the artwork was rather inappropriately grotesque at times, too.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 07-16-2011, 02:24 PM   #74
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Cool Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

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There is no possible way YOU could ever say anything that is over MY head when it comes to comics, sorry. All you've done is repeat old 80's and 90's Wizard Magazine bullet points without a single original thought. To put it most directly, you don't know what you're talking about and no interest in learning. There's no reason for us to discuss these matters further.



No, it is an artistic preference. All-Star Superman, Birthright, etc, are modern comics written by people who understand Superman, and I think they are excellent. It also proves that a classic Superman works in a modern setting, and works much better than Byrne's Marvelized character who lost what made him unique.



I'm no fan of the silly stuff of the Silver Age but I do support the core principles of Superman which were in effect from his creation, through the Silver Age and onto the Bronze Age. The Silver Age was the height of his popularity but Superman was himself from 1938-1986. The Marvelized Superman from 86-2002 or so is the version I dislike. The last 10 years have been a flux version with elements of everything but they never stuck with one approach long enough. This new origin will be the 5th in the last 10 years. Even though I disliked Iron Age Superman, at least he had stability.

As for comparing sales of movie tickets to comic book sales, that's apples and oranges and best done with the original Superman movie anyway-and a lot of people WOULD argue that it is the template for depicting Superman, although I would disagree with them.

And actually Superman himself was fine in Superman IV, it was the rest of the movie and the low budget that hurt it.



Batman became more popular because he stayed true to his origins as a grim detective with a crusade against crime.

As I said before, I'm done here. We're just going around in circles with you repeating what DC and books like Wizard proclaimed for years as the truth about Pre-Crisis Superman, and nothing I try to teach about the history of Superman is doing any good.

You make good points and I agree with a lot of what you say.

I also think though that it is more than the Marvelizing that has hurt the character. So many factos go into this. One maybe being burnout in that the character has been around so long in so many books that there really aren't any more stories to tell.

The past decade has seen some of the worst stunts by DC trying to make Supes relevant. Then there was that banishing him from his books for a while which I never got.

Whatever the reasons the fact remains Superman is not a flagship/popular character anymore. And of course every fan has his idea of how Superman can be made popular again.

The Superman Homepage did a podcast on this recently saying basically the stories and art are not great. If they were great, Superman would be a top seller again. Course that is easier said than done.

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Old 07-16-2011, 03:13 PM   #75
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Default Re: The Official Costume Thread - Part 9

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Nice, but too armory, and only needs one \S/ on the front(on his chest) and one on his cape. I like the raised \S/ and the seams. I prefer a lighter blue, but I could live with this. Oh yeah,he also needs black hair, not brown, but that's not part of the suit. Interestingly, the face reminds me of Christopher Reeve.
Apart from the belt/waistline treatment, I quite like this. It is close enough to what I consider classic is, but at the same time puts a fresh spin on that look.

The seams psuedo armour doesn't bother me, because at least to my eyes, it doesn't look like actual armour. It actually might be one of the best proposals I ever seen. I imagine rendered in real (movie) life, it could look quite spectacular.

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