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Old 08-01-2011, 02:16 PM   #51
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Default Re: Who believes these movies are a metaphor on sexual orientions?

The thing is, I don't care what they have to say even if they did say it.

Matthew Vaughn has used the term "reboot" in regards to the movie. It is clearly not a reboot, when it connects itself to the rest of the series with the very first sequence, recreating events from the first movie, and establishing it's events within the same timeframe and continuity of the original films.

They can call Xavier and Magneto gay for each other til they are blue in the face, but it's not there in the least bit.

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Old 08-01-2011, 02:20 PM   #52
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Default Re: Who believes these movies are a metaphor on sexual orientions?

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The X-Men have ALWAYS been metaphors for the downtrodden, marginalized, outcast. All those who are "different". Thats a large part of their appeal.

There are gay, racial, cultural, etc overtones in many different X-Men stories. I always thought this was well known. Considering a guy with major involvement in the franchise is gay, it wouldn't surprise me at all if its a little personalized and slanted toward that particular bent.
This, and I would also add that it's about the dangers of crazy mass mentality. I always found fascinating growing up that mutants had the ability to destroy buildings with their thoughts, but they still were second class citizens compared to an average guy who could barely scratch them, strenght and power aren't always the same thing, it's just another great layer of the X-Men mythos.

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Old 08-01-2011, 02:38 PM   #53
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Default Re: Who believes these movies are a metaphor on sexual orientions?

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The thing is, I don't care what they have to say even if they did say it.

Matthew Vaughn has used the term "reboot" in regards to the movie. It is clearly not a reboot, when it connects itself to the rest of the series with the very first sequence, recreating events from the first movie, and establishing it's events within the same timeframe and continuity of the original films.

They can call Xavier and Magneto gay for each other til they are blue in the face, but it's not there in the least bit.
He has used the term reboot AND prequel on different occasions, and for good reason, it's both. It has the elements to be either one, though ultimately it probably will be a prequel. He wanted to make a movie his way without worrying TOO heavily about the connection to the other films. That's why the connections are slight-- Wolverine, Mystique cameos, and the near shot-for-shot Erik intro. But he also ignored film continuity in Xavier walking, the timeline he met Erik, and his relationship to Mystique. I don't think it's entirely legit to call this flick a reboot but it's definitely his own interpretation without much regard to the pre-existing movies.

BUT what can't be argued is the director's intention. Take a look at Harry Potter. After the books came out JK Rowling informed the world that Dumbledore was gay. I *GUESS* if you really squinted and had a slashy mind to begin with you could find examples of it in the books. I never did. But just because *I* never saw evidence that he's gay doesn't mean he's not. In all 8 movies there isn't a shred of evidence that he is. However, trying to argue that he's straight is ridiculous. Since Rowling has come forward and said so, it must be true.

Similarly with the people behind this movie. Vaughn has not referred to E&C as lovers or as gay because they're not. He and Zack Stentz have both referred to the movie as being something of a "romantic tragedy". James McAvoy and Michael Fassbender were aware of the subtext throughout filming and were in fact chosen because their chemistry was so intense that they were able to put in the subtext element quite easily. (This was touched upon at Stentz's panel).

We never see Dumbledore lust after a man in the movie, yet he's still gay. We never see Erik and Charles making out or professing their feelings yet they feel very much there beneath the surface. The great thing about films is reading between the lines and getting what isn't spoonfed to you.

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Old 08-01-2011, 02:42 PM   #54
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Default Re: Who believes these movies are a metaphor on sexual orientions?

^ I don't want to insinuate anything about Charles and Erik with this, but comparing them to Dumbledore seems a bit extreme due to the fact that Dumbledore is like a gazillion years old, which is like a bazillion years past his sexual prime, so just wanted to comment that that seemed a bit unfair.

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Old 08-01-2011, 05:22 PM   #55
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Default Re: Who believes these movies are a metaphor on sexual orientions?

Not only that, but Dumbledore's sexual orientation has nothing to do with the narrative of Harry Potter in one way or another.

However, changing the relationship between Erik and Charles to an unspoken gay relationship totally changes the entire dynamic of their relationship, and I feel cheapens it.

They go from 2 men working together for a goal that is bigger than either of them, to secret butt buddies who hang around each other because they want the wang.

Not only that, but it's not in the source material, when Xavier has romantic relationships with at least Moira and Lilandra, and Erik has children through past romantic relationships and even has one with Rogue when he is Joseph. While I don't believe that Mystique and Erik kissing was a romantic thing as well, that doesn't mean it's because he wants to kiss Charles. A romance doesn't always have to be a part of a narrative, and that's what this whole "secret gay feelings" thing comes off as... since they weren't boinking women it must have been because they wanted to boink each other! (and... Charles was boinking other women, considering his ventures with the female gender was well documented... the 2 colored eye-possibly William Stryker's wife but maybe not, was shown at Charles' graduation party, presumably as his date. And we all know about the actual romance between Moira and Charles that was shot, but cut. Probably because a story doesn't always have to have a romantic interest.

Do Erik and Charles have deep feelings for each other? Yes. Are they romantic / homosexual feelings? No. They are deep feelings of respect and admiration. The same type of deep feelings of respect and admiration that would form between any 2 people (or group of people) who spend their life working together for a goal to help the world. The same deep feelings of respect and admiration that Frodo and Sam had for each other, or Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn. I would argue the evidence of underlying homosexual undertones is much stronger in Lord of the Rings with the way Frodo and Sam are always hugging on each other, and touching each other, or looking at each other when Frodo is lying in the bed at the end of Return of the King (as much as I don't agree with the relationship having homosexual undertones, the shot in Fellowship of the Rings of Sam rubbing Frodo's chest when the Mithril vest is revealed is much more homoerotic than anything in X-Men: First Class).

That's what the "deeper" feelings are between the 2, deep feelings of respect and admiration. The 2 men believe in each other, and what they want to accomplish. Having to split apart is hurtful to both of these men, because they both thought they would be working side by side for a greater good, but instead, they will be working against each other. Charles believes in co-existence between mutants and humans, and Erik wants to create a war between the 2. Erik is afraid to see his people, once again, oppressed, persecuted, and eventually killed off in genocide, and thinks that Charles' dream of co-existence is a naive point of view, and believes that Charles' course of action will lead to that genocide. The 2 men with an unbreakable level of respect and admiration are now enemies, and neither of them want it because they both know that mutants fighting amongst each other is not going to advance their cause. Their cause is so much bigger than either of them and their connection that is formed in working for that cause is bound for them to have a high level of respect and admiration for each other, an unbreakable bond.

That doesn't equate to underlying homosexual feelings. It couldn't be further from homoeroticism.

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Old 08-01-2011, 05:33 PM   #56
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Default Re: Who believes these movies are a metaphor on sexual orientions?

Come on! Even Mc Avoy said their story was a love story, i think of Charles Xavier and Erik as homo, depp inside they are and feel like that for each other but i sincerelly don't want to see more deep inside their relationship, its just somethin we all know is true but we don't want to see completelly happening

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Old 08-01-2011, 09:59 PM   #57
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Default Re: Who believes these movies are a metaphor on sexual orientions?

If Charles is gay, why was he hitting on Amy and Moira in the pub? I would think a gay man wouldn't be interested.

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Old 08-01-2011, 11:52 PM   #58
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Default Re: Who believes these movies are a metaphor on sexual orientions?

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Not only that, but Dumbledore's sexual orientation has nothing to do with the narrative of Harry Potter in one way or another.

However, changing the relationship between Erik and Charles to an unspoken gay relationship totally changes the entire dynamic of their relationship, and I feel cheapens it.

They go from 2 men working together for a goal that is bigger than either of them, to secret butt buddies who hang around each other because they want the wang.
This has been bugging me for some time. Your use of childish words to describe homosexuals and degrade them to THIS sort of ignorant BS is upsetting. This isn't the first time you've done this, your comments about people's perception of the Washington Monument also showed your immature side when it comes to phallic symbolism or anything that isn't hetero enough for you. I was going to counter some of your points but after reading this I'm done with you. Your issues with the pairing seem to lie in something far beyond just two characters from a comic book.

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Old 08-02-2011, 12:08 AM   #59
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Default Re: Who believes these movies are a metaphor on sexual orientions?

I don't want Charles and Erik to be lovers because that's not remotely based in the source material.

I never got that impression of them in the movie though.

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Old 08-02-2011, 01:22 AM   #60
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Default Re: Who believes these movies are a metaphor on sexual orientions?

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I don't want Charles and Erik to be lovers because that's not remotely based in the source material.

I never got that impression of them in the movie though.
This.

And serenity, you can take my words how you want, but I'd be using the same type of terminology if we were trying to argue that there was a romantic relationship between Charles and Raven. I'm secure in my sexuality and don't have issues with other people's sexuality. I've kissed other dudes before, so you can make your assumptions about me, but they are false.

My issue with the Washington Monument is that it does come off as incredibly immature when people are talking about "that building that looks like a penis is between 2 guys, they must be gay!" and I feel that's what this whole "Erik and Charles are gay for each other" talk is coming from. 2 guys that aren't romantically involved with the female leads (even tho Charles was, but it was cut, and has other examples of being attracted to women) so they must be romantically involved with each other, because there's a shot of a building that looks like a penis (never mind the rest of the symbolism behind that shot... it's obviously symbolic of a penis and thus a homosexual relationship between the 2 men) and they cry for each other when one of the guys loses the use of his legs and at the same time, a strong friendship is essentially falling apart.

You find my language offensive? I find it kind of offensive that the notion of 2 men being emotional and having a strong connection together must automatically be homosexual. I find it kind of offensive that the Washington Monument, which is used as a symbol of freedom and justice - you know, some of the themes that the movie is trying to portray - is relegated to a sexual homo erotic symbol to pit 2 men in a relationship that they shouldn't be in, when there's no evidence of said relationship between those 2 men. And that has nothing to do with some kind of homophobia on my part. But you can continue to think that if you want.

It has everything to do with bastardizing a relationship between 2 characters that I hold very personally to me for really no reason at all, other than to stir the pot a little bit and get some shock value? I don't know, I don't even know what the intention of such a relationship would be, because there's no source material precedent for it, it cheapens the relationship that the 2 men do have together, and it adds absolutely nothing to the story that is trying to be told in the movie. It's a move that's being done just for the sake of it for a little bit of shock value. It might not be blatant, in your face shock value like Howard Stern or Eminem, but it's shock value none the less.

And if somewhere along the line it was Matthew Vaughn's intent to have that subtext, it's just yet another reason on my long list of reasons why I don't want Matthew Vaughn anywhere near the X-Men franchise.

If it makes you feel any better, I was this adamantly against the proposed sexual relationship between Storm and Logan in X-Men: The Last Stand as well, and for the same reasons, because there's no purpose for it, it adds nothing to the story, and is being done for no other reason than shock value and Hollywood sex appeal of putting 2 attractive leads together sexually. Luckily that horribly idea, also from the head of Matthew Vaughn, was scrapped the moment he left the project and never saw the light of day.

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Old 08-02-2011, 08:36 AM   #61
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Default Re: Who believes these movies are a metaphor on sexual orientions?

I would argue that it's not just because it isn't part of the source material, cause someone in future X-Men comics could make an alternate universe where the two of them are lovers, and that story could actually work if done propperly, but the thing is that it doesn't really add to the "X-Men" storylines having them as gay characters, the default storyline of Charles and Erik is two people that should be together because they want the same thing, they just have really different approaches for it, the fact that they find themselves attracted to each other really wouldn't add much, plus sometimes, as is the case, friendships can be incredibly more intricate and intimate than other types of relationships.

And for Nell, the Storm-Wolverine relationship may have been scrapped, but I think it was badly scrapped, there were lots of traces of that in the script and the movie itself, for example the scene where Storm is trying to stop Logan from going to see Jean was barely seconds away from turning into a "Why don't you love me like you love her!" scene.

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Old 08-02-2011, 01:28 PM   #62
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Default Re: Who believes these movies are a metaphor on sexual orientions?

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I would argue that it's not just because it isn't part of the source material, cause someone in future X-Men comics could make an alternate universe where the two of them are lovers, and that story could actually work if done propperly, but the thing is that it doesn't really add to the "X-Men" storylines having them as gay characters, the default storyline of Charles and Erik is two people that should be together because they want the same thing, they just have really different approaches for it, the fact that they find themselves attracted to each other really wouldn't add much, plus sometimes, as is the case, friendships can be incredibly more intricate and intimate than other types of relationships.

And for Nell, the Storm-Wolverine relationship may have been scrapped, but I think it was badly scrapped, there were lots of traces of that in the script and the movie itself, for example the scene where Storm is trying to stop Logan from going to see Jean was barely seconds away from turning into a "Why don't you love me like you love her!" scene.
I cant bold your post from my phone, but your point about non romantic relationships being more complex is exactly what I am talking about. The fact that there are no romantic connotations between the character is exactly what makes it so complex and interesting. You make it a relationship about two people who want to be together, it cheapens and simplifies their entire dynamic.

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Old 08-02-2011, 03:06 PM   #63
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As a whole, I don't think that the movies, or comics, or cartoons, or any form of X-Men are specifically a metaphor on sexuality. However, it's relevant because the X-Men are symbolic for minorities in society that are shunned and oppressed simply for being different, and as such are feared and hated. That applies to blacks during the Civil Rights Era (and even women, Hispanics, Native Americans, or any other oppressed group), homosexuals in today's age, religious groups (Nazi Germany is directly showcased in X-Men lore).

I don't think the X-Men mythos targets one group specifically, but rather is a metaphor for the oppressed minority in general. There is a leaning towards homosexuality because that's what's relevant in today's society, and yes, Bryan Singer is gay himself. But I don't view these movies, or the comics, to be specific towards the homosexual plight.
The very first post answered the OPs question exactly right. Everything else is just a repeat.
The X-Men stand/represent what it means to overcome when others look down at you, don't accept you and/or disrespect you.
Homosexuality falls into that. Singer related to it, others in the 60's/70's could if you were black or a disrepected female in the workforce. Anyone who feels left out, that is who the X-Men and the "mutant" analogy is for.

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Old 08-02-2011, 05:12 PM   #64
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People, there is no way Erik and Charles were implied to be gay or about to start a gay relationship. Charles was hitting on women in pubs, Magneto was in bed with Raven. Nothing in the film hinted at anything sexual between the two men.

There's only a 'bromance' there in the sense of two guys working closely together and sharing their thoughts and feelings. The same 'they must be gay' thing was raised over and over with the Sherlock Holmes movie.

The assumption that two men who are close friends must be doing something sexual together is ridiculous. It's like me observing a guy and a girl from work go out to lunch together and assuming they must be banging each other senseless.

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Old 08-02-2011, 05:51 PM   #65
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People, there is no way Erik and Charles were implied to be gay or about to start a gay relationship. Charles was hitting on women in pubs, Magneto was in bed with Raven. Nothing in the film hinted at anything sexual between the two men.

There's only a 'bromance' there in the sense of two guys working closely together and sharing their thoughts and feelings. The same 'they must be gay' thing was raised over and over with the Sherlock Holmes movie.

The assumption that two men who are close friends must be doing something sexual together is ridiculous. It's like me seeing a guy and a girl from work go to lunch together and assuming they must be banging each other senseless.
What?? You're not banging your female coworkers senseless? What kind of workplace are you a part of???

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Old 08-02-2011, 05:59 PM   #66
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What?? You're not banging your female coworkers senseless? What kind of workplace are you a part of???
I know you're kidding with me, but you know what I mean, right? That there can be a natural assumption made from two people being seen in each other's company.

The same - but even more ignorant - assumptions mean that there are straight guys who won't hang around with anyone known to be gay (or who appears to be obviously gay) because they are worried people will think that they are gay too.

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Old 08-03-2011, 12:45 AM   #67
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I know you're kidding with me, but you know what I mean, right? That there can be a natural assumption made from two people being seen in each other's company.

The same - but even more ignorant - assumptions mean that there are straight guys who won't hang around with anyone known to be gay (or who appears to be obviously gay) because they are worried people will think that they are gay too.
Yes, I'm kidding with you, and yes, I know exactly what you mean.

A few years back, I was really good friends with this girl. I was always going over to her apartment, staying long hours and leaving late at night, going out to lunch or dinner with her, even taking her to doctor's appointments or taking her to pick up her daughter from school.

Everyone thought her and I had a thing going on, and that I wanted to snatch her from her at the time boyfriend.

The actuality was, our relationship was very brother / sister. She was like my big sister to me, and looked out for me, and I was her little brother to her, and took care of her and watched out for her. Never once at any point in time have her or I ever had a romantic feeling for each other.

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Old 08-04-2011, 08:21 AM   #68
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I can't tell if the first line is meant to be sarcastic or not... I mean the very fact that X3 has 73 and Spider-Man has 70 is pretty telling of how inaccurate RT is on this stuff.
Just the users rating.

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