The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

[Marx]

Originally Posted by Dark Knight90!

So I was reading Jett's review of this film on BOF and I just couldn't get over it...


So its OK for Nolan to do whatever he wants with the mythology, including removing a vital element of The Joker's character (perma-white)... and Jett hails him as a damn genius.

Why is it OK to have a Christopher Nolan Batman film that is truly his... but it wasn't OK to have a Tim Burton Batman film?

I mean, fine... If he doesn't like it, he doesn't like but why does he have to act like Burton deliberately set out to hurt him.

To me, it all comes back to bandwagoning and is another perfect example of what is wrong with Nolan batfans. I'm not trying to suggest, in any way, that ALL Nolan batfans are mindless drones that accept whatever changes Christopher Nolan makes to the Batman universe but I've grown very tired of these types feeling a constant need to bash anything and everything that came before Nolan's batman movies. Are Christopher Nolan's batman movies good? Yes, but to knock one director for taking liberties with characters while praising another director for taking liberties is incredibly hypocritical.

[Kevin Roegele]

Originally Posted by Dark Knight90!

So I was reading Jett's review of this film on BOF and I just couldn't get over it...


So its OK for Nolan to do whatever he wants with the mythology, including removing a vital element of The Joker's character (perma-white)... and Jett hails him as a damn genius.

Why is it OK to have a Christopher Nolan Batman film that is truly his... but it wasn't OK to have a Tim Burton Batman film?

I mean, fine... If he doesn't like it, he doesn't like but why does he have to act like Burton deliberately set out to hurt him.

He is the worst type of fan. When Jett says things like, "Never does this film offer anything a Batman fan can feel good or proud about," it shows how distorted his view is. He thinks the entire series exists to confirm his opinion of the character, and applaud him for being a Batman fan.

This kind of fandom really does border on fanaticism. Who the hell feels pride about a fictional character? Not someone with a proper, fulfilling social life, I imagine.

[AnneFan]

Originally Posted by Marx

To me, it all comes back to bandwagoning and is another perfect example of what is wrong with Nolan batfans. I'm not trying to suggest, in any way, that ALL Nolan batfans are mindless drones that accept whatever changes Christopher Nolan makes to the Batman universe but I've grown very tired of these types feeling a constant need to bash anything and everything that came before Nolan's batman movies. Are Christopher Nolan's batman movies good? Yes, but to knock one director for taking liberties with characters while praising another director for taking liberties is incredibly hypocritical.

Exactly how I feel about it.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Jett is a hack plain and simple, I cant stand the guy and ill never frequent his website ever again.

[SHADOWBAT69]

Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe

Jett is a hack plain and simple, I cant stand the guy and ill never frequent his website ever again.

I tried having a civil conversation with him about his review of Returns afew years back. Guy is just an a$$clown, plain and simple. His final comments to me was something along the lines of "look, guy, I dont like the movie and no one else shoud either". Then he banned me.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Wow Shadowbat, that just shows his true disregard for true batman fans, im glad ill neve support his website again.

[Ponyboy]

What website is this?

[Godzilla2014]

Originally Posted by Ponyboy

What website is this?

Batman On Film.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

A batman based website that is over opinionated and looks like it was made in the late 90's, oh wait it was.

[AnneFan]

Originally Posted by SHADOWBAT69

I tried having a civil conversation with him about his review of Returns afew years back. Guy is just an a$$clown, plain and simple. His final comments to me was something along the lines of "look, guy, I dont like the movie and no one else shoud either". Then he banned me.

Disgraceful. It shouldn't be about fighting corners. Regardless of what he says, Jett is pretty much "stop liking what I don't like". Some of the points he makes clearly show he hasn't done his research on the Burton films - outside of watching them- and that is a sign of ignorance. He really should read GothamAlley's blog. But even then he'd be in denial.

[Cain]

Back in the late 90's when he started that site I remember some of the regular posters there also posted at the batsite I posted at. Including the guy who ran the site I posted at (Fabio2). I could never really get into BOF though. Jett was pretty annoying to read even then. So I actually used to frequent a site that BOF linked to that was a bit more objective at the time. Anyway there was this dude named Jelloboy and he is pretty much the blueprint of your typical internet batfan today. But at least he was honest and true about his ****.

These were the days of "Batman 5" before we all started the whole Bale for Year One campaign and all that nonsense on the bat fan sites in those days. So most people still loved the Burton movies for the most part back then. Not him though he hated the **** out of the Burton movies and always cracked about Keaton's "mini perm" I'll never forget this cause it was so extreme at the time (public internet was like 2 yrs old) but now it's just a sickening cliche.

See at least that was a guy expressing his real thoughts. Now everything seems parroted from one person to the next. I mean not for nothing but ever since alot of the BOF people (mainly the EIC ironically) started really blowing the Nolan movies and crapping all over the Burton and Schumacher ones like they didn't even exist all of a sudden; that kinda spread like wildfire across the net. Especially since EVERYBODY went to his site after BB's success especially for TDK news and he got lots of traffic. He really took advantage to push his agenda I guess. Cause from there came the comparisons and my dick is bigger than yours nonsense of "Burtonites and Nolanites". WTF is this? Shakespeare now?

I mean it's no coincidence that when I see people panning the older Batman movies when they're brought up from RT to IMDb Jett's site is often mentioned in those threads. It's kinda sad that the type of poison associated with fueling this dumb division of a once united fanbase comes from a site that is supposed to CELEBRATE BATMAN ON FILM. Not NOLAN'S BATMAN ON FILM. Like it's some sin to like ALL Batman movies like some of us actually do and there can be only one Highlander style. Just cause ONE fan took the initiative of creating a site years ago and says so. Please yo.

[GothamAlleys]

Originally Posted by Cain

It's kinda sad that the type of poison associated with fueling this dumb division of a once united fanbase comes from a site that is supposed to CELEBRATE BATMAN ON FILM. Not NOLAN'S BATMAN ON FILM. Like it's some sin to like ALL Batman movies like some of us actually do and there can be only one Highlander style. Just cause ONE fan took the initiative of creating a site years ago and says so. Please yo.

Well said. Sad but true

[Mister Meddle]

BOF is a terrible Batman website. Everything about the site whether it's Jett's one sided columns, his above-and-beyond love for the Nolan films. And even the website it's self. You literally have to go through two splash pages (full of pop ups and ads) in order to reach the main index page. Jett's way to make a profit, not that his website is worth a dime.

[Ponyboy]

Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe

A batman based website that is over opinionated and looks like it was made in the late 90's, oh wait it was.

Yikes... that's one of the hardest to navigate sites I've ever seen. Then I click on the forum and it sends me to Yuku?

[JohnnyGobbs]

Originally Posted by Ponyboy

Yikes... that's one of the hardest to navigate sites I've ever seen. Then I click on the forum and it sends me to Yuku?

Another example of the ridiculous barriers Jett places on people who simply want to read the posts in BOF's forum, not even necessarily contribute (for fear of expressing a mildly pro-Burton position and being banned for life). It's no exaggeration to state that the guy runs his site like Kim Jong-il ran North Korea.

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

In 2007 I tried to join the message board, having to do emails and all that crap... but he rejected me. My user-name was ''Burton-Bat'' so maybe he panicked.

Thank god I stayed away from that site... I became sick of hearing about ''My Batman'' and ''My buddy Nolan''.

I do love that picture of him and Nolan though... Nolan's expression is hilarious. It screams ''Emma, i'm scared... make sure a bodyguard is standing ready''.

[JohnnyGobbs]

Originally Posted by Dark Knight90!

I do love that picture of him and Nolan though... Nolan's expression is hilarious. It screams ''Emma, i'm scared... make sure a bodyguard is standing ready''.

Indeed. One can't and shouldn't blame Nolan for the nature of some of his fans.

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

[Brain Damage]

The Hello There into Hell Here is one of my favorite moments in the film.
That whole scene is a highlight actually.

[Godzilla2014]

Originally Posted by Dark Knight90!

Awesome pictures!

[El Payaso]

I found this review in this cool site about weird movies:

http://366weirdmovies.com/batman-ret...hero-burlesque


It contains some criticism to nolan movies that is unnecessary and I personally disagree with it, but it is quite good.

The two first paragraphs are gold.

BATMAN RETURNS ( 1992): A SUPERHERO BURLESQUE

In 1992 some damn silly, so-called Christian organization threw a bullying hissy fit at McDonalds for its Happy Meal deal tie-in with Tim Burton‘s Batman Returns. McDonalds, true to form, prematurely withdrew its merchandising. Rumor has it that McDonalds issued a stern warning to Warner Brothers not to tap Burton for the next Batman film. For whatever reason, Warner Brothers caved into the golden arch and, consequently, put its franchise into a decade long grave with the unwise hiring of director Joel Schumacher.

Only the fundamentalist mindset can associate Big Macs with a certain brand of morality. Looking at Batman Returns (1992), one wonders what the Christian organization was *****ing about. The Bible is all throughout the film and, actually the good book itself has far more sex and violence than Batman, Tim Burton, Warner Brothers and McDonalds combined.

Regardless, Batman Returns remains the greatest cinematic comic book movie to date and one of Tim Burton’s most uniquely accomplished films. Admittedly, I am not a fan of comic book movies, even if I did read comics some when I was kid, but then most kids I knew did. I was in the minority in preferring DC to Marvel, and I guess I am sort of looking forward to the new Green Lantern movie, mainly because the Green Lantern/Green Arrow comic was a favorite when I was a wee lad in the 1960s and 1970s. That was a comic that was delightfully of its time, a bit like Star Trek in espousing an ultra-liberal message with all the subtlety of a pair of brass knuckles. Even though Green Lantern himself was a bit too righteous and bland, I liked that he was obsessed with the color green and was rendered impotent by the color yellow. There was something surreal in that, and I find the insistence of realism in comics to be a huge oxymoron. Perhaps that’s why the dark surrealism of Batman Returns did not bother me like it did mainstream audiences, comic book geeks, and militant pseudo-Christian organizations.
Still from Batman Returns (1992)
Even though I will acknowledge that Christopher Nolan‘s Dark Knight (2008) was well crafted, it would not have worked without Ledger’s performance holding it together. Christian Bale’s Bruce Wayne, however, pales compared to Michael Keaton’s much more intense, internalized, subtle and complex Wayne. Finally, Nolan’s film feels like it has one subplot too many. Comparatively, Tim Burton’s Batman Returns is a genuine freak show, which is as it should be. This is the Dark Knight filtered through a young Tim Burton still channeling the influence of Tod Browning. It is an inimitable, energetically enthusiastic film which revels in its weirdness with a style and texture all its own.

The deformed Penguin is born to rich parents (Paul Reubens and Diane Salinger, both of 1985′s Pee Wee’s Big Adventure) who dispose of him in the sewer like Moses being dumped in the Nile (choreographed to composer Danny Elfman’s wordless choral music). Penguins and circus performers rescue their potential deliverer, and the saga begins 33 years later (Christ allegory there). Characteristically, Burton propels us into a yuletide world, only this is a season as envisioned by the Ghost of Christmas Yet To Come in the expressionist land of silent film forefathers. Fritz Lang, Guy Maddin and Jack Skellington know this Gotham.

Christopher Walken emerges as the beautifully ludicrous-wigged energy tycoon Max Schreck (named after the actor who played Count Orlock—AKA Dracula—in F.W. Murnau’s Nosferatu). Schreck lives in his Metropolis-inspired ivory tower and emerges to give a holiday speech to the crowd below. The infamous Circus Gang interrupts the proceedings via a giant Christmas present which literally rolls into the town square, shooting forth clowns on motorcycles, strongmen, fire eating jesters, and a machine gun wielding monkey.

Commissioner Gordon (Pat Hingle) turns on the Bat Signal not a moment too soon, because Bruce Wayne (Michael Keaton) is alone in his mansion, getting ready to turn on “Blue Christmas.” Batman saves Schreck’s secretary, Selena Kyle (Michelle Pfeifer), from a killer clown with a tazer, but Schreck is nowhere to be found. That’s because he has unwittingly stumbled upon the underground sewer abode of the legendary Penguin Man (Danny DeVito). The Penguin’s lair looks like a cross between the Phantom of the Opera’s cavern and Vincent Price‘s Theater of Blood (1973).

This is not Burgess Meredith’s Penguin (taking nothing from Meredith). Devito’s Penguin is, by turns, empathetic, repulsive and genuinely threatening. With Schreck’s help (via blackmail) Penguin intends to ascend to the world above, locate his parents (already dead, probably by the Penguin’s hands) and take over Gotham as the new mayor. He also has a secret plan of revenge against the whole of Gotham by killing every first born male child (shades of Ramses and King Herod). Meanwhile, Schreck “kills” Selena by pushing her out a window after she stumbles upon some hidden files. However, Selena is revived by flesh-eating kitty cats. She returns to her Barbie doll apartment, turns “Hello There” into “Hell Here”, fashions a black leather cat suit on an old sewing machine, and Catwoman is born.

Pfeifer, who can often be stoic, is amazing here. It is the best performance of her career and she is full of surprises. Like Penguin, she arouses empathy and she arouses Batman/Bruce Wayne as well. Not only is Wayne sexually attracted to her, but he senses a truly kindred spirit. In the first Batman (1989) Wayne’s romantic relationship seemed a mismatch but here Wayne’s falling in love with Selena/Catwoman is natural and understandable. You really want them to make it, although you know it is, as Catwoman predicts, “not a fairy tale to be.”

Even the loathsome Schreck has a degree of empathy in his love for his son, which leaves us the character of Batman. Here, Keaton’s Wayne is not saddled with the unfolding of his origin story, as he was in the previous film. Oddly, many critics of the first film commented that Keaton’s performance paled next to the extroverted Jack Nicholson. Seen today, Nicholson’s performance seems obvious while Keaton’s has grown considerably in stature. Keaton’s Batman is the eye of the hurricane. In Returns, Wayne’s inner angst is already firmly established. Here, he suffers more from restlessness, lack of direction, his inability to connect, boredom, intense loneliness, and seasonal blues, which makes his unease with the world much more vivid. In the guise of Batman, Wayne is not above igniting one opponent and blowing up another (in fact he clearly enjoys it), all while lecturing Selena for wanting to kill Schreck. Keaton does not resort to a tried and true lazy playboy act. It is very apparent to all that Bruce Wayne is as disturbed as Batman. Batman/Bruce Wayne fully fits in this quartet of freaks.

When his collaboration with Schreck predictably sours, Penguin, with the help of rocket launching penguins and a henchman who must have taken kidnapping lessons from Robert Helpmann’s Child Catcher in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang (1968), ignites his plan to mass murder the children.

The scene in which Selena and Wayne find out the truth about one another is well done and probably is the only time this plot element has worked in any comic book film (the uncovering of the ‘secret identity’ did not work at all in the first Batman film, in Superman, or in the Spider-Man film). The boat ride in the sewer recalls Phantom of the Opera (1925), and the unmasking of Batman in front of Selena echoes Lon Chaney and Mary Philbin. Despite Penguin’s terrible plans, his fate is a sad one.

Batman Returns erupts in a dizzying apocalypse straight from the theater of the absurd. This is a superhero burlesque as only Tim Burton, at this stage in his career, could have delivered. At the center of this burlesque are freaks we care about; only they are not really freaks, and the film ends with a bit of sad reflection and an urge to turn on “Blue Christmas.”

Posted in Alfred Eaker's Fringe Cinema.

Tagged with 1992, Batman, Christmas, Hollywood, Superhero, Tim Burton.

7 comments

By Alfred Eaker – September 2, 2010

[CConn]

Good review.

Although, to be honest, as good as it is, I felt as thought Batman Returns suffered from having one or two plotlines too many itself.

[Two-Face]

Nice review but Penguin showing Fred's dead hand at Max is bit extreme I didn't like it and still don't. Oh It's Selina not Selena.....

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by Two-Face

Nice review but Penguin showing Fred's dead hand at Max is bit extreme I didn't like it and still don't. Oh It's Selina not Selena.....

Really? I found it to be a perfect example of dark dark humour. And it was also a way to tell Schreck: You can't hide from the consequences of your actions, even if you chop someone up to pieces, his body parts are going to crawl after you.

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by El Payaso

Really? I found it to be a perfect example of dark dark humour. And it was also a way to tell Schreck: You can't hide from the consequences of your actions, even if you chop someone up to pieces, his body parts are going to crawl after you.

Plus the part when he shakes Schreck's hand with it is just gold