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Old 08-01-2011, 08:51 PM   #251
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Default Re: The Official Captain America: The First Avenger Review Thread! - Part 1

Anyone else hope they bring back dum dum dugan to the present so he can work for shield?

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Old 08-01-2011, 09:19 PM   #252
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Default Re: The Official Captain America: The First Avenger Review Thread! - Part 1

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Cap sure brings out the "a little to obsessed with Nazi's" crowd of the geek community, as John Kovolic put it.
I don't know who John Kovolic is but he sounds like an imbecile.

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Old 08-01-2011, 09:41 PM   #253
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Default Re: The Official Captain America: The First Avenger Review Thread! - Part 1

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I'm honestly perfectly fine with the way it was handled. The Red Skull had a deaths head symbol on his hat, the red arm bands were there (and although only from the side, it didn't strike me as unnatural/a choice based on PC-ness). Adolf Hitler's name is mentioned more than once, and is obviously featured in the USO routine.

I wasn't so much worried that there weren't going to be Nazis as much as I was worried that their absence was going to feel very blatantly like a business decision. It didn't, to me.
Absolutely agree with this. The funny thing is, I was one of those worrisome guys in the pre-release period who was like, "Aren't we going to see Cap kick some Nazi ass?" It did matter to me, because I'm a big history buff and, let's face it, it's undeniably fascinating to study one of the most inhumane regimes in history. But in the end, it didn't matter because this is a movie that is primarily about CAPTAIN AMERICA, not his enemies.

The bottom line is, they got the character absolutely perfect, thanks to a great performance by Chris Evans, the screenwriters - who understood the character - and Joe Johnston, who built a wonderfully entertaining, old-fashioned movie about a hero everyone can relate to around that script and that performance. Given that they did all that with such panache, and the fact that there are enough references to Nazis to illustrate the point (the swastika in the newsreel, armbands, during Red Skull's transformation, and the fact that HYDRA is referred to as "the Nazi deep science division)...that's plenty of Nazi for me, thank you very much. They put in as much as they need to establish the time period, serve the story and, because this is a business, sell toys, but they don't do it in a way that has a negative effect on the film itself, like, say, Batman & Robin did. I'm with Spider_Fan; this isn't "How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Nazis" (an appropriate movie reference to illustrate his point).

Now, the fact that HYDRA was in some sense a rogue organization within the Third Reich is a bit more complicated. You could make an argument that this goes against the way Red Skull was presented in comics, where he is clearly an agent of Hitler, whereas in the movie he wants to replace him. Obviously, since the real Nazi dictator would have tolerated no threats to his power, Hitler would have basically become an enemy of the Red Skull and desired his execution. In that sense, the Red Skull and HYDRA are almost at war with the Nazis as much as they're at war against the Allies.

That would be a BIG deviation from Red Skull's original characterization. Let me offer an analogy, and I'm curious to read your guys' views on it: is the way Red Skull and HYDRA are presented in this movie basically equivalent to Steve Rogers and the Howling Commandos taking up arms against American troops? It really didn't bother me, I still loved the movie, but I'm wondering whether anybody agrees with that statement. Also, I get that Steve is a loyal hero who would never do something like this, and Skull is a power-mad villain, but this analogy is simply to illustrate Red Skull's change of allegiance.

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Old 08-01-2011, 09:54 PM   #254
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Default Re: The Official Captain America: The First Avenger Review Thread! - Part 1

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Now, the fact that HYDRA was in some sense a rogue organization within the Third Reich is a bit more complicated. You could make an argument that this goes against the way Red Skull was presented in comics, where he is clearly an agent of Hitler, whereas in the movie he wants to replace him. Obviously, since the real Nazi dictator would have tolerated no threats to his power, Hitler would have basically become an enemy of the Red Skull and desired his execution. In that sense, the Red Skull and HYDRA are almost at war with the Nazis as much as they're at war against the Allies.
I never read the comics, so I had no pre-conceived notions of what The Red Skull should be (other than an evil Nazi).

One of the guys from the Modern Myth Media podcast (which I highly, highly recommend) put it very nicely: you know you're evil when you have no use for Adolf Hitler. Looking at it that way, I'm totally fine with the way HYDRA breaks off from the Nazi party.

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Old 08-01-2011, 10:11 PM   #255
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I don't really see how a power-hungry madman, once attaining ultimate power, would be loyal to anything but their own selfish desires and ambition. Once you're a god, everything else seems small in comparison.

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Old 08-01-2011, 10:12 PM   #256
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Default Re: The Official Captain America: The First Avenger Review Thread! - Part 1

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I never read the comics, so I had no pre-conceived notions of what The Red Skull should be (other than an evil Nazi).

One of the guys from the Modern Myth Media podcast (which I highly, highly recommend) put it very nicely: you know you're evil when you have no use for Adolf Hitler. Looking at it that way, I'm totally fine with the way HYDRA breaks off from the Nazi party.
I think that's true and I felt the same way. It worked with the old-fashioned vibe and the old-style villain, who only needed a top hat and a moustache to twirl. I thought Hugo's dialogue was a bit over the top, but I liked that, because again, it gives it that retro feel to have a clearly evil villain that the audience can boo and hiss.

I forget what the exact words were, but that part where Skull says something like, "We will change more than history, Dr. Zola. We will change...THE WORLD!" in that Werner Herzog accent is absolutely hilarious, especially when it's followed by the three anonymous henchman doing the "Hail HYDRA!" salute. It's all so ridiculous, but somehow, Hugo seems to make it work and you totally buy it in the context of the movie (I suppose it helps that the actual Nazis weren't much less ridiculous with their own salutes and personality cult). It's slightly cheesy, but in a fun way, and without descending into self-parody - just barely. It's a fine line Hugo walks, but he's never anything less than thrilling to watch as RS.

You hit the nail on the head Tom, although I might have phrased it slightly differently than those Modern Myth Media guys (technically, the Allies also had "no use for Adolf Hitler" ).

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Old 08-01-2011, 10:19 PM   #257
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the movies version of The Red Skull is better than the comics version in the sense that he is no longer an anonymous bellhop that Hitler chose to mold into a weapon .

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Old 08-01-2011, 10:27 PM   #258
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Default Re: The Official Captain America: The First Avenger Review Thread! - Part 1

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the movies version of The Red Skull is better than the comics version in the sense that he is no longer an anonymous bellhop that Hitler chose to mold into a weapon .
That classic origin does seem a little lame in retrospect. I can tell you, it would definitely ruin the movie version of Red Skull if we found out he was originally just some BELLHOP (in the same way it ruined Darth Vader to learn that he had once been a whiny little *****).

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Old 08-01-2011, 10:35 PM   #259
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Default Re: The Official Captain America: The First Avenger Review Thread! - Part 1

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I think that's true and I felt the same way. It worked with the old-fashioned vibe and the old-style villain, who only needed a top hat and a moustache to twirl. I thought Hugo's dialogue was a bit over the top, but I liked that, because again, it gives it that retro feel to have a clearly evil villain that the audience can boo and hiss.
That's exactly right.

I think a LOT of what lets this movie work is the WWII time period. Hitler is the closest thing to a real supervillain that has ever existed, it's near-universally accepted that he was pure evil. This makes it so much easier to sit back and enjoy the kind of villain Red Skull was portrayed as.

Nobody would want to see, say, a Spider-Man or Batman film with such a generically evil villain. It works for Cap because it's regarded as a simpler, more black and white time.

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Old 08-01-2011, 10:40 PM   #260
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I think a LOT of what lets this movie work is the WWII time period. Hitler is the closest thing to a real supervillain that has ever existed, it's near-universally accepted that he was pure evil. This makes it so much easier to sit back and enjoy the kind of villain Red Skull was portrayed as.

Nobody would want to see, say, a Spider-Man or Batman film with such a generically evil villain. It works for Cap because it's regarded as a simpler, more black and white time.
'Nuff said!

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Old 08-01-2011, 11:41 PM   #261
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Default Re: The Official Captain America: The First Avenger Review Thread! - Part 1

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What does that mean?

I am of course a Red Skull fan and he's a comic book villain. It's ok to be a big fan of a character like that.

Has it been released internationally yet?
It means there are still people pining for more swastikas and nazis. Has nothing to do with liking Red Skull (maybe).

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Old 08-01-2011, 11:44 PM   #262
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Default Re: The Official Captain America: The First Avenger Review Thread! - Part 1

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I don't know who John Kovolic is but he sounds like an imbecile.
Hes awesome.


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Old 08-02-2011, 12:01 AM   #263
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Default Re: The Official Captain America: The First Avenger Review Thread! - Part 1

More of a Nodwick fan myself.

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Old 08-02-2011, 12:04 AM   #264
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Default Re: The Official Captain America: The First Avenger Review Thread! - Part 1

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More of a Nodwick fan myself.
Thats certainly great too.

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Old 08-02-2011, 12:11 AM   #265
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I think weaving did a great job He never really acts the same thats what makes watching him a great treat.

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Old 08-02-2011, 01:04 AM   #266
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Default Re: The Official Captain America: The First Avenger Review Thread! - Part 1

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It means there are still people pining for more swastikas and nazis. Has nothing to do with liking Red Skull (maybe).
Yeah but what sucks is when people pull that 'why are you so obsessed with Nazis?' crap.

However you feel about the presence, or lack thereof, of Nazis in the movie, it's an easy to comprehend argument: people think Nazis are inherently cooler villains than HYDRA because they're

a) classic movie villains

and

b) real-life *******s

As fans of superhero movies we all understand how important getting the costumes right is. Nobody wants Captain America without his shield and nobody wants Nazi henchmen without swastikas. That, combined with perfectly justified concerns over whether the studio is going to whitewash things in the name of political correctness, makes it easy to understand why people weren't completely satisfied when the first trailer came out and there was like 1/4 of a swastika in the background for half a second.

And on the other side of the fence are people who are perfectly fine with HYDRA. However you feel is a matter of opinion, but stop with the coy insinuations.

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Old 08-02-2011, 01:21 AM   #267
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Ok finally saw Capt America.Chris Evans did a very very good job as Cap. I was very surprised with his acting of such a character but i was impressed.He really did bring the essence of Cap and it showed.I do think they could have doenbetter with Buckys role in this movie,it seemed rather rushed and then bamm he's gone.Hayley Atwell did a very very good job and she was pretty hot.I think she and Evans did a great job of connecting their characters and it showed especially with the scene where they are giving their last goodbyes.You could feel the emotion in that scene.
Capt Amercia was wayyyy better than i thought it would be.Avengers is REALLY going to be something if they have the right storyline and these actors and actresses continue their acting at a high level.
SN:Havent really seen Mark Ruffalo in anything but he is going to have to bring it in Avengers.Just hoping they dont mess up Hulk.

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Old 08-02-2011, 01:59 AM   #268
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I still wish there was more Nazi's in the movie. Like the poster above me said, they are way cooler and far more interesting visually then Hydra.

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Old 08-02-2011, 03:32 AM   #269
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In the Silver Age comics, the Skull was not 100% faithful to Hitler and in fact Hitler was scared of him. He was always written as demonic, and some Golden Age stories have implied that the Skull was from hell. He's way more evil than any other comics villain, Joker included.

The Skull also ended up renouncing Nazism as he found it too merciful.


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Old 08-02-2011, 03:39 AM   #270
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In the Silver Age comics, the Skull was not 100% faithful to Hitler and in fact Hitler was scared of him. He was always written as demonic, and some Golden Age stories have implied that the Skull was from hell. He's way more evil than any other comics villain, Joker included.
The Skull was the pure distillation of evil in the comics. When I was a little kid he scared the crap out of me, in all his four-color glory. One of the creepiest things was that gas he used on people that killed them and made their faces turn into red, grinning skulls just like his own face. The Skull probably had the highest body count of any villain before the writers started introducing mass killers like Thanos and Dark Phoenix. Not that he wouldn't have killed billions if he could, but he simply never had the means.

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Old 08-02-2011, 03:56 AM   #271
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The Skull was the pure distillation of evil in the comics. When I was a little kid he scared the crap out of me, in all his four-color glory. One of the creepiest things was that gas he used on people that killed them and made their faces turn into red, grinning skulls just like his own face. The Skull probably had the highest body count of any villain before the writers started introducing mass killers like Thanos and Dark Phoenix. Not that he wouldn't have killed billions if he could, but he simply never had the means.
Yeah, and Joker had years of "just" being a crook with a clown/comedy gimmick...Red Skull was always a demonic killer. Of course, part of that was that Timely's comics were always more violent than DC's, but Skull was menacing whenever he appeared.

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Old 08-02-2011, 10:25 AM   #272
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I never did care about there being visible swastikas in the movie. This is a Cap movie, granted it takes place during the war, but it's also the Marvel Universe. Hydra are Nazis and we saw plenty of them, as well as heard the name Hilter a few times. I don't need to see swastikas to get that it's WWII, if I was to see a bunch of those waved around I'll watch Saving Private Ryan (an actual accurate WWII film).

They did great of saying Nazis are very present, and subliminally you know they are there, they just upgraded to the Hydra division.

This was the Marvel Universe....at least until this movie was being made.



Look...it's obvious that a major shift was done for this movie. But why belittle those who are asking "why"?? H.Y.D.R.A. was a creation of Stan Lee and Kirby in Strange Tales circa 1965. Before then, having Cap beat the stew outta guys with Swastikas was what you, me and everybody reading this, was brought up on since we were kids. So why be so condescending to folks who are a little peaved.

Now...having said all of that....I loved the movie and will see it again! It was outstanding. I just said, "What heck.." go with it.


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Old 08-02-2011, 11:09 AM   #273
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Default Re: The Official Captain America: The First Avenger Review Thread! - Part 1

Heh, long time coming but here is my review:

3.5/4

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This is a great, old fashioned popcorn movie that provides an engaging story, an excellent villain, some thrilling action along with an enticing recreation of the 1940's that goes a long way in setting apart the familiar origin formula from the rest of the pack.
http://cinematicriddles.wordpress.co...first-avenger/

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Old 08-02-2011, 11:16 AM   #274
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Default Re: The Official Captain America: The First Avenger Review Thread! - Part 1

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Anyone else hope they bring back dum dum dugan to the present so he can work for shield?

Not really...

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Old 08-02-2011, 11:35 AM   #275
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I finally saw the movie last night with some family members and admittedly I had chills during the movie. At one point I got chills with the scene when Steve and all the captured soldiers returned to base. The way it was filmed just moved me in a way, and the music helped to make it so awesome.

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There was just so much I loved and at the end my little cousin really surprised me because I never realized that he actually liked The Avengers to a degree. At the end he was saying how Captain America was the greatest and I knew that he meant he was the leader and the most respected, and it shows just how great the movie was for a kid to have understood how great he was. It was one of the best experiences I ever had at the movies!

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